| Author | Message | ||
     Skifastbadly |
I posted this over in Big Bad and Dirty (and AdvRider), but it was suggested that I put it in here as well. I have an 07 Uly with about 22K miles which I love but which has been problematic lately. My fan failed recently, and I took it into the Salt Lake City HD dealer for repair. The service manager pointed out that I needed to replace my head gaskets so I agreed. Soon after the repair, I moved to the Seattle area. Last week, I was riding the bike and there was a rapid increase of both noise and heat on my leg. I pulled over immediately, and noticed that the flange that secures the header to the front cylinder was completely off, it had slid down the pipe to where it joins the rear header. Well, I wasn't in the middle of nowhere, but pretty close. I managed to limp it back to a small town where there was a hardware store, purchased some nuts, and attached the flange. I thought I had solved the problem, but when I started the bike up it was just as loud. Further investigation (poking around with my finger) showed that the rear flange was likewise unattached. AND there seemed to be some kind of hole in the rear header. I got the bike home and took the following photos yesterday: http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w191/SkiFastBad ly/016.jpg http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w191/SkiFastBad ly/018.jpg http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w191/SkiFastBad ly/021.jpg As you can see, the O2 sensor pulled right out of the header and left a big hole. Now, are the facts that the header was unattached from the cylinders and the sensor broke off coincidental? I rather doubt it. I suspect that the headers were either never re-attached after the gaskets were replaced, or that they were improperly torqued. Now the bike's in a shop in Bellevue WA, where I'm going to have to pay to have this fixed, and then I'll have to go back to the Utah dealer and try and get him to pay for the repair. Since I'm dealing with two different dealers here, I'm concerned that I'll experience a bunch of finger pointing and denial, and end up eating the cost. So questions for you guys would be Have you ever seen anything like this before? Do you agree with my diagnosis on cause? Do you have suggestions for dealing with the shops? | ||
| Court |
You are in what we call a "pickle". I do not know the answer to any of your questions. I'll offer my GUESSES. Perhaps more learned and experienced folks will augment with some information. The simultaneous failure of both connections, in my mind, lends merit to the cause (trip to shop) and effect (failure). That's a guess. I have not seen a simultaneous failure of both. My best suggestion for dealing with the shop is tact and decorum. A copy of this post MAY help. Stick with the facts, accuse no one, ask for help not someone's head on a platter. Here's my PERSONAL OPINION. You are starting, if you think of this this as a ski slope, sitting in the lodge at the bottom of the hill. Your position frankly sucks. Use your skill and tact to see, you may not reach the summit, how far you can climb the hill of resolution. Can you get the dealer who did the work to split it with you? Your presentation of facts and tone have already put me on the side of WANTING to help. You're off to a good start. Court | ||
| Ratbuell |
I'd like to chime in here - but it's only worth what you've paid for it, lol. ASK the dealer who's in current possession of the bike to call the dealer who last serviced it, dealer to dealer. If you have your receipt from said dealer, so much the better (it will have date, mileage, etc. listed on it). An aside - is the bike under warranty? '07 could go either way.... Have them forward the photos if possible, or take their own to send (I would not mention postings on message boards - trust me, it immediately puts dealers on the defensive). Try and allow it to be handled, dealer to dealer. IF their service writers are properly tactful, they can present the case that "we have a good customer here who recently relocated to our area, and this is what we have going on", followed by an objective statement of fact. Working in a dealer (in Sales, not Service) I have *heard* that the header is much easier to remove from the bike if the sensor is removed first. That said, it is entirely *possible* that the sensor, and the header flanges, were improperly torqued. Overtorque on the sensor could cause the bung to remove itself from the header; undertorque could cause the flange nuts to come off; overtorque on the flanges could cause the studs to snap. Please note the multiple uses of "could". I wouldn't propose mentioning all those possibilities unless the first dealer is argumentative. Allow them the chance to say "OK, we'll be happy to cover it since we had hands on it last". Or something along those lines. FIRST STEP if they argue - call BCS and present your case, objectively. Alert them to the dealers involved, and any personnel you may have the information for. It sucks...but play it as hands-off as you personally can. Facilitate without pointing fingers. | ||
