| Author | Message | ||
     Revz |
...from the Cycle World article. Was it fair enough with the information that was allowed to be published? Any glaring items which should have been mentioned? | ||
| Crusty |
Any glaring items which should have been mentioned? I'm sure there are plenty; but Steve Anderson can't violate his non-disclosure agreement without some heavy legal consequences. Also, there are probably some things that would hurt or otherwise impact third parties, and that wouldn't be the right thing to do. Almost everybody I've met who is associated with Erik has been a cut way above the average in the way that they treat people. I've never met Steve Anderson, but I have no doubt whatsoever that his level of integrity is on a par with what I've come to expect. | ||
| Davegess |
That story is spot on. We left some of what we knew out of the book as it was meant to be a celebration not an attack. Steve nails it. There are some gory details (the whole story behind the MV purchase could cost HD a ton of money and really hurt their reputation with investors) that Steve is legally obligated to not talk about. The whole Blast tale is a sad commentary on how inefficient the engine building part of HD is. That bike should have sold for 500 less and made a profit but Cap Drive is so inefficient that they can't build an engine for anywhere near where they should be. | ||
| Ratbuell |
but Cap Drive is so inefficient that they can't build an engine for anywhere near where they should be. ...which might be part of the reason the MoCo lost...what was it, $800? - for every Blast sold at full retail MSRP. Such a shame. The guys and gals who *know* how to do it right (and that's not even counting ELVIS!) get shuttered without warning, and the beancounters and the company they run - only because it's been around for over 100 years - get to keep going, and producing "new" bikes like the Forty-Eight. <sigh> | ||
| Crusty |
You know; the Titanic is just sitting there. I wonder why it's stopped? The water is calm, and I don't see anything wrong... | ||
| Court |
Steve did a marvelous job. He spoke only the truth and stated only things that were supported by no less than 3 sources. There is much more that will be said. All in good time. Meanwhile . . . . . it's time to let history take care of itself and to focus on the future. Court | ||
| Crackhead |
I was wondering why the other versions of the Blast that Erik talked about never happened. But I understand why now. | ||
| Reg_kittrelle |
I know that this is not something that will be popular hereabouts, but it's been nagging at me for several days. I enjoyed the article, found it enlightening, and believe most of what I read. However ...and this is a big one... it does not reflect good journalism. To wit, Anderson was a Buell employee and an ex-CW staffer. Secondly, where is the other side of the story? My sentiments rest on the Buell side, but the case is best served by a full exploration of both sides of the issue. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Well, Steve does clearly state early in the article that he can't really be considered an impartial journalist. I guess the other side of the story is HD stating that Buell has always been unprofitable. Agreed though- it's a pity the complete story in all its details can't be brought to light, at least not yet. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Well, you could argue that the CW piece *was* the other side of the story. Harley announced the closing and offered up a self contradictory story about focusing on core competencies and reaching a younger generation. A pretty lame answer even by normal corporate double speak standards... "Our plan is to wait until somebody puts our cheese back". As a stock holder, I wasn't impressed, and fired them that day. | ||
| Reg_kittrelle |
I too have not been impressed by Harley's response. Which is all the more reason why their side of things needs to be revealed. I tried ...for a couple of months... to get an interview with Wandell; didn't happen. I lack the cred to get Wandell's attention. It will take (if it ever happens)a journalist of much higher standing than myself. I am convinced that Harley has crossed a threshold in its long history, and it is not one which they wished to cross. It is easy to blame the economy for their woes, but I believe it is the insular nature of the compay's culture that has caused them their greatest problems. Couple this insularity with Wandell's typical corporate arrogance, and you have a situation that is going to get even nastier. Harley's stock is doing quite well, but I do not believe this mirrors the real situation. | ||
| Court |
