| Author | Message | ||
     Trojan |
No change so far....Marquez from Pedrosa in FP1 with Lorenzo and Rossi 2 tenths down. Crutchlow is still having major arm probelms following his crashes at Silverstone, and was even advised to have surgery two days ago (he refused of course!). He is languishing down in 11th place and seemingly out of sorts so far at Misano. | ||
| Jaimec |
Well that didn't last long at all... | ||
| Crusty |
I wonder if he has a Sponsor for his RC car? | ||
| Trojan |
I wonder if he has a Sponsor for his RC car? I can just see him stalking around the pits stamping onther peoples cars and complaining that kids are spitting at him  Back to MotoGP.....(well moto2 anyway).... Bringing up the rear of the Moto2 FP2 session as expected are the latest 'cash for ride' players, circulating around 4.5 seconds off the pace, at least two of whom are riding what should be front running bikes.....Don't make me angry..You wouldn't like it when I get angry... rant rant 30 25 Azlan SHAH MAL IDEMITSU Honda Team Asia Moriwaki 232.8 1'41.105 2.814 / 0.434 31 10 Thitipong WAROKORN THA Thai Honda PTT Gresini Moto2 Suter 234.8 1'41.256 2.965 / 0.151 32 34 Ezequiel ITURRIOZ ARG Blusens Avintia Kalex 234.7 1'42.324 4.033 / 1.068 33 97 Rafid Topan SUCIPTO INA QMMF Racing Team Speed Up 234.3 1'42.735 4.444 / 0.411 I rest my case M'Lud... | ||
| Svh |
BORING again. Too bad I thought the race would be closer after qualifying. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
That was anything but boring in terms of watching what we haven't quite seen yet this season. 3 Aliens in front of Marquez, and a chance to see how good Marquez is against a few races past, recovering from injury Perdrosa and Lorenzo, and Rossi with a seamless shift too. Clearly Rossi is still not who he was on the Yamaha 2010. What is interesting though was the pass on Rossi. That was text book Rossi done to Rossi by Marquez. And as Steve Parish said on BBC, Marquez has studied Rossi's passing and learned from it. Then there was Pedrosa. And what a fight he put up, but clearly he wore what grip he had left out by trying and re passing Marquez for a corners length, then Ped was done. The only question unanswered today was, could Marquez have caught and beat Lorenzo had he not had to fight with Pedrosa. I think it's pretty clear had Marquez got the start from pole he seems unable to deliver yet, he would have won from the front flag to flag. Does Rossi need a Honda? I think so. Rocket in England | ||
| Simond |
.....only if Honda have invented a time machine. Much as I love seeing Rossi on a more competitive bike I can't see anything putting him on the pace of Lorenzo and Marquez. I see Hernandez is taking over the Ben Spies Pramac ride for the rest of the season. I guess we'll see Alex Lowes on one of the PBM bikes for the last couple of rounds. | ||
| Simond |
After seeing Alex Espargaro's performance this weekend, Nicky Hayden might be taking a step up the grid next year after all. | ||
| Trojan |
The only question unanswered today was, could Marquez have caught and beat Lorenzo had he not had to fight with Pedrosa. I think this time Lorenzo simply had better pace than either of the Hondas. To be leading by 1 second after the first lap is impressive indeed, and from mid race onwards Jorge was going only as fast as he needed to to keep the gap constant. Marquez could probably have gone faster if he hadn't had to dispose of Pedrosa twice, but then I think Jorge could have upped the pace again to cope with that. Rossi is still obviously 'the best of the rest' but the class has moved on during his time in the Ducati doldrums it seems. The bike has been developed for Lorenzo over the last 2 years so Rossi is still trying to adapt his style to suit the current Yamaha, although it is still a vast improvement over the Ducati he was on last year! Will he catch up? I doubt it now to be honest. Age and experience are sometimes not enough to counter youth and bravery. Was it a boring race? It was in terms of result but the battle between Marquez and Pedrosa was rivetting. The sheer difference in style and in cornering lines meant it was fascinating to watch for most of the second half of the race. Strange statements from Ducati and PBM regarding Hernadez move to Pramac. 'The collaboration between the Italian squad and the British team, which is willing to free Yonny until the return of Ben Spies, has made it possible to reach this agreement.' Is this the first sign that Paul Bird will be running Ducati customer bikes next year? He has stated previously that he wants to be running factory bike sby 2015, so is this the first sign of that? It also appears that Laverty will abandon the PBM chassis in favourof Hernandez' ART for the rest of the year too, which would seem to indicate that PBM are going to drop their 'all British' project for next year? Interesting times indeed....... | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
