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BadWeB - for Buell Motorcycle Enthusiasts » Court in Session » Archive through September 21, 2007 » A birdie in the ear « Previous Next »

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Jlnance
Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 10:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Court,

I'd like to pick up a conversation you and I were having back when the Bank Angle Sensor recall was announced. I'm hoping something constructive comes from this that you can whisper in the appropriate ear at Buell.

You may have noticed there is a Ulysses wheel bearing failure thread here on Badweb, and another on ADVrider.

The one on ADV is particularly interesting as two facts come to light. One is that Buell is getting a reputation, even amongst outsiders, as a company which is truly responsive to its customers. The other is that Buell is actively working on the wheel bearing problem.

Being known for listening to their customers is surly a great thing for the company. It is one of the things that sets them apart. I would like to see them cement that reputation by also being known as the company which talks to their customers. I believe they have a some work to do in this area.

The company is good about addressing problems which crop up in with the bikes. The Uly has seen recalls to fix both side stand and BAS issues. However the method by which these fixes are delivered leaves something to be desired.

It erodes a lot of good will to develop these solutions in complete secrecy, and then to announce them fully formed to the owners. It is somewhat like your doctor discovering you have cancer, but keeping that information from you for six months while he decides on a treatment plan. It would make you mad.

If Buell would simply say "We are investigating the Bearing issue and expect to have something by October," it would generate a huge amount of good will towards the company. As it is, when they announce the bearing fixes, it will be perceived by many that they were forced to take action by the negative publicity caused by threads like the ones here and on ADV.

Even among people like myself, who are inclined to give Buell the benefit of the doubt, it would be nice to know the company's plans in advance. I'm considering buying some "premium" bearings and having them pressed in. If Buell comes out with a bearing recall in 3 months, where does that leave me? If I don't do the recall, the VIN will be flagged forever as needing it. Buell likely won't give me the information necessary to determine if their recall bearings are better or worse then what I put in. My understanding is you can only do a few bearing swaps before the wheels are damaged, so this is rather important information.

The last time I brought something like this up, you suggested that there were legal problems with releasing this sort of information. I'm sure there are. However, I think this is an important issue, for both Buell and their customers. Lawyers and lobbyists can resolve legal issues if the really want to.

I would encourage you to look outside the motorcycle industry to see what other companies do. As an example, you can go to https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/index.cgi and see the bugs people have filed against Red Hat Linux. You can see the comments from the engineers, you can file bugs yourself. Take a look at this one: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi? id=237108

You get comments from the creator of the bug, the engineer working on the problem, and any other people who are interested in the issue. You can see all this with out even being a Red Hat customer.

Thanks again Court for all you do for the Buell community. It is appreciated.

Thanks,

Jim
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Court
Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 04:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

A lot has been done.

There is a lot to be done.

Paradigms, convention and comfort zone will all play a role. Hopefully they'll regulate the pace not abort it.

I think there are some solutions and expect to see neat developments.
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Davegess
Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 05:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Jim, one thing that effects the process is NHTSA. They have very specific requirements around anything that COULD be safety related.

There is a HUGE legal aspect to this and it will move slowly as a result.

There are 3 kinds of recalls, voluntarily, manditory voluntary and in voluntary.

The first means a manufacture finds an issues and initiates a recall, the second is when NHTSA finds a problem and tells the manufacturer to issue a voluntary recall NHTSA will issue an involuntary recall. The third is when the manufacturer refuses to issue number two.

Most recalls are of the second type. Most if not all of the Buell recalls have been of the first type. It seems likely that most of the Buell recalls would never have reached the second level so Buell is going above and beyond the law.

Now here is where the legal stuff comes into play. Prior to the time a company is aware there is a safety issue they can legally defend inaction in lawsuit and perhaps win.

After they know about the safety issue but before the recall is issued (with some resonable time for action to take place they are hugely vulnerable to law suits. Once the recall is issued they are off the hook.

Because of this any public discussion of an item that MAY be safety related is opening your self up to not only huge lawsuits but also huge fines.

If Buell is monitoring badweb for safety issues and admits this then when they miss a post about something else they are wide open to be sued. Not to mention that data from these websites is anecdotal and not valid from a statistical point of few.

This whole deal seems so easy at first but gets complex pretty fast. People smarter than i are working on it.
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Court
Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 06:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

>>>After they know about the safety issue but before the recall is issued

And this is where it gets good . . . the NHTSA folks place restrictions on how soon, following a notice of recall, that parts must be available.

Ergo . . . the mfg is precluded from saying a word about anything until it's been discovered, investigated, validated, root causeiated, fixiated and distributionalized.

Once a recall in announced the mfg has pretty much shielded themselves in a tortuous sense. Absent the rules a mfg would declare anything and everything a "recall".

It's not really quite that simple, but you get the concept.

In addition, "voluntary" means a lot of different things in different places.

Buell has a very impressive track record of coming down HEAVILY on the side of caution. There have been several Buell recalls (ranging from the silly stickers on the wheels . . . which gets a full chapter in the FMVSS) to the "blanket recall of 1999" where Buell basically said. . "let's update everything we've ever built to reflect the current state of the knowledge".

Dave G and I both know one of the guys who makes the call on recalls. . . Owners, if you want a hard headed advocate in your corner, could do no better. He's the guy who nearly flushed the keys down the toilet when a HD exec "ordered" him to ship a bike. This dude stood there and told him "It doesn't budge until it's right".

Buell has always done a stellar job at listening to owners and is working very hard to make it more of a two way conversation.

