| Author | Message | ||
     Fast1075 |
On the same stage, different act. American P.J. Jacobson finished a respectable 6th in SS. His quickest lap was 1' 31.862. Nice kid. Met him briefly at Daytona. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
This thread could do with a modicum of moderation in the choice of rhetoric. Yep, like a reality check so we can discuss the topic realistically. Point of fact, the post which followed yours.... they might get another decent showing or two. Another??? What have I missed? Rocket in England | ||
| Fast1075 |
Sykes put up a magnificent run today. Is he always that slow on the launch, or is he simply toying with the competition? Is it just my poor hearing, or does the Kawasaki go into stagger fire in slow corner throttle roll-on? | ||
| Elvis |
Yate's race lap times as a percentage of best lap time (both races averaged except Assen where Yates didn't complete any laps in the 2nd race): Phillip Island: 105.6 % Aragon: 105.0 % Assen: 104.8 % Imola: 105.2 % Donington: 104.5 % Those are the numbers and only the numbers. I'll leave the analysis and commentary to those who would rather spend time bloviating on the internet than riding. | ||
| Hughlysses |
^ Those number show things in a considerably different light and seem to indicate slow, but relatively consistent progress. It seems reasonable to believe that if they could have just gotten May's bike running for all 4 practice sessions, he would have made superpole and a 15th or better finish. | ||
| Blake |
Rocket is right. If it is taking "monumental effort" for the Hero/EBR team to whittle tenths from their currently dismal pace, then there is no battle to be won, they should just surrender. I absolutely do not think that is the case! Never Quit! If it were me, I'd fire the team manager and hire someone like Jens Krupper or even Richie Morris. Each are proven winners who know how to get the job done. Trying to do WSBK on the cheap is a horrible mistake. Go EBR! Next year is going to be better. I have to believe that. This is an unmitigated nightmare. I can hardly bear to watch. | ||
| Jaimec |
Ah good... sanity has returned to the series and Rea finished where he usually does. Good show, Kawasaki! | ||
| Court |
>>>Trying to do WSBK on the cheap is a horrible mistake. What do you consider cheap? Frankly, for all we know . . . well aware you may have better info than . . . they are spending more than 3X what the top team is spending. I always caution to too closely make the correlation between spending and performance. I've always told my sons "anytime you see a problem you think money will solve, you don't have a complete understanding of the problem". Don't get me wrong . . . spending may have something to do with the lacking, to date, performance. But money and performance are not always directly linked. That association is akin to equating wealthy and smart and you and I both know some very wealthy blistering idiots. I think there are a host of things that need examining. My comfort lies, in part, in the fact that there are some very savvy folks with a great deal of racing experience (shame they can't while away their idle hours arguing on the on the internet) who are in the thick of this. It's disappointing but I see the potential. And . . . if you do think it's just money, isn't it nice to have a company that could write a $100M check without batting an eye. Be mindful . . .HERO could buy Harley-Davidson with the mornings profit on any given Monday. | ||
| Tpoppa |
they are spending more than 3X what the top team is spending. If that is a true statement, there should be a long list of firings. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
And . . . if you do think it's just money, isn't it nice to have a company that could write a $100M check without batting an eye. Be mindful . . .HERO could buy Harley-Davidson with the mornings profit on any given Monday. Absolutely not! A close friend of mine will not buy an Aston simply because he refuses to set a bad example to his work force. No matter he could afford to buy many many Aston's. Having the money does not instantly mean you can. And clearly Hero can't as they likely would. My guess is, and yes it is only a guess (unlike most other stuff I post which is usually somewhere between fact and f**k all worth knowing), is they have a pretty big reason for not. And I'm guessing again here, as it won't be Hero's money that's the issue, but more likely EBR's inability to use the money in WSBK to get the results. That's because they're trying to do a little something in a big event with a bike they believe can deliver a little something. Reality has proven the bike can't deliver. The next step is to do like all others do that come to WSBK with a view to winning, and that would require Hero writing a very very big cheque and EBR finding the capability to accommodate what such a big cheque would bring. That isn't going to happen. Meanwhile the EBR will plod along, and eventually fade away. At least until a time when Hero and EBR decide they really are up for the job. Then they will build a new bike with a better engine. Or not. So it is about money after all! Rocket in England | ||
| Guy_glover |
Wait till they get this sorted,you guy's will probably go back to calling it a cheater bike. GO EBR | ||
| Britt |
Hey Guy Glover....Sup OldMan? (Long Time No See) Perhaps if they get it sorted, I will just call it a "GoodThing"...Cuz it would be. Geoff's old CrewChief was in my shop a few weeks ago, interesting conversation, He is a good man with a lot of knowledge and loves racing. Britt Lynn Ball Ground GA (Message edited by Britt on May 26, 2014) | ||
| Blake |