I think this time Lorenzo simply had better pace than either of the Hondas. To be leading by 1 second after the first lap is impressive indeed, and from mid race onwards Jorge was going only as fast as he needed to to keep the gap constant. Marquez could probably have gone faster if he hadn't had to dispose of Pedrosa twice, but then I think Jorge could have upped the pace again to cope with that. Lorenzo is no stranger to fast starts. This race he got a great holeshot the same time Marquez went backwards four places. This is where his 1 second lead came from, and yes it was impressive but let's face it, Pedrosa is not going to risk anything on cold tyres it seems. Pedrosa looks to be lacking the determination to push that bit harder these past few races. The fight with Marquez, if we are to believe Pedrosa stating he lost grip after passing him back, might well not be exactly true. We can see though, that Lorenzo is riding like a world champion despite recovering from recent injury. Pedrosa on the other hand, appears not to be in the fight, save for a few laps yesterday where he demonstrated what he is capable of. I would like to think if I were in the running at this point in the championship to win the world title, I'd give everything I had at his age, fitness, level of ability, no matter the pain. But what pain? He doesn't strike me as a racer in pain when he's in parc ferme. How many times has Pedrosa been this close, and closer, and not won it. It is like he is displaying the signs of a racer who knows he can't beat Marquez. And now he is caught by Lorenzo too. Could Lorenzo go faster to maintain a gap? I think had there been five more laps Marquez would have caught him and passed him. Rossi, I don't know why he dropped off the pace but Burgess has been saying that their problem was losing the race from the get go. Well yesterday Rossi got the get go, but once passed by Marquez he didn't look like he wanted much to do with any place higher than 4th. His bike must be somewhat off the pace of Lorenzo's would be my logical thought, as watching Rossi he doesn't seem to have lost any of his old magic when he puts in his fastest laps. The pass by Marquez though, he really could have made it tougher for him. Rocket in England | ||
| Smoke4ndmears |
Rossi didn't really get the get-go. Espargaro jumping the start and getting ahead of him had a detrimental affect on keeping him with the front pack, though his long term pace was certainly not adequate to stay on the podium. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
There's not a bikes length between Pedrosa to Marquez, Marquez to Rossi, crossing the line for the 2nd lap. I think that puts Rossi firmly up front with any previous Alien experience demonstrated races past. If that's not close enough to support Burgess previously saying their problem has been losing their chances from starting down the grid (not close enough to the front runners from the start) then all we can hope for is Rossi getting poles every race, and being in front off the line. Nah, I think yesterday there was something else that no doubt soon enough Burgess will tell us what it was keeping Rossi in a somewhat distant 4th. Rocket in England | ||
| Trojan |
The problem at yamaha is that they struggle with braking stability. Both Rossi and Lorenzo have complained about this all year but it cuases Lorenzo les sproblems simply because his style is different Rossi. Lorenzo brakes early then carries smooth corner speed, whereaas Rossi brakes late and still has a more traditional '500' style that he needs more braking stability to carry. By the time he gets the bike in a better state for him the seaason will be pretty much over. Whether Yamaha want to put any commitment into building a 'Rossi bike' next year is questionable too, as they have Lorenzo still and Espagaro lined up to replace Vale when he retires. | ||
| Xb1125r |
the problem with Rossi is that he is not Lorenzo. same bikes, Lorenzo gets it done, Rossi complaints like when he was in Ducati. Pedrosa is done, how emberrasing, when Marquez took the lead again. Pedroda has lost his fire , his willingness to compete and settle for second. Motogo GP needs to clean house and let the gusy that dont care to win out. motogo GP should nto be a cushie job. if you dont try to win you should give your seat to another guy in moto 2 or SBK or AMA that wants to win | ||
| Trojan |
Oh dear, here we go again......... Same bike, different rider. Just because the bike is the same doesn't mean it will suit every individual rider as they all have very definite requirements to suit their own style. Over the last 2 years Yamaha have built their bike to suit one rider,and that is Jorge Lorenzo. Of course it is still a very good bike and capable of running at the front, but Rossi needs it to handle differently than Lorenzo. In exactly the same way that Crutchlow, Smith Bradl and Bautista need to set their bikes up to suit theri own style rather than just slavishly copying another riders settings. Likewise at Honda, and if you really watched the race you would not think that Pedrosa has lost any desire or ability to win at all. Hampered from mid race by lack of grip he had no choice eventually to cede position to Marquez, but he didn't make it easy. If you want to criticise riders in MotoGP then I think you should look further down the grid for people who should not be there on ability alone. