| Author | Message | ||
     Rocket_in_uk |
We are talking Yamaha v Yamaha here, and if those weights and heights are correct, you nailed it this time Jamie. It's Rossi's legs  Rocket in England | ||
| Jaimec |
I've given you multiple explanations as to why Lorenzo doesn't run out of fuel, while Rossi and Crutchlow apparently do (I have no idea on Smith's fuel consumption). Pick whichever you like. I can GUARANTEE it has NOTHING to do with "Lorenzo has a better bike than Rossi." That's just tinfoil hat lunatic conspiracy theory talking. Me, I think it is all down to riding style. Lorenzo's smooth, flowing style naturally consumes less fuel than Rossi and Crutchlow's late braking/hard acceleration technique. | ||
| Trojan |
Me, I think it is all down to riding style. Lorenzo's smooth, flowing style naturally consumes less fuel than Rossi and Crutchlow's late braking/hard acceleration technique. +10 on that one. Pick any fundamenatl part of Lorenzo's technique and it is smoother than pretty much every rider. He brakes sooner and smoother than every other Yamaha rider, yet carries more corner speed. He doesn't stick his leg out into the airflow in the current Rossiesque vogue. He accelerates smoother and has much more precise throttle control than any of the other Yamaha riders of recent years. he stays in 'the bubble' more than any Yamaha rider with the exception of Bradley Smith, who has carried his 'tucked in' style since his 125 days. All the above makes him faster AND more fuel efficient, before we even start talking about rider weight, shape or size. If he has an IAM (Institute of advanced motorists) badge sewn on his leathers I wouldn't be surprised. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
I don't appreciate the sarcasm thank you Jamie, and you don't have to give me the 'pick which ever you like multiple explanation'. I am after all a very experienced mechanic. And a damn good one thank you. And my intelligence tells me that whilst Rossi might not be AS (MARGINALLY) smooth as Lorenzo on the throttle, and as streamlined in the saddle, just who the f**k do you believe we are talking about here? We're not talking about some upstart young gun throttle jockey. We're talking likely the most experienced through achievement motorcycle racer ever to put his arse in the seat of a racing motorcycle. Think about that long and hard before you start to tell me that Lorenzo's throttle hand is so smooth it can account for a lot more cup fulls of go go juice saved at the end of every race compared to his team mate of such greatness on a near identical machine. I don't buy it! It's not a conspiracy theory. It's something I have a doubt about is all. That the greatest rider of all time has a deficit in fuel and in power and in performance over his team mate on a damn near identical bike that he can't seem to close down upon or overcome seems continually odd to me. So much so that Motegi showed both riders for different reasons, finishing a race with what appears to be a 2 litre fuel difference at the end of a 21 litre race over 24 laps. That's near enough a 10% difference in fuel burn, and at this finite level of fuel management I'd say that's a huge difference. Fine if one was riding like Miss f**king Daisy and the other like he had a Moto GP championship to try save. But that wasn't the case. They were both riding pretty much at the limit for most of the race. And looking back over the season Motegi is not an isolated case. And nor is Rossi's experience. What it suggests to me is Lorenzo's bike has a clear advantage over the other Yamaha's, and in particular because we're talking factory Yamaha's, then Rossi's most particular. If that's too much for you to comprehend then fine. But don't come back to me and tell me you GUARANTEE this and it's not a CONSPIRACY theory that. You are after all just another observer is all and nothing more, so don't f**king patronise me or pretend to have some greater knowledge than I. It's a motorcycle forum is all. Your opinion is just that. Nothing more. Nothing less. Just like mine. Get it? Rocket in England | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
+10 on that one. You surprise me Matt. A difference of opinion maybe. But +10? Me thinks you're a bit of a turncoat these days, and and in some way offering criticism of Rossi (now that there's a new kid on the block) is the 'in' thing to do. Almost as if it makes the person offering criticism appear more knowledgeable. I'm sure when the history books are written. Rossi's return years to Yamaha will reveal Lorenzo was served much more favouritism, and that is what we are seeing out on track this season. Rocket in England | ||
| Jaimec |
You never struck me as a "Tin Foil Hat" type, Rocket... but you sure are now. Rossi has proven he can podium and is still capable of winning races... but the rest of the field has moved on and it is a whole lot tougher for him now. Plus, he wasted two years on that red piece of crap and needs to get his "mojo" back. He's the greatest racer that ever lived... but he's still HUMAN. | ||
| Simond |