I may just be venting. I absolutely agree about the funding. The inability to get Geoff's bike ready to race is, as far as I recall, an unheard of situation in WSBK, or even AMA SBK, at least for a factory or major sponsored team. An adequately funded competent team with a modicum of good management would get the bike ready to race. The results to date scream nothing but lazy, apathetic, incompetent, or grossly underfunded. Not talking about the riders, but if I was Geoff, I'd be in the garage all week riding heard over all relavent points. Think Matt Mladin. These days, success takes more than a racer with the skill and will to compete. Most people need to be pushed to get them to perform exceptionally. Those who don't need to be pushed to excel often have a very difficult time grasping this. They tend to think that other folks are as driven and diligent as they are, or at least somewhat driven. Unfortunately it just isn't true. Most folks will do as little as possible to keep their jobs. I know nothing. All the above is mere opinion based on public observations and years of managing technically and fiscally challenging schedule driven programs. | ||
| V74 |
Donington Park race 1 sykes fastest lap 1'28.779 speed 171.4mph yates fastest lap 1'32.221 speed 154.3mph lap difference 3.442 speed difference 17.1mph for me the speed difference is the killer, fastest supersport ran similar top speed to yates.in the MCN 1190 review they said the stock bike should be good for over 180 so whats holding the race bike back ? is there a track on the WSB calendar coming up where top speed attainable by any bike is 150 ? if there is this should put the 1190 in contention hopefully, team management have recently been blamed for lacklustre results but if the bike can't match the other bikes for top speed its not their fault the bike won't go fast enough. this is tech territory. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Just to clarify Blake. When I say funding, I believe funding leads to a new engine / bike, or both. If this bike could deliver more I believe we'd be seeing significant improvements by now, 5 races in. As it is we are hardly seeing any improvements to performance at all. And I'm not slating the bike or those trying. Rocket in England | ||
| Neutrum |
i stay with the brake-system - they brake earlier than the other bikes. before the measuring-point and not right after, as the others do. | ||
| Hughlysses |
^ But the brakes have not been a problem in AMA and the EBR bikes have run MUCH faster speeds in AMA. That's what's baffling about their efforts this year. If they were exceeding the fastest speeds they've achieved with the 1190RS in AMA (which seemed like it would be a given since the rules for modifications are more liberal in WSBK), and THEN the brakes were causing problems, that'd make sense. If a new bike or engine is what's required for EBR to be competitive in this series, maybe it makes sense they haven't progressed further than they have. Even Hero isn't going to dump buckets of money into the development of an engine which would be rendered useless by the rule changes promised for next year. Maybe all they're doing is making laps gathering data for a new bike design that will be legal and competitive under the EVO rules next year. If so, it's gonna be a LONG season for us EBR fans.  | ||
| Fast1075 |
I understand Blake's point of view. I agree with it wholeheartedly. I do not understand the undriven, those forced to accomplishment. In the industry I work in, I am often tasked with picking up the pieces of a failed program and turning it around. In my experience, failed programs result from either (a) Incompetent program operation, which includes the vendor as well as the owner's staff overseeing the program. (b) Insufficient financial support. Some would raise the question of "technical" issues. Such are part of the selection process of materials, supplies, labor, and talent as needed. A properly commissioned team includes those required resources, along with the flexibility to enable it. Component failure? Failure analysis and modification. Process failure? Analyze and change. Success requires looking beyond the "is". Who knows why an AMA 1190rs is faster than the current SBK machines. Or why Cory's machine is faster than Larry's. But I'll bet the problem is staring someone right in the face, waving it's arms. But then again, I am just an old A/C mechanic. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
What are the top speeds of the 11900 in AMA? Rocket in England | ||
| Riohondohank |
Cory West's top speed at Daytona this year was 197.5 mph. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
181.378 mph Imola. Daytona's an exception to other tracks. How about EBR's highest top speed achieved at a track other than Daytona? Rocket in England | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
for me the speed difference is the killer Speed / time differences, highest placed EBR v winner. Philip Island: Yates, lap difference 4.861 sec speed difference 42.8 kph Yates 5.311 sec 41.6 kph Aragon: Yates 5.15 sec 33.1 kph Yates 5.266 sec 32.6 kph Assen: May 4.042 sec 28.4 kph Imola: Yates 5.442 sec 25.4 kph May 5.882 sec 24.2 kph Donington: Yates 3.866 sec 27.4 kph Yates 4.045 sec 21.4 kph Rocket in England | ||
| Hughlysses |
Rocket- I've been trying to find some other speeds to compare, but apparently AMA doesn't list speeds in their track statistics. They do list best lap times. For the 2013 season, here's a listing of the winner's times versus the fastest EBR times for each event: Daytona Cardenas 1:36.835 / May 1:39.444 Road America Hayes 2:12.954 / May 2:15.807 Barber Hayes 1:25.348 / May 1.27.345 Mid-Ohio Herrin 1:25.480 / May 1.27.043 Laguna Seca Hayes 1:24.503 / May 1.26.493 Miller Motorsports Park Cardenas 1:51.001 / May 1:52.856 New Jersey Hayes 1:20.716 / May 1:22.249 Monterey Hayes 1:24.335 / Yates 1:26.381 So, generally around 2 seconds slower than the fastest bike in AMA Superbike compared to 4-5 seconds slower than the fastest bike in WSBK. It just seems like something's not right.  | ||
| Vagelis46 |
It makes perfect sense ..... Much better riders in WSBK than AMA Much faster bikes in WSBK than AMA So the 2sec per lap in AMA , increases to 4sec per lap in WSBK | ||
| Guy_glover |