There is tremendous risk in "responding" (term used at a recent meeting on the subject) to a website. What would happen if Buell responded to a comment on Badweb and someone on UKBEG or Tribu6800 made a similar comment that garnered less of a "response"?

You see the situation. Hell, it'd be tough for you and I to agree. . . toss 14 attorneys, angry about having to live in Michigan, in the mix and see what happens.

: )
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Jlnance
Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 08:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks for your responses guys.

I'm sure the legal situation is difficult, and no one wants to give someone ammunition to sue them. I can understand that.

Just to be clear, I don't necessarily want Buell to come out and say there is going to be a bearing reacall. I'd just like for them to acknowlege that they are investigating the problem and give some hint as to how long they think the investigation will take, even if in the end they conclude they don't need to do anything. They certainly don't need to post the information on Badweb, they can post it on their own website. Such a post doesn't even have to be seen in negative light. Consider a webpage on buell.com similar to this:

Customer Care Projects At Buell


ProjectInvestigatorEst Completion
S2 Luggage latch improvement Dave G Sept 1999
Improved parts delivery system Court C May 2000
Ulysses Ping reduction Erik B July 2008
Blast Wheelie Project Bubba B Sept 2003


It's just nice to know you aren't being left out in the cold. Or at least how long you're going to have to stand in it.

Thanks again,

Jim
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Ratbuell
Posted on Saturday, August 18, 2007 - 12:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I think the only catch to BMC saying "we're working on it" is, by saying that or anything even close to that, they're admitting there's a problem. Otherwise, what's there to work on?

That admission alone opens them to litigation and liability. In other words - "You know there's a problem but you still let these bikes on the road, and now someone got hurt but/because you haven't done anything about it? Lawsuit!" They pretty much have to have a plan in action before they can even admit to the possibility of a problem. In your example, a "luggage latch improvement" would be in a different "class" as it does not involve the same level of rider safety as a wheelbearing "improvement".

I see where you are coming from with the possibility of outsourcing your own bearings. It sucks. I have done the same thing in similar situations on both my bikes and my cars over the years. Sometimes it's turned out that my parts were the best solution and have lasted to this date; sometimes not. In the "not" situations, I've simply chalked my investment up to the ol' College Try, and gotten my recall done for free anyway.

It's my suspicion (I think that's spelled wrong but it's late...) that if, in the course of replacing your bearings with recall bearings (should it come to pass there is a recall - PURELY speculation here and rest assured I don't work for BMC, sorry...) a dealer damages your wheels, either BMC Warranty or dealership Goodwill Warranty would likely pay to replace the wheel itself. That's the nice side of the "why can't I install my own recall parts" coin - for a change, if they break it, *they* bought it : )

For now though, you have to take the course that helps you rest best at night. If you sleep better replacing your own bearings, I don't think anyone would fault you for it. If you are diligent about checking your bike over (and I imagine you are, most of us here on BadWeb are pretty thorough) you'll catch any potential problem before it becomes an issue and can make the decision at that point. Given the ratio of bearing "issues" versus total Ulys on the road...if it were me, I'd just keep a closer eye on the bearings and see how the chapter plays out.
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Court
Posted on Saturday, August 18, 2007 - 08:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The reality is that trying to put something like this in place is like trying to get the Ohio State Marching Band to step off together the first time they play Ina-Gadda-Da-Vida. . . in G#.

But. . . best with me. . . that is NO EXCUSE for not trying.

The world is a different place in this day and age and we can and do handle information differently.

These is no excuse for me being able to get a picture of a Buell sitting in front of the Kremiln faster than the phone gets answered at a $5,000,000,000 a year company.

There are legal hurdles but they should not be summarily cast out as insurmountable.

Buells website reflects tremendous fear of liability. It's due for a big overhaul both in terms of content and mentality.

I'm not sure there is any legal risk with posting a "historical perspectives" area where one could see photos of, specs for and numbers built of say a 1995 S-2 Thunderbolt.

In addition, the way Customer Service communicates with people has GOT to be improved.

The Customer Service group are good folks. But when a person waits from 30 to 90 minutes they should be ashamed.

I have proposed and will continue to support a system where a REGISTERED Buell Owner can go to the owners area, download a form, fill out all the information for a Customer Service Request and submit it electronically.

What a waste of a mind to have someone who's had the technical training the customer service folks have spending the first 12 minutes of a call . . . "name, address, phone, VIN. . . uh, is that a zero of an "O"".

It is a broken system that begs for improvement. In this day and age a company touting itself as "on the leading edge of technology" with NOT ONE e-mail address on it's website is sending very mixed messages.

Court
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Ratbuell
Posted on Saturday, August 18, 2007 - 08:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Court - OK, OK...that zero-or-oh thing got me. LOL! I'll go to the garage and look at the bike if you like ;)
joe
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Diablobrian
Posted on Saturday, August 18, 2007 - 11:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hey Court...not to be a bother, have you heard anything about the Firebolt headlights?



BTW: I'll be starting classes at University of Missouri-Columbia (one step closer to my "brass ring") on monday. Woo Hoo!
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Jlnance
Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 06:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hey Diablobrian, I just checked your profile, you're my age (closeish.) Congrats on going back to school. Takes guts to do that when you're not traditional college age. Good luck to you!
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Diablobrian
Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 05:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks, Jlnance I appreciate the vote of confidence!

I'm bound and determined not just to "get my life back", but to improve on where I was before
my accident turned my life upside down. I'm working on getting an engineering degree so that
I can start bugging the people at Buell for a job!
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