| Author | Message | ||
     Endoman33 |
Can we blame the magazine journalist for a small part of HD's pulling the plug on Buell Motorcycle company. Maybe,maybe not. Some stories have been negative, some stories have a few pluses but most have as many negatives. Until recent stories on the 1125CR most editors have not been favorable towards Buells. I didnot say all just most. | ||
| Mikej |
You might as well blame everyone who never bought one. Every brand and every model of motorcycle has probably had a negative review written about it. So unless you are proposing that there was a coordinated effort by a unified group of writers to write negative reviews then you can't really blame them individually. If anything there is often talk of magazine writers writing fluffy positive articles about their advertiser's products, in which case you still couldn't really blame them for the shutdown. I wasn't in any planning meetings at H-D corporate, I also wasn't in attendance at any board of directors meetings where this might have been discussed or decided so I don't know of any specific individuals that you could point a blaming finger at. Blame the economy. | ||
| Teddagreek |
Blame Corporate mentality | ||
| Endoman33 |
just trying to add some light hearted fun for the Buell support, need a good laugh no and again | ||
| Jammin_joules |
Blame the people who didn't demo ride a Buell or go make an offer on one at a dealership that allowed for a reasonable profit on the sale so that the dealer ordered a replacement in 2009 from Buell. | ||
| Endoman33 |
+1000000000 Jammin_joules | ||
| Thespive |
Why is it always the magazine guy's fault?  --Sean | ||
| Court |
Magazine had nothing to do with anything. Only a small number of folks who own/ride motorcycles read motorcycle magazines. I haven't subscribed to one in over 5 years. | ||
| Mikej |
The last magazine I bought was a copy of The Economist. | ||
| 4cammer |
I blame the dealers and the lack of support from HD. Plain and simple. They had no idea what they had or how to sell it, if they even had the desire. IMO. The magazines have their individual bias, and that did not do the brand any good, but if you are not a Duc or one of the big four good luck. They (most of the bike mags) play to the Gixxer, stretched 'busa and wannabe Ben Spies fellas. Oh, and the chrome and fringe crowd as well. Go to a well stocked magazine rack and take a look at the Brit magazine Performance Bikes. More in one issue than a year of Motorcyclist. | ||
| Xbrad9r |
I know Endoman33 and have talked to him several times, he is one of the best reps I have seen at a dealership...he has a nicely modded firebolt and an 1125r that he now rides and I think he still has a tuber as well, and he always has a Buell jacket draped over his chair at his desk. His dealership was a sponsor of a local Buell racing team. He was one of the few guys that knew Buell and was enthusiastic about talking to Buell customers instead of pointing to the bikes and walking away. If their were more guys that got it like he did, their would be more Buells on the road right now. | ||
| Fmaxwell |
No way do I blame the magazines. There have been both positive and negative reviews and articles on Buell motorcycles. When the journalists ride a motorcycle that has fuel injection problems, excessive heat, and reliability issues, are they supposed to lie about it? The reviews of the latest 1125CR have been very positive because the problems were worked out. Buell is out of business because Harley had no interest in selling Buell -- or MV Agusta -- motorcycles. They viewed Buell as an entry into the youth market that they were quickly losing touch with. They wanted the younger crowd to start coming into HD dealers and to eventually buy HD bikes. It was obvious. Most HD/Buell dealers had no significant inventory of Buell parts or accessories. You want a Buell tank bag, jacket, or heated grips? Then you better know that they exist when you get to the dealer, ask for the part, place it on special order without ever having seen it, and come back to get it in a week or so. Meanwhile, the Harley guy next you at the accessories counter is asking to see the chrome plated skull valve stem caps -- no, not the ones with the red eyes, the ones three pegs lower with the light-up eyes just above the medium sized gold plated skull valve stem caps. You could get Harley Davidson coffee mugs, Nazi style half helmets with Harley logos, and tank tops with pink Harley logos and pockets for Marlboros and Bic lighters. But you probably couldn't get a Buell helmet or leather riding jacket. And the Buell oil filter you wanted? Well that might be a special order, too. It's sad, but it's totally the fault of HD. | ||
| Mikej |
