| Author | Message | ||
     Court |
>>>>Harley is hurting Buell's future at this point in time. How? | ||
| Davegess |
I agree with court. Buell has gone from 100 bikes a year to over 12000 a year in just 15 years of H-D's involvement. That is 100x growth, or about 40% per year on avearge. That is simply unbelievable. And more importatnly they have also gone from losing money to making a profit. Certainly there are things that can be done better but overall they are still a rocket sled | ||
| Jjr1125 |
>>>>Harley is hurting Buell's future at this point in time. How? For the record, I am not a "Harley Hater" I'm on my third Ultra and have over 100,000 miles on Harleys. I think they are fantastic company. That being said, here are some personal experiences where Harley dropped the ball regarding Buells. Last year I took my XB-9 in for a service. When I picked it up I looked at the bill and didn't see any charges for fork oil and a couple of other minor things. I asked and they told me the fork oil did not need to be changed at that service level. I said OK and went home. I did notice the bike had an additional 25 miles on it from when I dropped it off. The service folks really took an interest in the bike when I brought it in. I checked the books and it was supposed to be changed. I called the service department and told them my book stated the fork oil was supposed to be changed at that interval. He told me they followed the Sportster service manual and it didn't list the forks to be done. He then told me I could make another appointment and would be charged for the additional parts and labor. About 10 minutes later, the service manager called and appologized. He sent someone to pick up the bike and did the rest of the work with no charge. Experience #2 was trying to buy an 1125R. In September 2008, I went to the dealer and talked to a sales person. He told me he didn't know anything about the Buells and referred me to a guy who "knew" Buells. I talked to the "Buell guy" I told him I wanted to order a 2009 white 1125R. He told me they only come in black and showed me a 2009 black CR. He didn't know the 2009s came in three colors and didn't know the difference between a CR and an R. I walked out. For experience #3, I went to another dealer to try and buy a 2009 white 1125R. They had three 08s in stock and naturally wanted to sell me one of those. I told them I wanted a white 2009 1125R. They priced it about $750 above MSRP before taxes. I told them to forget it. I shopped around by phone and got better quotes. I went back to the dealer and asked them if they wanted to match the price. They reluctantly agreed. I offered $4,000 as a down payment and they told me they didn't need the money until the bike came in. I asked about a written order sheet to document the price and they said we didn't need it. After about three weeks, I checked in with them again. (I thought something was wrong with the way things were being done.) They told me they didn't think they could get a white 09 until next summer and wanted to know if I wanted an 08. I told them to forget it. I was lucky enough to talk to Teach. He agreed to do the deal, took my money, wrote an order sheet and had the bike ordered within 48 hours. If I wasn't a dedicated Buell fan, I never would have bought a new Buell. Many customers would have walked out and bought some other sportbike. From the traffic on this board, I am not alone. The sales people and service department generally do a poor job when it comes to Buells. Sorry Court, but that responsibility is Harley's. Frustrated customers go somewhere else. That hurts Buell. I should not have to search dealers to find someone who knows how to service a Buell and what color they come in. They should know more about the bikes than I do.} I was lucky to find Western Reserve Harley Davidson. They love Buells and treat me as a customer. Unfortunately it is a three hour drive to get there. That is how Harley hurts Buell. | ||
| Court |
well written. I am charging out the door to class. I will be responding. Just wanted you to know I saw and appreciate your response. | ||
| F_skinner |
Jjr1125, I have been watching this thread like many others and know exactly where you are coming from. I will offer up that what you described is a dealership problem and does not reflect on how Buell is treated by HD corporate. At least that is my impression after meeting Flick at MBV and Homecoming. That being said I do think there is room for improvement It is a frustration that many of us live every day. I think those dealerships that are that short sighted will have a hard time in the next few years. That may be true will a lot of businesses. There are very few stores, dealerships, franchises or businesses in general that I give high marks in customer service. When I find them I make sure I support them. How a franchise is run is up to the individual that owns it. Shunning a potential customer either overtly or through lack of knowledge and enthusiasm is bad for their business and reflects badly on the product. It is unfortunate. That reminds me, I need to stop in at a great Buell dealer here in Colorado and remind them how much I appreciate how they treat me, my product and my passion for the brand. I know they will be around for a while and the dealership I ride by to get there will not. | ||
| 2008xb12scg |
Great thread. One thought on Buell merchandising. In my work you put the product that people are coming to buy at the bottom or back as they will look for it. You put the new product you're trying to promote on top or in front. People come to a Harley store to buy a Harley, they will walk to the back to see them. why not put the 3% of Buell space up front? Just my thought. | ||
| Davegess |