I can't comment on fuel usage other than to note Lorenzo's superior lap time consistency. The difficulty I have is in understanding Yamaha's motivation to send Rossi out on an inferior bike. By doing so they are kissing goodbye to the Manufacturers title in such a way that all observers assume that the Honda is the best bike and it's only the "genius" of Lorenzo that can make the Yamaha win. A winning comeback for Rossi would be the best PR for Yamaha that you could possibly imagine. It would raise their stock in MotoGP and sell more bikes around the world. ...unless, of course, Lorenzo had an offer to jump ship to Honda and threatened to leave if he wasn't given a bike advantage over his new teammate  . | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
And in being human Jamie, I've seen a Rossi performance all season that tells me if he were on a Honda he'd have been just as much a contender for the title as Lorenzo, Marquez and Pedrosa. If you didn't see that you're stupid, or purposely ignorant to Rossi's ability to support you're dumb observations. The dumbest of all being someone who still sees Rossi as a potential champion must wear a tin foil hat. Just imagine what you'd have seen had Rossi had a bike to win on this season and not the forfeit second fiddle Yamaha to their number 1 rider. Rocket in England | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
A winning comeback for Rossi would be the best PR for Yamaha that you could possibly imagine. A belief held by many now is Rossi being past his sell by date and those who don't believe he is must be wearing tin foil hats. Apparently. Rocket in England | ||
| Trojan |
Me thinks you're a bit of a turncoat these days, and and in some way offering criticism of Rossi (now that there's a new kid on the block) is the 'in' thing to do. Almost as if it makes the person offering criticism appear more knowledgeable. Please don't think that, coz it just ain't true. I still think Rossi is the best racer of our generation and it will be a very long time until anyone comes close to taking his crown. What I actually think is that Rossi is still struggling to get the Yamaha to do what he wants, having left the development direction to Lorenzo during his holiday at Ducati. Maybe winter testing will bring some new parts or a new setup that they have been chasing all year. The problem these days is that with no testing allowed during the season almost every practice session is a test that is just too short. I believe that Rossi still has at least one or two seasons at the very top (and that includes the top 4) and is still very much in the alien bracket. He is hampered by current ridiculous fuel restrictions that actually make a mockery of racing and the idea of cutting costs though. Hopefully the powers that be will eventually change the MotoGP class weight limits to include rider and bring them into line with pretty much every other race class. That would certainly bring the heavier/taller riders back into the equation. However......at the moment Lorenzo is on the top of his game, has the bike that has been developed around him and is unquestionably the number one rider in the Yamaha camp. It will take an awful lot even for Rossi to be able to beat him in a straight fight. Marquez is just plain fast and fearless, and has the best bike on the grid. To beat him and Lorenzo Rossi will have to ride the perfect race with no mistakes, and this is what scuppered his chances at Motegi. I'll still be wearing my VR46 hat for Valencia and beyond, but I try not to let it influence my objectivity  | ||
| Jaimec |
Logic doesn't seem to work for those wearing the tin-foil hat, Simon. | ||
| Xb1125r |
why why why can't you boys get it Rossi is done and has been for a while. At least Spies was bright enough to realize he was done and to move on. | ||
| Jaimec |
If Rossi is, as you say, "Done," then we might as well just eliminate the other 18 riders on the grid too. At least Rossi challenges for the podium; what function do the others provide other than to create obstructions for the top three? Let's just eliminate them all and just let Pedrosa, Marquez and Lorenzo race. That'll work. (Message edited by jaimec on November 05, 2013) | ||
| Trojan |
Let's just eliminate them all and just let Pedrosa, Marquez and Lorenzo race. That'll work. But then one of them would have to finish last, so would (in the words of 1125) be done and should retire. That would leave just two, and of course that means that one of them would finish last, and be 'done'.......you see where this is going? If I was as 'done' as Rossi is now I would immediately take up a lucrative career racing motorcycles. | ||
| Jaimec |
 By the way, Happy "Gunpowder Day," Matt! (Message edited by jaimec on November 05, 2013) | ||
| Pwnzor |
