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Court
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2010 - 09:32 am: | 
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By the way . . . at least two of the folks who were involved in the purchase may be gone from Harley-Davidson but I suspect they won't be leaving the county.
Questions are being asked.
The deal that looked "unbelievable" . . . well, likely was.
We'll see how far folks push. |
Davegess
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2010 - 11:07 am: |
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I'm with Court on this one. We will see just what H-D can get for MV. They are into it for about 200 million bucks at this point. They assumed all the debt that Proton got rid of when they sold it back to the Italians.
Yes that 1 Euro sale "price" is misleading. The Italians assumed the debt that Proton had accumulated by owning MV so while Proton got nothing the got rid of a bunch of negatives. The Italian banks fully intended to try and unload the debt on others and they found a sucker in H-D.
MV has some great new bikes; which cost H-D close to 100 million dollars (just an educated guess BTW), and bike sales are way up but those sales started with nothing so a big percentage jump is statistical masturbation. I belief it is very difficult to sell enough of these very expensive sport bikes to make a profit. H-D has shown you can sell very expensive Harley’s but Bimota has always struggled (how many times have they shut down?), and Ducati uses the expensive bikes to add luster to the less expensive models that actually pay the bills. How many owners has Ducati had? They are not exactly lighting the world on fire with profits.
I see two companies that have had real success at the very high end of the MC market, H-D and BMW. They both have a heritage that stretches back more than 80 years AND the bikes they make appeal to a different customer than do the sport and standards that everyone else makes. Ducati makes a different bike BUT it is still a narrowly focused sport bike so it is going head to head with GSXR’s.
MV will be a tough sell. |
Court
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2010 - 11:23 am: |
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>>>Yes that 1 Euro sale "price" is misleading. - I agree.
MV has some great new bikes - I agree.
MV will be a tough sell. - I agree.
Does anyone know of ANYONE who has expressed any interest?
Don't get me wrong . . . I love the looks of the bikes and think they are dead sexy and, like Ducati, have the poop to back up the looks.
But . . like selling $200,000 cars . . it's just a thin market. Look at the folks who won't buy an 1125R for $10,000 or a 1089 for $14,000.
We have a good two years left of this crap economy and I'm just hoping that the Chinese and Indians don't become the pre-eminent manufacturers. |
Wolfridgerider
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2010 - 01:57 pm: |
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Reading this is almost as much fun as going on liberty in Rio on payday with a pocket full of rubbers...... NEXT!!
almost |
Davegess
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2010 - 08:50 pm: |
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I, and I am sure Court, think MV's are great. We just don't think the company is very sound as a business. I wish it was actually, the world can use more sexy italians. |
Fuzzz
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2010 - 09:08 pm: |
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Not sure if I should chime in here, but:
The "tenuous" connection is HD(spit)...
No one is putting down MV motorcycles...
Everyone is trying to figure out what kind of shady dealings went on in HD(spit) to buy a mc company that was so deep in debt..(MV)
Every here is trying to figure out why HD(spit)would stop producing motorcycles that were just reaching their stride without a valid reason, just a lot of excuses, and why they would pay more to shut down Buell than they have spent in all the years they held the purse strings, instead of selling them, and recovering the imaginary losses.
It seems to me that someone should be investigated by whatever government agency takes care of "suspicious" business deals. |
Rohorn
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2010 - 11:45 pm: |
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Look at why Proton were interested in the first place. It's all over the Internet.
Great suggestion! So I did:
There were no operational, engineering, and technological synergies between Agusta and Proton. This has been independently confirmed by Proton’s appointed advisers. Proton manufactures cars for the masses while Agusta manufactures motorcycle,” the company said
From: http://anilnetto.com/accountability/proton-sold-mv -augusta-for-1-euro-harley-buys-it-for-us109m/
I guess there must be something wrong with that author's motives as well.
The author doesn't go into MV's horsepower claims, either. |
Bluzm2
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 12:04 am: |
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I think we should track their IP address, me smells a rat... |
Crusty
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 06:13 am: |
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Fuzzz
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 07:58 am: |
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Well, notonedollar has been removed from the roll call, they seemed like a putz anyway.... |
Wolfridgerider
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 08:44 am: |
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notonedollar,
I'm afraid life is not that simple.
In the case of MV, I'd be fairly certain HD would not be in a position
to close down MV and put nearly a thousand strong Italian workforce on
the unemployment queue. That and in part place an array of local and
national businesses in the supply chain at risk.
