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Pwnzor
Posted on Tuesday, June 30, 2015 - 06:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

When did I say that Rossi cut the corner on purpose? He was forced to cut the corner by his own actions.

Did I not just say I don't dispute the win?

That theory about who is "going to occupy" the space is bunk. Marquez was in that space, and Rossi crowded in, making contact from the outside. By your reasoning, nobody can pass anybody, because they "were going to occupy the space".

I don't care if you're 6 inches ahead. Inside is inside. Outside is outside. Marquez was passing Rossi.

It was a great race. Looking forward to the next round.

It's no secret I'm rooting for Marquez, but that doesn't change the fact I'd love to see Rossi win a 10th championship.
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Gaesati
Posted on Tuesday, June 30, 2015 - 07:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

i wonder if lorenzo will win the championship once the dust has settled from the MM/Rossi clash.
Remember if the duellists had taken each other out Lorenzo would have won.
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Jaimec
Posted on Tuesday, June 30, 2015 - 07:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Lorenzo said as much in the post-race interview. Someone asked if the duel gave him any advantages and he quipped "Only if they both crash."
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Jaimec
Posted on Tuesday, June 30, 2015 - 07:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Some other thoughts gathered from comments I've read around the web:

Marquez was seen practicing that overtake during all of the practice sessions. What are the odds that didn't go unnoticed by Rossi?

Bradley Smith implied Rossi KNEW what was coming and played his cards perfectly. He knew Marquez would try to stuff him on the inside and used that knowledge to willingly cut the course over the gravel.

The only man who knows for certain isn't likely to be saying anything any time soon...

"Old age and treachery will beat youth and enthusiasm every time."
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Pwnzor
Posted on Tuesday, June 30, 2015 - 07:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The entire race, all I could think was "please don't take each other out.... PLEASE don't take each other out....!"

I about crapped myself when they made contact and I was as pleased as I could be that neither of them went down.

Not mad at all that Rossi won, actually glad he pulled it off.

Marc is back.
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Jaimec
Posted on Tuesday, June 30, 2015 - 02:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2015/06/30/rossivsma rquez-the-storm/179208

Best line: "Marquez got his Assen kicked."
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Tuesday, June 30, 2015 - 02:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Pwnzor--The rest of the world and MotoGp race direction disagree with you. Marquez had no prayer of making that move successful without contact. He like to play bumper racing. He tried it in Argentina and got planted on his ass. He tried it in Assen and the Maestro used MM's aggressiveness against him PERFECTLY. Can't wait to see what is in store for the rest of the season....

I certainly couldn't say it better than the experts from Race Direction:

quote:

A group of journalists spoke to Race Director Mike Webb after the race, and this is what he told us. "It obviously needed review, so as soon as we saw it, and because it’s the last lap we can then pay our attention to it. So lots of video reviews, lots of discussion. I have to say the end result, race incident, was clear cut. It wasn’t we're not sure or whatever. It was clear cut. The basis of that was that during the entire last chicane maneuver Valentino was always in front. We have a really good helicopter shot that he's always in front and is therefore entitled to his line. He was entering the turn and doing a normal line as if he was going to go through the turn. Marc made a pass on the inside, which he's entitled to do. It's the last lap of a GP, have a pass. During the pass he first of all critically never got in front of Valentino. The helicopter showed us very clear, Valentino’s always in front. Marc did make contact with Valentino."

Was it Márquez hitting Rossi, or Rossi hitting Márquez? "Very clearly Marc made contact with Valentino. The helicopter shot shows us who’s in front. The frontal shot which was not the live shot, but another shot from front on, shows the gap between the riders and which trajectory they’re coming on. Valentino’s on pretty much the classic line. Marc’s doing a pass up the inside as you would, and arrives and contacts Valentino. Valentino at that point decides he has to stand up. He said, I’m on the limit. He’s going as fast as he can into the turn, gets contact from the inside, has no option but to stand up. So he goes across the gravel. Marc also leaves the track, goes across the artificial grass. So from the rules point of view both riders left the track. They entered the turn and through the turn and exited the turn in the same relative positions, as in first and second. At no point did they change positions. So from that point of view no advantage was taken. Clearly because Valentino cut a lot more of the corner there was a time advantage taken but in this instance it’s immaterial. We’re not waiting for the next lap to see who’s got an advantage. It was the person in front stayed in front. The person in second stayed second. They both left the track and they both regained the track. End of story. The critical point is that I believe both riders entered the turn intending to make the turn. No one was intending to cross the gravel. No one was intending to knock the other rider off. But what happened was contact and then a rider left the track, both riders left the track. So in the end pretty simple. Racing incident, no advantage was taken."