I love watching Rossi. Truly a great rider. Marquez, Lorenzo and Pedrosa are EXCITING to watch. Before last season, only ever watched races in passing. These three have brought spirited competition to something I used to find boring. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Thanks for a thought out response Matt. I've opened up a discussion about the fuel thing and Rossi, so it disappoints me and winds me up when respected commentators in this topic reply with words that do little to add to a well thought out debate but instead attempt to ridicule a person for their belief. I do not wear a tin foil hat. I see Rossi pretty much in the way you describe in your most recent post. It appears Jamie doesn't understand I share with you a similar expectation at the very least of Rossi. I guess I will have to try get Rossi to sign my tin foil VR46 hat next season at Qatar! Rocket in England | ||
| Jaimec |
Rocket, I accuse you of wearing a tinfoil hat because you INSIST on believing the ONLY reason Rossi runs out of fuel, or can't compete with Lorenzo is because Yamaha is giving him (and EVERYONE else but Lorenzo) an INFERIOR bike. THAT is what I find idiotic. Despite everything Matt and I have explained to you, you continue to hold on to the belief that the ONLY reason Lorenzo wins is because he's got a better bike than Rossi. Not that he's a better rider... not that he's probably the most gifted rider in the series. No, you cling to the belief that he ISN'T that good and instead Yamaha somehow managed to give him and HIM ALONE some kind of MAGIC MOTORCYCLE. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Ok Jamie you make a fair point with some of your criticisms of my views, but you go too far when you state IDIOTIC and MAGIC MOTORCYCLE in shouty txt. I do strongly believe there is a major difference in fueling as witnessed most obviously to me at Motegi. It's not a magic bike. It's pretty much as Matt describes. Except on top of that there appears to me to be another issue with how Rossi's bike uses more fuel for him to try and extract as much as he can from it whilst Lorenzo's bike does not show the same issues at all when he extracts as much as he needs to (as displayed at Motegi more than elsewhere), and I don't see that as Lorenzo's smooth right hand. Aerodynamics, weight, height or any other similar observation. It's in the ECU and the electronics controlling what the tyre is taking from the engine at any given time in my opinion. Rossi's algorithm, variations in maps or whatever, they are what's ALSO costing him the lack of extra pace that Lorenzo's bike (not Lorenzo himself) has. That you don't agree is fine. I have arrived at my conclusion in a most thought out way to me. That you don't agree I am open to discussion on with you or anyone else. But I am not here to be ridiculed or insulted because of my thoughts. And for the record, Lorenzo is top of his game. He is fast as f**k. But he is not and never will be anywhere near as great as Rossi. Not in one race never mind a championship. That's because Lorenzo has everything it takes to be the best rider in the world, yet he lacks the one thing that Rossi has always had. You want to know what it is? It's what Marquez has and we all can see it. Had Marquez really wanted to he would have beat Lorenzo at Motegi save the fact he did the thinking racers thing and play safe. Rocket in England | ||
| Trojan |
That's because Lorenzo has everything it takes to be the best rider in the world, yet he lacks the one thing that Rossi has always had. I believe that one thing missing from Lorenzo's armoury is character, personality or charisma (call it what you will), despite his sometimes lame attempts to emuloate Rossi in his post race celebrations. This is what distinguishes memorable champions from merely successful sportsmen. Sebastian Vettel may win many world championships but will never be seen as good as Ayrton Senna, likewise no heavyweight boxer will ever be as good as Ali, Barry Sheene will always be remembered as the most memorable UK world champion regardless of actual results and statistics. Lorenzo or Marquez may eventually eclipse Ross's record, but will they ever remembered as fondly or be deemed 'The GOAT'. It takes more than sporting ability to be real champion, and these people only come along once in a generation if we are lucky. We have been lucky enough to witness Rossi at his very best, and even if he fades away now it will not diminish his achievements one jot (Message edited by trojan on November 06, 2013) | ||
| Jaimec |
That's pretty much it. NOT riding ability... it's "LIKE-ability" (for want of a better word). Lorenzo is more colorful than Pedrosa, but lacks the charisma of Rossi (NO one has Rossi's charisma). By the way... other than planting his "Lorenzo's Land" flag when he wins (and his sky-high leaps from the podium), I can't remember any other "Race Celebrations" he's done since Rossi had left for Ducati. It looks like he's given that up. In any event, I do find Lorenzo very likable. But I also agree he is no Rossi in THAT regard. ON A BIKE, however, right now he is the best there is. | ||
| Blake |
Lorenzo is to Rossi like Michael Jordan was to Irvin (Magic) Johnson. Lorenzo invests a lot more of himself into mastering his sportcraft where Rossi enjoys more inborn talent. I admire both. Pedrosa is more difficult to like. His success is owed largely to his diminutive stature. | ||
| Xb1125r |