I don't agree that Harley had no interest in selling Buells, if that were the case they never would have bought them, not allowed and supported them in a separate facility. I have no doubt that there were differences of opinion on how things should be done, but I also have no doubt that there was generous support of the Buell brand over the years by the parent corporation. Without the corporate support you would have seen Buell close with the end of the tube frame line of bikes. There is more to come. Much more. And at this point the politics emerge and I step out of this discussion. Instead of looking for someone or something to point at and blame I think we might be better served by looking for what's to come and preparring for stormy seas as we sail towards new shores and harbors. Though hungry and battered, the resiliant will persevere one way or another. Perhaps someone would be good enough to post a picture of the Buell motto or slogan or rules to live by or whatever they are called. Thank you, Good day. | ||
| Chadhargis |
I really wouldn't blame the dealers either. It's marketing, plain and simple. Harley dealerships are set up to do what they do....sell Harley Davidson motorcycles, clothing, and accessories. Every HD dealership I've been in has been nice, clean, and VASTLY large. Lots of things on display. One local HD dealer even has a restaurant built into it. The only downside is that sport minded riders aren't going to visit a Harley dealership. Unless someone was expressly going to look at a Buell, they never went there. Bumpus is a GREAT dealer, and I honestly would have never gone there if not for Buell. I would have missed getting to know a bunch of great folks. The Hondakawayammasuzki shop right across the street from Bumpus is where I would go to browse bikes, take demo rides, look for gear, etc. I'm not a bike snob. If you want to ride a cruiser, you're still a rider to me. Same with a dirt bike or a scooter. As long as you ride, you're good in my book. I have no problem associating with people who choose different riding lifestyles than I do. But that's not the case with a great number of people. They don't get into motorcycles to ride. It's a social activity. Sport riders are no different. I've seen lots of blinged out chrome butt jewelry sport bikes. Those people spend a LOT of money on their bikes. And when they go to buy a bike, they aren't going to a Harley shop. The thought never crosses their mind. Someone who wants a track bike or a reasonably priced sporting motorcycle isnt' going to go to a Harley shop. I teach MSF courses, and the new riders who see my Buell almost universally ask, "What kind of bike is that?". They have no idea. I show the the fuel in frame, the ZTL brake, and explain the convenience of belt drive and they all like those concepts. They've heard of a Suzuki, Honda, Yamaha, Kawawaski, etc....because they saw those at the dealer they visited. They didn't want a Harley, so they never visited a Harley shop and never saw a Buell. HD should have franchised Buell dealers YEARS ago. Let me be sold alongside their competitors. Riders who want to ride a spec sheet aren't Buell customers. But REAL riders, given the opportunity to ride a Buell, typically like them. Especially the 1125 models. I can only imagine what would have happened if HD allowed Buells to be sold outside of Harley dealers. Harley dealers could buy a franchise just like anyone else, so it would not have hurt those dealers who supported the brand. Seeing an 1125R parked next to a Gixxer, CBR, etc.....I think would have generated a lot of Buell faithful after the test ride. (Message edited by chadhargis on October 28, 2009) | ||
| Fmaxwell |
I don't agree that Harley had no interest in selling Buells, if that were the case they never would have bought them, not allowed and supported them in a separate facility. Harley has no interest in selling glass display cases, but they buy those to adorn their dealerships, too. Sure, Buell had to produce real, functional motorcycles. The dealers had to offer them for sale. But if you were HD management and really wanted to sell Buell, wouldn't you require Buell dealers to stock things like tank bags, grips, and a bit of Buell apparel? Wouldn't you require that they have more than two Buells on the floor? I would. Harley's strategy with Buell has been to use them to draw customers into HD dealers. Either that, or it's the most incompetent handling of a motorcycle brand that I could imagine. | ||
| Chadhargis |
It's easy to Monday morning quarterback the closing of Buell, but I think it's undeniable that the brand was mis-marketed. I can't count the number of times I've heard people commiserate about how they were treated at dealers who weren't good representatives of Buell. I can't help but think that in the years since HD bought Buell, someone, somewhere, didn't have the idea that they should expand the Buell dealer network outside of HD. (Message edited by chadhargis on October 28, 2009) | ||