Steve was in a pickle much like Reg is when writing about BattleTrax and, true to the journalistic excellence both are known for, could not have been more up front. I've stayed clear, except to say that I think Harley-Davidson, from the perspective of a shareholder, make a foolish move. Even when an "unnamed source" within HD sent me a collection of photos and engineering data on some Buell projects that were confidential and never to see the light of day, I saw it as a disgruntled employee (I hope she's now gruntled again) or at the very least a chance to get myself in hot water. Many of us . . my wife (who's friends in NYC are making HD news today) included . . have irons in many fires. From the perspective of Buell and being a Buell enthusiast, I think HD did me the biggest personal favor they could do by setting Erik free of the same stupidity that took several very good Buell projects down. Be mindful that by closing day . . Buell would have saved money by walking into Hal's buying the pieces, one by one, for a Blast motor and assembling it themselves. And folks as why the Blast was not a money maker . . pure and simple bureaucratic bungling, idiots marking territory (the fairing-less 1125R calls out) like dogs marking trees and failure to be able to see that the Buell market and the HD market were not the same. I suspect there is much more to say and that many folks, myself included, could only make trouble and get folks in trouble if paperwork and "evidence" started flying around. My personal take remains focus on the future, not the past. Steve did a nice job of consolidating a lot of "non-confidential" information that folks (a minimum of 3 for each item) were willing to share. There are many folks thirsting and asking for information and I enjoyed the article. Steve's a top notch writer, engineer and person who knows what he's talking about. Folks like that. My bet is that within the next 24 months there will be some HUGE news at Harley-Davidson that will reveal a great deal of the dynamics that led to Buell announcing a new world headquarters one accounting period and being shut down the next . . . if we're lucky, and HD beats some others who may be asking questions, we'll even get some light shed on the commercially unexplainable MV Agusta debacle. If you need entertainment while you wait them out . . . try explaining to your wife or someone who will listen why you'd pay $109,000,000 for a company that last sold for $1.00 and has nearly no remaining market . .look at it this way . . no matter what you come up with I’ll bet it makes more sense that any explanation HD is ever going to allow to be made public. The bodies have now departed to “pursue other interests”. More will go. | ||
| Reg_kittrelle |
Let my clarify, I have no issue with what Steve wrote, or his journalistic integrity. What he offered was an excellent insider's perspective. My point is that I believe Cycle World should have endeavored to include Harley's side of the issue. | ||
| Court |
Gotcha. That's helpful. I'd not be the least bit surprised to find Steve extended that offer. I do not know ANY FACTS surrounding that. Pure speculation on my part. They, at least it appears, seem to be struggling to offer a reasonable explanation. The "too integrated", at least with respect to the water cooled products, was so stupid that it provided no value beyond entertainment. I suspect the folks who are asking, that HD wishes would go away, may not. The Buell discussion will fade with time. Someone however is going to have to account to shareholders (if not the SEC) for MV Agusta. The Buell decision, love it or hate it, can be attributed to commercial stupidity as the commercial giant, now blindfolded by the loss of experienced industry specific executive talent, stumbles aimlessly in search of that elusive "core market". Given that most the folks currently at the helm have never seen that core market . . I expect the quest to find it to grow progressively more entertaining. The possible saving grace is that we'll perhaps get to see some middle aged folks dressed in some silly leather clothes before it's over. The MV deal doesn't go away that easy. | ||
| Rohorn |
Pardon my ignorance of corporate indentured servitude and the consequences, but exactly how much trouble would a person get in for talking? I'm under the impression that a lot of those people don't have to worry about getting fired. Again. And how much would it cost H-D to do anything about it anyway? OK - so they suddenly have the budget for unprofitable ventures. My guess is that H-D's side of the story, carefully spun, will compare what they did to dropping any previous model line, like the FXR. | ||
| Court |
I think you reinforce Reg's point nicely . . . fact is . . NONE of us know. We are all . . . from varying perspectives . . in the "my guess is" category. Steve was the first to shed some light and provide substantiated (he was so careful it was almost funny) facts about the relationship. | ||
| Davegess |
My point is that I believe Cycle World should have endeavored to include Harley's side of the issue I would agree but all I think you would hear is the corporate line that has been repeated over and over. Wandell has them circling the wagons. CW may have wanted to avoid giving the Motor Company any real idea of what was coming; I would not be surprised if CW is getting some serious crap from H-D's legal department as we speak. If they had been aware of what was going to be said they may have made it difficult for Hoyer to go ahead with the story. Interesting how many here are concerned about H-D's future. some are POd and what them to suffer but more seem concerned about what this type of decision making reveals about H-Ds future prospects. I'm all for going to India but it will be 20 years before they buy 100,000 Harleys a year. H-D needs a different plan. I am with Court, this may be the best thing for Erik as a designer (I know it has been very painful for him as a person). I am pretty sure he will spin this into a super new lilne of coll street bikes just as soon as the legal cuffs come off. | ||