Webb said that Márquez was entitled to try to make the pass in the final corner. "Marc had a legitimate attempt to make a pass. I believe he did not intend to make contact with Valentino, but he did." The goal of Race Direction is to ensure that the racing is safe, but that it remains racing, and that riders are allowed to attempt to win the race on the last lap by taking more risk than they might on any other lap.


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Pwnzor
Posted on Tuesday, June 30, 2015 - 03:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I guess you don't read what you cut and paste, or you just don't comprehend it if you did.

Everybody I've shown the video to agrees with me, or is at least on the fence. Nobody I've spoken with, and shown all the angles, has fallen squarely in the Rossi camp on this one.

Tell you what, my dad owns a 7-11 over on Ashland, tell him I said to give you a free Slurpee. Make you feel better.

You lot seem to want to argue a point I'm not even trying to dispute. Go ahead, argue with yourselves.

Marc is back.
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Tuesday, June 30, 2015 - 03:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)


quote:

Everybody I've shown the video to agrees with me, or is at least on the fence. Nobody I've spoken with, and shown all the angles, has fallen squarely in the Rossi camp on this one.




Wow. Really. Everyone you have shown the video to has agreed with you. That's compelling evidence.

I just quoted you Race Direction's assessment of the incident. The way I read it (maybe my reading comprehension is off), they side completely with VR46.

You seem like you are in complete denial of the facts and expert conclusions in this incident. I agree you should stop arguing as it's hard to argue when the aforementioned facts and experts line up squarely against you.
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Jaimec
Posted on Tuesday, June 30, 2015 - 03:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Fresno, the term is "Cognitive Dissonance." When the facts disagree with your predetermined opinion then somehow the facts must be wrong. Creationists have this problem too.

The important thing is that in the opinion on EVERYONE WHO COUNTS (the MotoGP Commission, Dorna, et al) all agree Rossi was in the right, Marquez blew it. That's really all there is to it.

But all you really need is that overhead helicopter footage which quite clearly shows Rossi NEVER surrendered the lead; he was on the classic racing line, and Marquez pulled one of his typical, hyper-aggressive, last ditch overtakes. Against most other riders he PROBABLY would've succeeded (and knocked his opponent flat on his ass to boot). Against Rossi? Not so much...
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Pwnzor
Posted on Tuesday, June 30, 2015 - 10:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yes, they agree with me that Rossi won the race, and that had he not collided with Marc, he likely would not have.

Again, you're arguing with yourselves, because I'm not disputing who won.

Race direct does have it right, no penalty for either rider.

If Marc had done something wrong, there would be a penalty for it. Likewise, Rossi.

Then Jaime brings religion into the discussion as if it bears some relevance.

You both need a Slurpee. My treat.
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2015 - 05:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Your quote:


quote:

Marquez was in that space, and Rossi crowded in, making contact from the outside.




Race direction:


quote:

Was it Márquez hitting Rossi, or Rossi hitting Márquez? "Very clearly Marc made contact with Valentino. The helicopter shot shows us who’s in front. The frontal shot which was not the live shot, but another shot from front on, shows the gap between the riders and which trajectory they’re coming on. Valentino’s on pretty much the classic line. Marc’s doing a pass up the inside as you would, and arrives and contacts Valentino.




And i added some religion to the thread as well:



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Pwnzor
Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2015 - 06:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

You certainly did, but you didn't attack mine. Jaime can take that mess over to the quick board.

Race direction says a lot of things that are wrong, but we have to abide by it, don't we?

I think it's hilarious that the "classic racing line" is way out wide, while Marquez was on what I consider to be an ACTUAL racing line, which is right up the inside.

The result is the same. I have never disputed the outcome, but the Marquez haters have to come out of the woodwork with their nonsense, don't they?

Enjoy the next race, I believe the results are going to be very different than they have been over the last several.

Marc is back.
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2015 - 03:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

It's a chicane, meaning you have to come in wide to setup for the second part of the chicane. The line MM took was way to direct in that first corner. Contact with Rossi 1) kept him from crashing more than likely and 2) kept him on track (almost).

Yes, Rossi was on the classic racing line. I trust Race Direction with this assessment versus what we can see from the TV broadcast.

Marquez has brought the hate (as you call it) because of his style. Now that it has all caught up to him, people are certainly making their feelings known. NO surprise there.

My hand-drawn lines, but maybe this will help you understand.


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Pwnzor
Posted on Wednesday, July 01, 2015 - 07:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

You're all entitled to your own beliefs of course.

If people hate a superior racing style, then maybe they just hate racing.

It's a race. Rossi came out on top. This time.

I hope he takes a 10th championship, but equally, I hope Marquez comes back to take a third.