Lorenzo just gets it done, Rossi says its the bike fault. you can't compare the both. Jordan is a terrible investor and loses money, Magig ia great business man and makes money. how can you comapre them , really | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
The one thing we have not seen is Lorenzo good on any other bike but the Yamaha. If and when he gets a Honda we will see he can't get anywhere near Rossi who has always had an ability to get the best out of any manufacturers bike, including the Ducati (results not been bettered by their current riders); which was not the same Ducati Stoner had better results on before we go down that road. Has Lorenzo ever set up a good bike, or just inherited one..... Rocket in England | ||
| Trojan |
The one thing we have not seen is Lorenzo good on any other bike but the Yamaha. He was pretty useful on the Aprilia 250 it must be said. I'm also pretty sure that if he was on the current Honda we wouldn't have seen him for dust this year, even with Marquez as a team mate. At Yamaha he wasn't given Rossi's data (remember the infamous wall between them) so had to develop his own bike in his own garage. Once Rossi left Yamaha Lorenzo has led dedvelopment, to the point where the bike no longer suits Rossi's style at all, so Jorge must have some ability to develop the machine to his liking. It isn't the same as when Rossi left Honda, and basically gifted Hayden and Pedrosa a competitive bike for two years, as Lorenzo has had to lead development of the Yamaha from the 800 era to the current 1000 rules, which entailed a lot of changes. | ||
| Jaimec |
Also the unhealthy amount of power Puig holds over Repsol and Honda... | ||
| Jaimec |
There was an article on the 'net (which, naturally, I can't find now) on which the author commented that Lorenzo backed Yamaha into a corner because his riding style is quite "unique." As the bike has been developed around him, NO ONE else has been able to ride it as he can. Witness Cal Crutchlow's comment after seeing Lorenzo's telemetry: If he tried to corner like Lorenzo, he'd crash. Rossi's style apparently suited a wider range of riders, so that anyone jumping on "Rossi's Bike" would be able to do well (OTOH, I do remember Colin Edwards saying he rode Rossi's bike back when they were on the same team and he couldn't get the "feel" he needed from it). I'd say Ducati had the same problem with Stoner, but I'd be mistaken... because even Stoner did worse and worse with that bike as his seasons on it progressed. Let's see what happens NEXT season as Yamaha will have input from both of their factory riders then (though Lorenzo is clearly their "Number 1" rider, I'm sure they'll also value Vale's input as well). | ||
| Trojan |
Let's see what happens NEXT season as Yamaha will have input from both of their factory riders then (though Lorenzo is clearly their "Number 1" rider, I'm sure they'll also value Vale's input as well). I think we will effectively see two very different Yamahas next year. One (Rossi)will probably look more like the 2009 setup with a different front end and very different geometry. Lorenzo will continue down the development path he has been on for the last 2 years and I think his bike will just be an evolution of what we have seen this year. Both Yamaha riders have expressed a desire for more power, but how they get that and reduce fuel by another litre is hard to see (which is why the employ cleverer people than me!). It will be very interesting to see whose setup the guys at Tech 3 start to copy next season, as both will be inexperienced even though Bradley has a year start on Pol in MotoGP. Bradley Smith has really been riding the outdated 2011 bike mostly this year, so will move up to the best satellite setup next year which is basically what Cal has now. Hopefully he will continue to improve and not be eclipsed by Espagaro, who is obviously the new Yamaha great white hope. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Clearly I'm having a couple of bad days commenting here, as I'm sure I remember reading, Lorenzo had a massive lift up at Yamaha by being able to share Rossi's data, and only later did Rossi protest and put an end to this with the wall. As for Lorenzo on the Honda. Isn't he too big / tall to be any good on it? Seeing as Rossi is hindered by his size at Yamaha these days. I give in. I'mk off to bed to sleep it off  Rocket in England | ||
| Trojan |
As for Lorenzo on the Honda. Isn't he too big / tall to be any good on it? Seeing as Rossi is hindered by his size at Yamaha these days. Lorenzo is actually quite 'compact' compared to Rossi and the Honda isn't any smaller than the Yamaha. Just adjusting peg/bar/seat relationships is usually enough to make a rider fit the bike even with mini GP bikes these days. I'm sure I remember reading, Lorenzo had a massive lift up at Yamaha by being able to share Rossi's data Maybe in the very early tests he did at yamaha, but Rossi pulled the shutters down pretty quick on sharing data and the bikes have changed a lot since then anyway. Rossi is now in the same situation that Lorenzo was in when he joined Yamaha, and having to try and adapt to somebody elses bike |