| Reg_kittrelle |
" . . . try explaining to your wife or someone who will listen why you'd pay $109,000,000 for a company that last sold for $1.00 and has nearly no remaining market . .look at it this way . . no matter what you come up with I’ll bet it makes more sense that any explanation HD is ever going to allow to be made public. The bodies have now departed to “pursue other interests”. More will go" (per Court) And yet, Matt Levatich, the ex-prez & managing director of MV, was promoted to his his current position of president and COO of The Motor Company. Strange days. | ||
| Court |
>>>Strange days. Strange indeed. He . . .well he actually never HELD the reins, let's say he looked at them for about 90 days. Matt, to the best of my BEST GUESS, wasn't involved in what I GUESS went down. I see the MV Agusta deal as quite similar to someone telling me they bought a good used 1996 S1 for $86,000. I'd pretty quickly surmise there is something to the transaction that I'm missing. I've got things to do and could care less how it plays out. But . . . like the bar scene in Star Wars . . the MV Agusta transaction may attract Imperial attention. Matt was "in control" of MV Agusta to about the extent I was "in control" of Buell during my brief tenure. I'll bet there are some stranger days . . far stranger . . in the future. There will also be a fun period of time as folks, now in fear of being in that next wave of "released management employees" have their jaws unlocked. Juneau . . . again MY GUESS based on anecdotal conversations with folks there . . is gripped in fear. You can ask them what they want for lunch and get a "I'll tell you but you can't tell a soul . . really, you can't" response. It's kinda cute for a bunch of folks who just a couple years ago couldn't shut up and were in their "Buell will get something HD doesn't have over my dead body" [Dennis M - February 1997]phase. . . I was at a party in Milwaukee Saturday and some of the HD folks are still bothered that I ended up with a copy of all the e-mails, documents and the video from M.I.T. and the Harvard Faculty Club. I also kept the display their marketing consultant did showing the FZR with "BUELL" on the side . . 5 months and they thought Buell was the "shirts arm of Harley" . . no clue there was a Buell motorcycle. Who'd have guessed? Strange indeed and getting stranger . . . | ||
| Reg_kittrelle |
You could sell popcorn to this one. | ||
| Court |
>>>>You could sell popcorn to this one. That's an accurate statement . . . And . . . dare I say . . . "you ain't seen NOTHING yet". | ||
| Court |
P.S. - Yet another one of the highly skilled Elves started the first day of his new job today. This was the best news I've had all day. | ||
| Road_thing |
Hey, I've got a good used '96 S-1 I'll sell for $85,999... rt | ||
| Revz |
Thanks Court for the candid response(s). I really wasn't looking for dirt, just wanted to know if there was a good attempt to write a fair article. The restraint in the writing was evident, but I'm glad to hear you say it was fair as can be expected for now... btw, Some time ago I really trashed the (new) Buell advertising campaign. The passage of time makes one (me) feel uninformed and naive. I've been on the other side, the biting your lip and taking it for the company side before and it wasn't fun. I apologize to Buell et al, for my comments about their (H-D's) inflicted advertising campaign... Unfortunately it appears there are quite of people still left who are in the biting lip phase at H-D Bottom line, you're absolutely right, best not to try to drive forward while looking in the rear view mirror, there is so much great stuff out ahead... Thanks again... | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Boy, sure got someone's attention at the mother ship.....   | ||
| Spiderman |
Wandell-holes comments about Erik and his 'racing' and about Buell in general are enough of the other side of the story I need. But then again I am still a little peeved LOL | ||
| F_skinner |
Yet another one of the highly skilled Elves started the first day of his new job today. Great news. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Notone... you can have both MV and the people that thought buying it was a good idea... Both are cheap and looking for a home right now.  | ||
| Court |
>>>>PERHAPS A CLUE AS TO WHAT MAKES MV A SALABLE ASSET TODAY Obviously a fairly obscure clue as MV AGUSTA has been out there for sale now for going on 6 months and there has not been a single expression of interest. Harley-Davidson, after seeing no one was interested, placed the sale with a broker and the sale price, just like the Buells they sold for $4,000, is "anything anyone will pay". Frankly . . . given their financial predicament and the outstanding tax obligations. . . buying MV Agusta, apparently in the eyes of properly qualified suitors, is akin to wedding a ••••• with aids. Face it. . . . it's worthless. I remain eager to be proven wrong. |