| Jammin_joules |
As a dealer, I've seen most of the Buell riding gear on the shelves, and countless accessories in parts. But let me relate an experience over a Buell GPS. Apparently there was a Chicago area Buell dealer selling parts at 20% off, or some such value, and a Buell owner asked for the the 'best price' the dealer would go for on the one here in stock. He bought through the mail over $25 difference in cost on a $500 item. Or the customers who buy tires at a discount place 60 miles away then want them mounted here and complain when they won't balance because they are blemish tires with high spots and blame us for it. So what motivation do dealers have to inventory parts when they make little to no profit on them due to competition from internet sales which give you no support? I've seen customers bringing parts back that were wrong or no working properly that they bought elsewhere over the internet and installed themselves, perhaps improperly. They want local brick & mortar service with internet bargain bin prices. By and large, this is mostly a Buell phenomenon that is no where near as prevalent with Harley parts and customers. Minimum it is more obvious because Buell sales are so small compared to H-Ds in an given dealership. And this dealership is no slouch on Buell either. We sold 60% of all the Buells in a 19 dealership district year to date. We race them in several forms; drag, road and Pikes Peak, and several employees have owned them for years. We hold sport bike nites, parties to watch road racing in our dealership after hours, and we've had Bubba Blackwell here. I am not about blame, but understanding. It is my opinion that by and large the business plan was flawed; growth to quickly, too large was dialed in. Price points for profit to Buell on sales that could not be obtained 2004-2008. By example, since we've put Buells on sale, (and we are not doing the bargain bottom prices you see folks on this board share of one bike somewhere across the country) we've sold out and ordered more from Buell that are all pre-sold. We've sold more Buells in two weeks than all of 2008 or 2009. If prices were maybe $2 grand lower, would 1/3-rd of these recent buyers have bought? Could that kind of market action kept Buell going? How would East Troy have been structured of the volume target was in this range so that they could be profitable? Food for thought, or an academic exercise. | ||
| Jammin_joules |
By the way, without our existing parts dept, and previously trained Master Techs, I see no way that our Buell sales could have supported a stand alone store with the level of service that we offer both Buell and Harley products. We are open 7 days a week, until 6:30 at night. We do typical 5k services, tires, batteries, and other services with no appointment needed, while you wait. Selling 3 to 5 Buells a month in good months from years past, you are just not going to be able to employ, train and staff for this level of service. | ||
| Wesman |
Jammin- I agree 100% with everything you stated above. Folks not in tune with the realities of running a sales/service business always think it is a "simple" thing. Sadly if Buell had to stand on its own from early on (independant dealers etc) it would have been out of business long ago. I think Harley likes Buell and Erik, they had the cash to support him. They were even about to build him a new manufacturing facility. The realities of the bad economy bit them in the ass BAD and they are scrambling to save their own bacon. I feel really, really bad for Buell ( to the point of getting depressed when I think about it ). But I am sad for Harley too. They are worried for their future. Most companies offshored most of their manufacturing and I.T. departments a decade ago but Harley felt that was not an option for their products. If this economy continues you will either see Chinese Harleys or no Harleys. I could go on about the "race to the bottom" making a few Americans super rich but destroying the county but that's an economics lesson for another day. | ||
| Chadhargis |