| Skifastbadly |
I appreciate the guidance above. I really love this bike. I really want to have faith in it and in the company. I want to continue to think I'm smart for buying this instead of an R1200GS. But the bike went out of warranty in August and since then I've had the voltage regulator, head gaskets, exhaust actuator, and rear bearings fail. With the exception of THIS episode, all those issues were known about by me thanks to this board and ADV. (Yeah, I should stay off the internets and do some actual work....). But this failure is SO weird. Who ever heard of metal fatigue after 21K miles? I shall endeavor to persevere and hope that the dealers work something out so I can continue my love affair with this temperamental woman... | ||
| Skifastbadly |
Just got a call from the dealer in Bellevue...One of the studs on the rear cylinder is broken. So they have to drop the engine to 'try to drill it out'. Shit.... | ||
| Reepicheep |
Not a big deal, I've drilled out studs twice successfully with the wrong tools. With the right tools (the Jims tool, which they no doubt have 4 of already), its nearly brainless and ends up being a pretty much perfect repair. I didn't even bother to helicoil either of my fixes, I just retapped. I figured if they pulled out (instead of shearing), I would then just drill bigger and helicoil. Neither repair did, and my holes were much messier then what the dealer with the Jims tool will get. And "dropping the engine" isn't dropping the engine, its removing a dozen or so connectors and bolts and rotating the engine forward in the frame. The first time I did it in the garage it took me about an hour, going slow and being obsessive. Somebody who has done it before could easily do it in 30 minutes. These things cascade... with my M2, I lost one header nut (I was the last one to touch it, blame me). That let that flange get loose. The resulting stress caused the other stud to shear, dropping that flange where it tattood the header. I caught it before it got any further. With my 9sx, I lost the bolt on the front exhaust header (again, I was the last one in there, nobody to blame but me). That is hard to spot and does not make a lot more noise when it is gone. I heard the subtle but telltale exhaust bark, rode the bike home, looked up there, and sure enough had another sheared stud. The root cause was no doubt that lost front hanger nut. I suspect one of those nuts got lost, and things cascaded quickly from there. The good news is that all the fixes are fairly straight forward... I'd also like to compliment you on the tone of the post. It would make me want to help you as well. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Oh, and the header clearly needs to be replaced, though I or somebody like me who is looking for any excuse to weld at any time, could probably fix that right up as well. It'd be fun challenge. Might be a good time to get one jet hot coated as well, I wonder if Al at American Sportbike has ones for sale that are already coated? | ||
| Skifastbadly |
Got a call from the dealer in WA this afternoon. Parts and labor to rotate the engine, drill out the stud, replace it, replace the headers, with tax, just a hair under 900 bucks. Jeeze. Spoke to the original Utah dealer who said "we'll fix it if it's our fault, but we see header nuts come off all the time, heck, I fastened four today already" which leads me to believe I'm going to have a difficult time proving what I suspect is the case, sloppy workmanship causing all this. I'm open to suggestions at this point. Call Customer Service? | ||
| Jos51700 |
I've seen headers that have never been touched do that exact same thing. I hope they'll take care of it, but I just don't see how the dealer could be responsible. It's some kind of welding/hardness/QC issue, IMO. | ||
| Skifastbadly |