You are absolutly correct that some of the dealers are a real disappointment. IMHO there are still too many Buell dealers, if they could get ride of the ones that don't care and leave just the ones that do the world would be a better palce. Unfortunatly H-D has little control over dealers. They have a contract and protection from various state franchise laws. It is hard to get a dealer to drop th eBuell line if they don't want to do it. Why you would keep it when you hardly sell any bikes and seem to have no one on staff who cares I don't know but there are some out there. | ||
| Dhalen32 |
Jjr1125: While I understand and sympathize with your frustration with your dealer experience prior to finding Western Reserve, I don't think you can blame your bad experience on H-D. I submit that you would find similar incompetence at Honda dealers, Kawasaki dealers, Chevrolet dealers, etc. You have done the right thing and sought out a competent Buell dealer who valued your business enough to listen and they made you a happy consumer. They have most likely now earned your allegiance for a long period of time; as long as Buell continues to manufacture motorcycles which you would like to buy. The good news is that ineffectual and uncaring businesses like dealer #1 in your post will fail or drop the franchise and no longer be able to torment and frustrate buyers like you and I. Keep supporting Western Reserve and other great dealers (like mine) who get it. Tell everyone you can about your very positive experience and in the end, the best dealers will be the ones who are left while the others will have faded away. Dave | ||
| Court |
>>>Unfortunately H-D has little control over dealers. And therein lies the problem. That, coupled with the fact that some dealers have taken on the Buell line just to "tie it up" and keep another dealer from having it, have traditionally caused problems. This impacts Buell in a different and more difficult way than other "small" manufactures such as Aprilia, Ducati and MV Agusta. The best way to get a REALLY good Buell dealer (and I'm not suggesting this is the way it should be, it's an empirical observation based on visiting hundreds of dealers in 44 states over 20+ years) if for owners to make one. If you were to read "9 Ways To Sell A Buell" you'd find a couple points that stress dealer/owner interaction. Interesting that when I lived in Topeka, KS that Topeka HD/Buell was the premier Buell dealer in the United States. They still lead ALL THE HD DEALERS IN THE WORLD in terms of dealership awards. I moved to NYC and Liberty is arguably among the finer in the United States. I am taking zero credit but will throw that out there. Get involved with your local dealer; see what you can do, and MAKE THEM GOOD. Go ahead and start my lecture on how you shouldn't have to do this . . . I've heard it all before, but I like being able to take my bike to a dealer with confidence. If I were anywhere near Western Reserve I'd be doing everything I could to support them. By the way, the folks at Western Reserve may not remember it but I have the photos of when I made a surprise visit there 3 years ago . . . I was impressed and they were wonderfully kind folks. I may go back . . . . I enjoyed riding along the lake. Court | ||
| Jjr1125 |
Dave, I agree there will be a "natural selection" and thinning of the herd. The good Buell folks will survive and the poor ones should fall by the wayside. I am not a stranger to other bike dealers. I have a Honda and a Kawasaki. There are poor sales people there also but not in the same quantity as Buell sales. I respectfully disagree about Harley being responsible for the situation. I don't believe for a second that HD purposely treats Buell badly. I think bureacratic situation developed and not been addressed. They must be aware of the situation and they are ultimately responsible for it. Maybe training and education will take care of it. They also need to look at Buell and find some ways to make the Buell sales and service experiences more like Harley's. Bad dealers will always be there, but the good companies find ways to make better dealers. I agree we should support the good dealers. That is where I will go for needed services and the place I purchase the extra things for the bike. My credit card is no stranger at Western Reserve HD. I really enjoy talking to the employees who also happen to ride Buells. Harley needs to move now and address the issues for Buell to flourish. Jim (Message edited by jjr1125 on February 17, 2009) | ||
| Court |
>>>The good Buell folks will survive and the poor ones should fall by the wayside. That works well in theory. In practice, it hasn't played out in over 20 years. As Dave pointed out there are many other factors in play that effectively checkmate the most well meaning efforts. | ||
| Jjr1125 |
Court, There are a lot of factors to deal with. The important thing is that someone tries to deal with it. Jump over the obstacle, go around it, smash it or blow it up, just get it done.(Sorry, I was a Marine.) On the serious side, Buell is something special and I can't imagine a progressive company like HD letting Buell get pushed aside at the dealer level. Buell has a great product and a fanatical customer base. There has to be a way to sell and service these bikes with positive results. | ||
| Court |
>>>(Sorry, I was a Marine.) No problem, so was I. >>>Jump over the obstacle, go around it, smash it or blow it up, just get it done. Want me to let the folks at Buell know you gave me the \i""smash it or blow it up"" green light? I have a bit of an er . . . uh . . "no nonsense" reputation.  >>>There are a lot of factors to deal with. Dead accurate and many are in the form of written contracts. Harley-Davidson is not, and has never been a "progressive" company, by any interpretation. They are conservative, old school, close to the vest and cast in their ways of doing things. That's what's sometimes called "traditional" or "heritage." HD abhors change and, in all candor, that's been one of their great attributes and has served them well. Buell on the other hand, I've described as "mobile, agile and hostile". Harley-Davidson controls the Buell dealer arrangements. Buell has very little, nearly zero, to do with it. That's a shame . . but that's a fact. | ||