The Italian government would certainly have looked at the HD purchase
of MV and would need to have been satisfied Italian jobs would be
protected. You can bet this is in part why MV is proving hard to sell.
Not that the product or the business model is a problem, but that the
risk of compensating for closure is more costly than just a fire sale
and shutting the doors forever.
It's also worth remembering HD's acquisition of MV was previous to the
global recession. Worthy of mention too is what are we not being told.
It's no secret that MV are in the final stages of production testing a
600cc triple. There's a coincidence? One has to wonder in better times
if someone had the idea to build engines to power Buells, rather than
buy them in. I suspect there are some around here that are happy to
see MV in the firing line, and criticize HD for the purchase of MV,
but do you really believe HD purchased MV to give HD a foothold in
Europe to sell Harleys. Do me a favor. Look at what MV do. They don't
simply buy parts in from outside sources and screw them together to
make a motorcycle. Look at why Proton were interested in the first
place. It's all over the Internet. So yeah, if you believe MV are
worthless, don't let me stop you. |
Wolfridgerider
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 08:45 am: |
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and another...
Posted by Notonedollar on Tuesday, April 06, 2010 - 05:55 pm:
It's rather pitiful a well learned man would go out of his way to put
MV down.
Why would someone do that when at best a tenuous link is all that
connected MV to Buell. And why try and sell it here constantly. What's
the point. |
2tracksam
| | Posted on Thursday, April 08, 2010 - 03:48 am: |
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I read the article today and found it as well written and objective as others mentioned. If I had any HD stock left I'd probably sell it just cause or maybe wait to see if a LBO happens.
Making bad investment choices and not seeing the home mortgage equity situation, market size leveling, and general economic cycle is suspect management that predates those currently in charge (that's not a defense).
Forcing a division to buy components at elevated pricing or costs that are the result of inefficient operations isn't on the surface the best practice, however it may have helped spread those inefficiencies out to keep Capital Drive open and running by spreading out these costs and helping the overall corporate bottom line. These are similar accounting practices that could have been used to show any division or subsidiary profitable or not.
Not seeing the value in motorsports is in my opinion short sighted given the history of Harley. But objectively does the average rider of HD's today have any idea of the "Wrecking Crew", where the HOG name really originated or what the heck a KR, a VR1000 or who Joe Leonard, Steve Morehead or the "Springer" is. Screaming Eagle is a cool logo and chrome that makes more noise. If you determine this is not what your customer base is interested in, why invest limited dollars in those activities?
One thing missed in all the discussion is the team put together to look at the market and determine the best return when using the corporations dollars when it came to the Buell and Harley core market.
I've the (mis?)fortune of doing the same thing that lead to a similar decision - shut down the division I was working in. (Those of us who did the study were immediately isolated and shipped off to other divisions as we were promised jobs regardless of the outcome, I left the company as did two others within a few months. One remained and ended up moving into a bottle.) Leadership decided on the slow approach as opposed to the "big bang", this really bled people as hopes of a never possible revival wore them down.
My heart goes out to those folks who (according to the article) objectively did what was asked, reported the findings, and saw those findings become action. This must have been tough on those who must have had passion for Buell. Some times Business Sucks.
Let's hope this becomes one of those great American from the ashes stories. |
Rex
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2010 - 01:36 pm: |
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When HD bought MV Augusta,it was probably a good deal. Look how much other companies have spent just to get a company started and a prototype put together. 100,000,00 or 200,000,000 million dollars might have been small considering what they had. The models out there, the new models to come. They all look pretty good this year. I think the world economy put the big hurt on things, and then business decisions had to be made. the problem was their decision on Buell. The money they invested was small considering what they had. they were just in a cutting mode, and had people making decisions based on others peoples study. Buell should have been sold to someone else. they could have saved the mark down money, they could have had cash in hand, and the brand would still be going.. They could have made a deal to get a certain percent of sales for the next 5 years, etc. Too bad |
Pso
| | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2010 - 10:02 am: |
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Wolfridgerider-Good points to contemplate. When MV purchase went through I was thinking "O Boy" now Buell will have an engine in-house, versus purchasing from outside sources or useing that thunderstorm engine, that would do what he wants. O well just my fantasy at the time. I am not a follower of MC racing but isn't MV doing very well right now on the track? If not please forgive my not knowing. |
Jim2
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 06:50 pm: |
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Where have I heard this before?
"According to Proton, it wants to put the matter to rest as it needs to move forward to focus on its core business,"... |
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