Betcha it's the new electronics haunting them, | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
I noticed that too Hugh, so I thought someone here might know, or know where to look. The lap time gaps are closer to the winners in AMA but the tracks, tyres, regulations applied to bikes, and a host of other things, make a comparison unlikely here. I wouldn't like to say the riders in WSBK are better to the point they can make the gap between 4 and 6 seconds difference to AMA races. That would show an awful lot of consistency for WSBK riders v AMA riders, but the likes of Hodgson and Ellison, and others should have walked away with AMA titles at every attempt if that were the case. And Spies should never had the success he had either. So that boat doesn't float for me. The top speed is still the mystery then. And it could well be down to the ECU / electronics, EBR's pulsing fuel pump. Will EBR ever tell us? Rocket in England | ||
| Elvis |
Where would Yates and May be if they were on a well sorted bike with a solid team they had been racing with in WSBK for the past 3 years? I would estimate they'd be around 10th place. Why so low? There are currently 3 or 4 riders in AMA Superbike who will consistently beat May and Yates if everything is equal. I think a conservative estimate would put at least 8 or 9 riders at the WSBK level ahead of them with everything else equal. Now take away experience on the tracks and they'll slide back a bit. Take away experience with the team and they'll slide back a bit more. Take away the team's experience with the bike and they'll slide back a bit more. Take away 20 HP on the top end and they'll slide back a bit more. Take away experience with the electronics and tires etc. etc. etc., and realistically, they end up about where they are. It's not something that can be fixed with the wave of a magic wand or addressing one item. It's a long, slow difficult learning process for all involved. With time, effort and constant evaluation and improvement, they should be able to get mid-pack. From there, they will likely need something more. An outstanding rider along with an engine that is capable of putting out more top-end power than the current configuration will probably be needed for that big breakthrough. But it's far too early to be worrying about that big breakthrough. Now is a time for much more fundamental concerns. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
But it's far too early to be worrying about that big breakthrough. Now is a time for much more fundamental concerns. Your whole post excuses EBR's efforts, but it's this nauseating line which needs addressing more. This is WSBK racing. If EBR came here to race more fundamental concerns they should have stayed in a more fundamental series until they got their fundamentals sorted, then had a go at WSBK when they stand a chance of doing some good. WSBK racing is not about racing fundamental concerns. It's the premier league of production motorcycle racing in the world, second only to Moto GP. Rocket in England | ||
| Trojan |
I would estimate they'd be around 10th place. based on what exactly? Neither rider has raced at this level before and not at any of the tracks they currently race on in WSB (except Laguna later this year). So really it is like saying JD Beach could run 10th or Cameron Beaubier 4th? (Both of whom I rate higher thant he current EBR pilots by the way!). Until you get to WSB you never know where you will end up, as the standard is generally much higher than any domestic series in the world. And if you get there on a bike that isn't up to it then you'll never know what you were capable of. The riders are the least concern at EBR at the moment though, as even Marc Marquez would be struggling on it! Despite the usual platitudes in the team press release about constant progress being made blah blah blah.....the speed remains the same at around 30kmh slower than the leaders, they are still 4-7 seconds per lap off the pace and still getting lapped. Much more concerning is the inability to fix a 'technical problem' that saw May miss FP3, FP4, race 1 and race 2 again. Most teams will carry enough spares to build at least one if not two complete bikes from spares in the truck. If you have a persistent problem then build a spare bike or fit another engine/ecu/loom or whatever it takes. The fact that they were unable to fix an electrical problem points either to lack of spares or lack of knowledge surely? The team are experienced at Italian Superbike level, previously running Yamahas I believe. Maybe they are simply out of their depth where they are now? Maybe they lack technical training on the bike, maybe they lack enough spare parts to build a spare bike? Who knows? Whichever the answer may be , celebrating finishing in 17th place (after the Bimotas were removed from the results) and being lapped is just extremely sad for a factory team  | ||
| Gschuette |
@ V74 Regarding the comments on the previous page questioning where the most time is being lost on a circuit. In the most recent issue of Sport Rider there is an article/interview with Kouichi Tsuji, project leader of Yamaha MotoGP. There was an interesting bit of information regarding lap times in MotoGP (I know it's not WSBK but I bet the point remains). He was saying that the biggest gains in lap time come from the way the bike exits the corner, how well it can lay down horsepower without losing too much forward progress to wheel spin or wheelies. He also mentioned Ben Spies being one of the hardest brakers their telemetry had seen yet he couldn't consistently lap at Lorenzo or Stoner's pace when he was in MotoGP. I found it to be an interesting article. I'm a big Yamaha fan but I am slightly suspect of Yamaha discussing Spies. I think they gave him some ill prepared bikes in his final season then threw him under the bus when he couldn't win on a bike with a broken swing arm. Anyway, not trying to jack a WSBK thread to MotoGP, I just think gaining time off the corners applies to WSBK as well. |