I found Jos' comment interesting, because it would seem to point to a design or manufacturing flaw. So I decided to take a different tack. This morning I called customer service and I said "Hi. I have a question, or a complaint, or a comment...Let's decide which. First of all, I am a huge fan of both Buell and HD...I have a Ulysses, a Blast for my wife, and an 04 Heritage Classic. So I'm a pretty good customer, and I'm hopeful that you can help me out. I absolutely love my Uly, but I have had some serious issues with it this riding season. Since this spring, I've had to replace the voltage regulator, the fan, the rear bearings, the exhaust actuator, have the head gaskets replaced, and now this problem..By the time this is all finished, I'll have put about $2K in repairs into this bike, and the season's not even half over. So I'm calling to see what you can do for me." The woman I spoke with seemed generally concerned and told me she'd call the dealer tomorrow. (Dealers in the west seem to all be closed on Mondays.) I'm hopeful that putting it this way, as opposed to asking Buell to figure out if the first dealer screwed up or not, will be a better approach. Plus, I told her I'm originally from Milwaukee, because they always seem to warm up if they know they're talking to a fellow cheesehead. I'll let you all know what comes of this. (Message edited by skifastbadly on July 13, 2009) | ||
| Ratbuell |
So far, a mature, rational approach to a legitimate concern. I'm very impressed. It's Un-American these days, though. You're supposed to spit fire, gesture with your hands, use 4 letter words every other syllable, and point fingers at any and everyone who will stand still long enough to be a target. LOL. Definitely keep us apprised as the situation progresses. | ||
| Skifastbadly |
Ok, now I'm ready to spit fire and all that other stuff. Finally got a call back from customer service today: Here's how the call went: Customer Service Person: "We called the WA dealer, and they say that it looks like the damage was caused by poor quality work at the other shop, so you can call them and deal with them." Increasingly Annoyed Skifastbadly: "I was afraid of that, there'll be some finger pointing now. What about all the other things I told the other woman about problems with the bike?" CSP: We didn't know about them. They were out of warranty. We should have been notified IAS: By whom? CSP: You need to call when your bike's at the dealer before work is performed IAS: How was I supposed to know that? CSP: That's the process we follow IAS: And where's that process documented? CSP: It's not as far as I know. ISA: Look, here's my problem. I know that you make a distinction between the factory and the dealer, but I don't. To me, it's a "Buell Experience". You, the factory, dictate who can and cannot sell your bikes. That's not my choice. I feel like I should be dealing with a single entity. CSP: You should. Your dealer. Your dealer is your point of contact. ISA: Then what's the point of your organization existing? CSP: We step in when there are problems ISA: Good. Please step in here. CSP: I already told you, you have to go to the dealer. ISA: Look, I have three of your bikes. I have a fourth bike. I like to buy bikes. I may buy another one soon. This experience will likely decrease my chances of buying one from you. I am not happy with this resolution. CSP: Noted. I just hate that it's ending up this way. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Customer Service Person: "We called the WA dealer, and they say that it looks like the damage was caused by poor quality work at the other shop, so you can call them and deal with them." So...have you had the current dealer call the previous dealer yet? May help alleviate some of the fingerpointing-ness, if it's dealer to dealer as opposed to customer-to-dealer. | ||
| Skifastbadly |
Current dealer states he won't get involved except to say that he'll write it up as 'potentially being related to earlier work', so I have to be the middle man, I'm afraid. | ||
| Buellnineone |
Head gaskets or rocker box gaskets ? Head gaskets would not normally go, and a rocker gasket would not require removal of the header. Only the muffler is removed. | ||
| Skifastbadly |
That's a pretty good point. I guess they WERE the rocker cover gaskets. I do know that they had to rotate the engine to replace them. Nevertheless, two missing nuts on the front and a busted stud on the back tells me that somebody did SOMETHING wrong, this kind of failure occuring on both heads by themselves would be statistically improbable. Latest update, the loose header on the back beat the crap out of the cylinder head, so now I have to have THAT replaced. I discussed this again with Buell customer service on Friday, and they're getting involved, they had a tech call the dealer. Further, the original servicing dealer told me to have the Seattle guy call him, so it might finally be moving. Will know more tomorrow, when both service departments are open again. Strangely, a similar situation with a guy I rode with in Utah, HIS stud was broken too. See here for the story.http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48 1847&page=4 | ||
| Motorcyclemike |