| Daves |
Thanks Brian I still wish I could open a Buell dealership. Hard to believe it's been 2 years already | ||
| Diablobrian |
No thanks needed Dave, just the truth as I see it. If H-D wanted to sell Buells, in a consistent and serious way, they have people that know how to make it happen. Instituting the changes these guys recommend as policy will result in growth. The current experiment that allows the dealers to decide how they will support the Buell brand through how much time, training, effort, and floor space they choose to devote has fallen pretty flat except in the rare instances where the dealership "gets it". Harley can implement corporate policy and they are not afraid to do so in defense of the Harley Davidson brand. I fear that unless they do institute changes from the top down the dealers will continue to do irreparable damage to Buell in the form of lost new customers. As it stands most dealers treat someone that comes in asking about Buells as an opportunity....to re-direct towards a "real motorcycle" (their words, not mine). It is hard to find a Buell owner that has been to more than one dealership that hasn't been re-directed to the sportsters, v-rods etc. with the salesmen making disparaging remarks about our bikes (girl's bike or "half a harley" being the most common in my experience). Those that are not already owners tend to walk out the door rather than force the issue. Selling to us on BadWeB is like preaching to the choir, but we want this congregation to grow just as much as anyone at Buell does because what's good for them is good for us in the end. So let's fire up those H-D lawyers and get some of these contracts re-written! Let's get the keys to the sales training into the hands of people like DaveS that have proven that they can sell Buells where ever they are and attract record level new business in places "Buells just don't sell". Who's with me? Can I get an Amen? | ||
| Daves |
Like when I had been at Appleton for a couple months, digging around in the parts room looking for something and stumbled across a big box with a part number I did not recognize. I opened it up and found the "common replacement part kit" from Buell for the 2003 XBs. Box had never been opened. It had all the common tip over stuff as well as some other parts that I sold on a real regular basis. These kits were ordered in 2002 before the XB9R came out. I found it in about May of 04. So these parts had been sitting there for 2 YEARS! Wonder how many people had to wait for them to order a clutch lever in that 2 years when they had one sitting in a box that they never even opened to see what was in it. I was floored! I would think that right now, HD and the dealers would be looking for people that actually know how to sell stuff. During the "gravy years" too many HD dealership floors were manned by order takers, not salespeople. These people in many instances are still there. Poor customer service was/is the result. They are ill prepared to take on the challenge facing dealerships today. Many have been promoted to management of dealerships. This compounds the problem. It is time the dealers start to run their business as a business. It's not hard, just takes a different mindset and lots of good ole fashioned work. Attitudes and habits are hard to change. In a business, it should not matter which brand of bike the customer is interested in. If you sell that brand, Help them buy the damn thing already! Geesh! | ||
| Court |
>>>Many have been promoted to management of dealerships. Unfortunately some of the same has happened in the executive suites at Harley-Davidson. There are a couple folks in key positions who are incapable of adapting and seeing the innovation that will be required to move ahead. The hope is that there are a couple really sharp folks in the wings who lack only the political "lift". I'm hoping the Board of Directors will sense the need for some fresh thinking. How cool would it be to have a female President of Harley-Davidson? | ||
| Jjr1125 |
OK, we all seem to share the same relative opinion of the situation. Now, what can we do as consumers to help move this towards a solution? I don't like sitting on the sideline and doing nothing. What can we do to help? | ||
| Buell920 |
what can we do as consumers to help move this towards a solution Be just that. next time you need a part utilize your local Buell shop. next time you ride with other Buell riders make it a point to stop into the store, make you presence noticed ( park your bikes right out front so sales people can see them, wear you Buell gear,....). the more you show your support to the right people the more they will respond. it wasn't until HD owner stopped chopping there stuff in the 80's and started getting parts from the store did they excel. make the store do what we need them to do, STOCK OUR PARTS. they will respond to what they "see" not what they are told COULD happen "if". it may not be a grand Epiphany to the right people right away but it will certainly turn heads real quick. | ||
| Court |
I could not have said it better . . . . | ||
| Ski25r |
I was thinking about something said in a different thread. The acquisition of MV Agusta and the hope of Buells being sold in their dealerships worldwide. I then wondered how many MV US dealers and contracted distribution points there where. I was horrified when I clicked on my home state and saw this on the MV website: Stock's Harley Davidson, Menasha Ave.;Manitowoc, WI, 54220
Phone: (920) 684-0237
Website: www.stockshd.com. I am assuming this is part of a test model. Looks like a lot of those anti-sports bike Harley dealers better get there act together or find another line of work. Or will MV be treated like Buell at dealerships?  | ||
| Diablobrian |
except MV would likely be treated worse due to their lack of HD dna. | ||
| Court |
The MV thing is unrelated.