Other than Harley, I can't think of any motorcycle brand that can survive with stand alone dealers. The local BMW dealer here tried for many years, and had the dealership in a auto repair shop the owner ran. BMW forced them to move to a dedicated shop. They ended up picking up Ducati and Vespa/Piaggio. The local Triumph shop sells Kawasaki, KTM, and and Honda too. Even the "big 4" Japanese makes are typically sold in multiline dealers. The trick to running a sales service business is to either sell the 800lb gorilla that everyone wants and hope that never changes, or diversify your product mix to attract a wide variety of customers. Most motorcycle shops in my area, also carry scooters, power equipment, ATVs, personal watercraft, trailers, and I've even seen some selling lawnmowers. Of course, they also sell gear too. Not just gear with the brand logo on it either, but brand names like Teknic, Joe Rocket, Scorpion, Arai, Shoei, Vanson, etc. If you can get a customer in the door and treat them right, then you win that customer's loyalty. If they need something you sell, they'll come buy from you even if it's a little more expensive. My Dad was in sales for years. He was a "relationship salesman". He used to say, "I don't know what I'll be selling, but I know who I'll be selling it to". There will always be people who shop by price alone, but it's enjoyable to do business with someone you like and who likes you. I know I'm not going to make anyone rich with my disposable income, but I do feel good about supporting my local businesses whenever I can. | ||
| Reg_kittrelle |
"Only a small number of folks who own/ride motorcycles read motorcycle magazines." Interesting statement, Court. What is a "small number?" | ||
| Court |
The figure that amazed me at the time and still lingers was "less than 30%". This was tossed about by the folks at HD Marketing in a meeting with Laughlin-Constable. The Harley guy seemed quite certain of it in support of running Buell ads in some "non industry" magazines. It was around 1999 when I heard that so I've no idea if it's still a good number. I'm sure someone in the industry must have some current stats. I long ago cancelled all my subscriptions but have continued to buy motorcycles . . . go figure. | ||
| Reg_kittrelle |
Again, interesting. | ||
| Court |
I'm not unaware that the figure likely dropped when you stopped publishing BATTLE 2WIN. I don't subscriber to any moto-mags but I do often times thumb back through old B2W issues. Coincidence? I think not. | ||
| Pso |
JamminJoules: You said about test riging a Buell, well I was not able to find a Harldey dalership around here in 06 or even 07 and 08 that would allow a test ride of any buells. They would only allow test rides of clapped out used Harleys. They said they did no tneed to offer test rides because sales would go out the door anyway on new bikes back in those years. | ||
| Svh |
Or the dealerships that require you to rent the bike to test it out. Never understood that. Can you imagine going to a Chevy dealer and being told you need to pay $$ to test drive that car. They would be in an even worse position than now. | ||
| Reg_kittrelle |
another perspective on test rides... There have been any number of instances wherein a rider will test ride a bike just to abuse the livin' snot out of it. Put yourself in the position of the GM or owner; would you really want to loan out $10K worth of machine to some of the people that walk thru the door? I hate to be considered one who actually sticks up for Harley, but their dealers are probably the easiest of all brands when it comes to snagging a test ride. | ||
| Chadhargis |
Most test rides I've been on have been escorted. Except for ones from dealers who know me. They know I wouldn't abuse the bike. Ride it fast, yes. But never abuse it. No wheelies, burnouts, stoppies, jumps, etc. | ||
| Jammin_joules |
We've been putting two or three Buells out with our test ride fleet every weekend since I can remember. The first 1125R was put out the very first Sat and that was posted on BWB for all of Colorado to come demo. Riders who bought at dealerships south of us some 100 miles came up to ride full well knowing I would never sell them a bike. And we have never put anyone on a demo ride escorted. You are an adult, if you act like it, that is good enough for us. We've taken Buells to the track and showed them off and invited customers suited to track riding to come try the 11125. I guess that is why four Buell dealers in our district dropped Buell over the last two years - we don't play by their rules. Another topic covered herein : I am not making a statement regarding the justification nor support of Wandell's decision to drop Buell but to those here who seem to imply Harley does not know how to answer to its owners, shareholders, or that the Motor Company is set for failure, consider the following. Also, realize people in charge of big money who are skilled at investing are the ones responsible for stock movement: HOG stock Oct 1 - Oct 28 $21-ish - $26.41 up over 10% during the same time the S&P500 is basically flat. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Joules, I think a good chunk of that bump was a result of a rumor that Honda was going to take over Harley because their financials were so bad. Also, if you watch the stock since they announced the Buell closure, its been down or flat. |