Here's an idea, ask the dealership if they have any C.O.P. money that they can use to do the repairs. H-D/Buells dealerships who do warranty work usually have a certain amount of money they can use for out of warranty situations. It dosen't cost the dealership any money, money is given by the motor company. Good luck, Mike | ||
| Skifastbadly |
It looks like things are resolved. The service manager at the original dealer told the service manager in Seattle that 'we replaced the rocker gaskets, we didn't have to touch the headers for that, so it's not our fault." The Seattle dealer called me and said "well, what do you want us to do?" Bummer. So I called Customer Service again, and told them that since it wasn't the dealer, it must be the bike, and after a lot of discussion and pleading and reasoning and pointing out what a loyal customer I am and all the problems I've had with the bike etc., they turned the issue over to someone who's title I think is "factory tech" who called the Seattle dealer and had a chat. The net: I got a call yesterday afternoon from the Seattle service manager who said that Buell would cover the header, the cylinder head, all the labor, the whole enchilada. I'd be out $100 for something called an administration fee, and some 'other labor we've already put into it', so I'm looking at a total of $200 out of pocket, which at this time I'm satisfied with. I regret that by the time this is all over I'll have missed 4 weeks of riding the Uly (fortunately, I also have a Triumph Scrambler, so I haven't been grounded) but I would say that it worked out about as well as one could hope. I do feel the decoupling of the dealers from the manufacturer makes this sort of problem more difficult to deal with, it's a bit like in the old days when when something went wrong with one's computer, very often a "it's the hardware, no, it's the software" finger pointing occurred. I also learned that the person you deal with at Customer Service has a big impact on how things go. I worked with two different reps, the first one's attitude was pretty much "tough titty" but the second was far more sympathetic and saw this through to conclusion. Now, I don't have my bike yet, and I don't have the bill yet, but this is where things stand. I should also point out that I probably contributed to the confusion by stating to customer service and the Seattle dealer that I had had my head gaskets replaced, when, as pointed out by Buellnineone, it was really the rocker box gaskets. Hey, I'm not a mechanic, as far as I was concerned it was STILL 600 bucks, but my misinformation did muddy the water. Thanks for all your interest, and I'll see you on the road. | ||
| Hughlysses |
SFB- that sounds like a reasonable resolution. Maybe your first customer service rep was having a bad day or something- glad they finally helped. | ||
| Court |
Sounds like things worked out fabulously. That' really pretty amazing service. It's not your fault but that was a rally screwed up and tough case given the players and facts. It looks to me like they did a spectacular job. | ||
| Crusty |
It looks to me like they did a spectacular job. That's been typical of my experiences with Buell Customer Service. | ||
| Ratbuell |
It looks to me like they did a spectacular job. That's been typical of my experiences with Buell Customer Service. Damn. Maybe I need to break one of my Buells that *isn't* 15 years old, just to see  Glad to hear it worked out. | ||
| Court |
>>>> Maybe I need to break one of my Buells that *isn't* 15 years old, Matters not . . . I saw Buell step up to the plate and provide tons of support for 10-15 year old bikes last year. It really is amazing. | ||
| Skifastbadly |
An update, also posted in advrider.com Today, Sept 2, almost two months after they picked up the bike, I have it back. It was a comedy of errors, the late discovery that the bike needed a new head, they ordered that, it came without new valves, they ordered THOSE, the parts were unavailable for 10 days due to a "Mandatory Aug Factory Shut Down", a last minute discovery that the plug wires were cracked and had to be replaced......way too long, especially in Seattle where I missed the heart of the riding season. However, Buell/HD payed for all the parts and labor, (new rear head assembly, headers, O2 sensor, all the usual gaskets and fasteners and such) excluding a $100 admin fee, the dealer even installed the exhaust actuator at no charge in order to compensate me for the long wait. I only ride it about five miles, from the dealer to the office, but man it's good to have the Uly back and I'll be doing a LONG ride on this weekend. All's well, they say, that ends well. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Outstanding. |