| ||
| Svh |
Ski25r I purchased my Buell from Stock's and I can assure you they were a MV dealer well before HD acquired MV. They are also a decent Buell dealer. Don't stock too much in parts but the staff doesn't try to push you away from Buell's. I now go to Appleton HD because it is closer and they stock parts although lately it has been less and less. I have a dream of a Buell only dealer that would sell used bikes and maybe another "boutique" brand also. MV or Moto-Guzzi or even Triumph. Service and apparel also with Buell parts in stock. Have a building in mind even but I am a normal guy with out the funding but it is fun to dream. Guys from the around here might know of the old Big Dog/Indian dealer in Oshkosh. That building would be great for this. Someday when I hit the lottery. Need to buy tickets I guess. I hear that significantly raises your chances of winning. | ||
| Ski25r |
So how is MV going to fit in with Buell at Harley dealers? I am all for positive brand reinforcement to encourage better service. How do you get around the too many chickens in the hen house without snapping one of the chickens necks? Just curious... http://www.mvagustausa.com/web-mvagusta/dealerloca tor.html Click Wi | ||
| Ski25r |
Posted the above before I saw your post Svh. That’s why Court said it was unrelated. Thanks for information and education. If I hit the Lotto first, I will give you a call. Your idea and location would be perfect. So nice to dream... Have to play to wIn. Ski | ||
| Buell920 |
so I have classes all day, teach a class tonight " about the bikes " then talk at the VME http://www.vmesolutions.org/ on wed. I will post my thoughts on what it will take to have our very first Buell store. | ||
| Slc4me |
Man after reading this stuff am I glad I'm only 20 minutes from latus those guys know their stuff and treat you like your riding a harley when you come in with a buell | ||
| Ourdee |
.(Sorry, I was a Marine.) NOTHING SORRY ABOUT IT ! Hey Court, If you ever decide to visit the dealer in Rockford, I want to tag along. | ||
| Moxnix |
Every product has three customer groups: Government, Industry and People. Buell is ostensibly a people product. Attracting more people to quality dealers who care about the brand and the customer is just one facet. Buell gets plenty of magazine ink, plenty of website pixels. The overseas customer "gets" what a Buell is and what a Buell does. Buell sales are decent in the offshore market. Last weekend I was on the phone with another graybeard motorcyclist such as myself, been into this since the 60s, and Buell came up in our chin wag about old times and new. Buell is with the Japanese stuff, in that a number of buyers have a shorter affiliation with a particular bike, let alone a particular brand. Ah, the fickle interests (and attention span) of youth. Harley sells an image and lifestyle to folks who don't change models every 18 months. If you chose one ingredient for success, it is having a customer. He/she is more important than the business idea, technology, financing, management, or anything else. The goal must be to GET and KEEP customers. In post WW2 years, folks bought bikes for transportation in a shortage of cars. They were solving a problem. Now, folks buy to "feel good." Buell must sell the "potential for gain," expressed in perceived dollar value greater than the price of the goods to increase sales. We don't buy products, we buy what we get from the product. I don't buy motorcycles, I buy the ride, the garage experience, the machine with which I can strike a pose at the pub meeting of bikers or bike show or race. I buy the dollarized value of the experience of owning the motorcycle. Buell has to dollarize the value of every product benefit and every product point of difference. Customers buy. Products are what they buy. Applications are why they buy. Buell's marketing strategy encompasses the who, what and why elements, and tweaking it increases sales. With Buells we have "aware users," "aware non-users," and "unaware users." Time should always be invested in asking aware users why they bought and to ask aware non-users why they did not buy. The answers can be wrapped into strategies to keep the aware users, the switch the aware non-users, and to attract and get the unawares. Product quality is a marketing responsibility. Direction of R&D is a marketing responsibility. Sales is a marketing responsibility. Technology does not sell itself. Marketing sells the benefits of the technological advances. Nothing sells itself. Fuel in frame or Buell front brakes? Fantastic, but they don't sell themselves. Sales staff has to do two things: 1. Get across the dollarized value of ownership over the entire life use of the product. 2. Ask for the sale, or a commitment to an action that leads to a sale. Buell dealers have to have salespeople who are enthusiastic about the brand. They also need sales professionals who didn't study lunch and recess in school, who are willing to hustle for the buyer instead of take orders. Every product is branded. Brand names are intellectual assets. Shops need to treat Buell like a great brand. And, keep Buell a good, customer tested, on-strategy brand. |