It's going to be exciting to watch the rest of this season. I can't wait to see it in person from my excellent seats at Indianapolis.

Marc is back.
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Thursday, July 02, 2015 - 11:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Door slammed:




All hail the GOAT (not Rossi's site, we all know he has more class):





"Where are all the cornerworkers?"


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Fresnobuell
Posted on Thursday, July 02, 2015 - 11:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Rossi smirking...










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Pwnzor
Posted on Thursday, July 02, 2015 - 09:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

OK, those were pretty good.

Marc is back. See you at the end of the season.

Thing is, I'll be happy either way. Clearly, one of them will take the championship.

Lorenzo has expired.

Free Slurpees for everybody if I'm wrong.
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Thursday, July 02, 2015 - 09:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I wouldn't count Lorenzo out, honestly. People were ready to do that and then he won 4 in a row.
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Pwnzor
Posted on Friday, July 03, 2015 - 11:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

He's definitely doing well, but I don't think he's going to take it this year.

I think Rossi will probably end up on top, which means I will lose a dollar to my wife. The same dollar I won last year when she bet on Lorenzo.
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Jaimec
Posted on Friday, July 03, 2015 - 11:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Some interesting thoughts on the incident from Jason Pridmore:

http://starmotorcycle.com/marquez-rossi-assen-what s-the-fuss/?inf_contact_key=5a17a87779cbf530e25f74 846bfea0c562f151acaba4224d6f12cb5f38548970

I thought it was also interesting that Lorenzo refused to be dragged into the argument after the race; he wanted to see the replays for himself. Once he did, he agreed that Race Direction made the correct decision. "Rossi deserved the win." Wonder how hard it was for him to get out those words? : p
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Pwnzor
Posted on Friday, July 03, 2015 - 12:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The only contention I have in all this is with those who say Marquez made contact with Rossi.

It's the other way around, clearly.

Marquez was there. Rossi tipped it over and ran into him. Marquez didn't stand the bike up and run into Rossi.

No amount of saying it makes it true.

The outcome was fine. One of the two best riders on the track won the race. Period.

See you next round. Marc is back.
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Simond
Posted on Friday, July 03, 2015 - 02:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"The only contention I have in all this is with those who say Marquez made contact with Rossi."

Unless one of them is stationary statements about who made contact with whom are redundant.
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Splatter
Posted on Friday, July 03, 2015 - 06:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Rule #1 of racing is the overtaking rider has the responsibility to make the pass safely. No one who knows anything about racing would see that contact as Vale's fault
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Jaimec
Posted on Friday, July 03, 2015 - 08:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

As I've said before: Marquez has gotten away with that behavior before (just ask Lorenzo). This time he made the mistake of trying it on Rossi. There is a reason he's almost universally known as the "GOAT."
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Jaimec
Posted on Friday, July 03, 2015 - 08:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

As for Lorenzo, he had a HORRIBLE start last season... but he won more races the second half of the season than Marquez. He came into this season fully fit but had some weird "Ben Spies" type luck the first few races, and then set a record for most consecutive laps led in a race. He went from fifth place to one point behind 1st. Only a fool would count him out. Rossi is no fool.
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Figorvonbuellingham
Posted on Friday, July 03, 2015 - 10:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Looks like I wont get to see that race. It was suppose to be on today and all it recorded was 3 hours of friggin lesbian soccer.
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Fresnobuell
Posted on Saturday, July 04, 2015 - 03:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I want some of whatever Pwnzor is smoking cause it's some damn good shit.
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Jaimec
Posted on Saturday, July 04, 2015 - 09:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hey, I'm guilty of it too. Couple of years ago everyone was blaming Marco Melandri for a WSBK incident that saw him and teammate Ron Haslam run off the track before the finish line when they were both racing for BMW. I was the only person who blamed Jonny Rea for an over-aggressive pass that forced them both off the track.

But in my defense, I had a solid reason for that decision. Jonny Rea was on a HONDA.
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Pwnzor
Posted on Saturday, July 04, 2015 - 09:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Rule #1 of racing is the overtaking rider has the responsibility to make the pass safely.

No, it isn't.

AMA rule 8 of section 3.3, sub section B

8. Any rider passing on the inside is responsible for any foul
that results. If passing on the outside, a rider may not
move to the inside unless there is adequate distance to
complete the pass without interfering with the passed rider.
The penalty for interfering with another rider during a pass
may be disqualification.


No one who knows anything about racing would see that contact as Vale's fault

The first half of your statement being false disqualifies you from making the second half of your statement.

Let's listen to Rossi, who I'm sure you would all agree IS qualified to pontificate on the subject:



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