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Matt, I agree. I have admired Pedrosa's ability since he came to the premier class, but I don't have your expertise to see that he struggled with grip yesterday. It's hard to see especially when he's in a close battle with someone who looks like grip is the last thing he relies upon! And as I pointed out earlier, Pedrosa did say he had no grip after Marquez finally passed him. I bow to your knowledge if it is really grip and not fire from his belly he has lost. Maybe when this is the case, any rider faced with less grip should adopt Marquez's style of slide and squirt. He doesn't even appear to need the front on the track to steer it sometimes! Rossi, yesterday it was clear to see with his Yamaha how it doesn't suit his riding at times. The front was bouncing all over under braking often, and that's when he loses most time. As for 1125's observations, I'd agree if there were faster riders at the rear or in different discipline. But this isn't really the case. In fact I'd say the opposite is true. Hayden and Edwards are still fast enough. Dovi too. Even Elias was fast when they dismissed him. Biaggi another. What is needed are much more competitive bikes and that's not happened in a long time. I hate to say it but CRT might be a more competitive race if everyone were on CRT's. Rocket in England | ||
| Jaimec |
Rossi and Lorenzo have two VERY different riding styles. Rossi is the King of the "Late Brakers" whereas Lorenzo brakes earlier than anyone and carries a very high corner speed (on more than one occasion Crutchlow has remarked that, upon looking at Lorenzo's telemetry data, if anyone else tried those lean angles and speed on their bikes, they'd crash). Somehow, Lorenzo seems to defy physics at every race. "Martillo y Mantequilla." | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
I don't think there's Any disputing that Jamie, except to add, Rossi may not be alone in the late braking zone. Pedrosa is there too, and Marquez. And yesterday we had a fine display of Marquez trailbraking his pass on Rossi when he appeared to do the opposite to late brake. He let the brakes off and ran wide toward Rossi then trailed it out the corner. I really thought Rossi should have covered that one far more aggressively. Rocket in England | ||
| Trojan |
Marquez is definitely a different breed, and the first really that hasn't come through the old 250 route, where edge grip, corner speed, millimetre perfect lines and braking confidence were prerequisites. His riding style allows him to take wildly different lines to the classic lines adopted by Pedrosa and Lorenzo in particular. Other riders need to adapt their style in order to beat him for sure. With the lack of electronic engine braking in Moto2 we have seen some lurid riding styles coming through (it isn't just Mrquez who gets his elbow down now - Bradl, redding and a lot of other Moto2 riders all do it). I think next year we will see a new phalanx of bright young riders schooled in sideways Moto2 action coming through into MotoGP, and it will be all the better for it. My only regret is that Scott Redding will be on a 'production' Honda so will have to wait until 2015 to get to the front with Marquez and Espagaro to renew their Moto2 battles Intersting that you mention Elias, as he was probably the rider whose performance was most affected by tyres and grip. When he had Michelins 'special overnighhters' he was capable of beating Rossi, but on the spec Bridgestones he was terrible. Even on the Moto2 Dunlops he struggled to break into the top 20 most of the time. Move forward a coupleof weeks and put him on the soft Pirelli WSBK tyres and he is transformed into a possible race winner once more! I really thought Rossi should have covered that one far more aggressively. I think Rossi just bowed to the inevitable and concentrated on his own race. Bashing fairings with Marquez usually ends up with Marquez coming off better and Rossi knows that Marc won't take prisoners, so probably settled for 4th and hoped one of the others might fall off or have machine trouble  | ||
| Jaimec |
Rocket, my point was in the Yamaha camp. The Hondas are all "Point and Shoot" specialists. Since Rossi's departure, the M1 has been less "point and shoot" and more continuous smooth speed through the turn. The more speed you can carry through the turn, the less you require horsepower to fire you down the straight. That's hurting Rossi, but plays into Lorenzo's almost ballet-like riding style. | ||
| Simond |
Rossi knows that Marc won't take prisoners Would you have ever believed that you'd be saying that about a 20 year old rookie? What a difference to last year - quicker than Stoner and a smile to go with it. | ||
| Jaimec |
"Stoner?" Who's that?  | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
What a difference to last year - quicker than Stoner and a smile to go with it. This one is definitely going in the BadWeB best quotes of all time, if Blake ever publishes the darn book, lol! Rocket in England | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Rocket, my point was... I understood. Was just adding to the list of late brakers, not that any of them are gonna catch Marquez's chuck it in anywhere style. That Marquez rides like I use to ride my 916 Rocket in England | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
With the lack of electronic engine braking in Moto2 we have seen some lurid riding styles coming through (it isn't just Mrquez who gets his elbow down now - Bradl, redding and a lot of other Moto2 riders all do it). So what is it that Marquez has that we haven't seen from other Moto2 riders? We only have to go back a few years to see many of the premier class racers 'backing it in' yet Marquez appears to be 'backing it in' and 'backing it out' wherever and whenever he pleases. It's as if someone put soap on his tyres and said there ya go if you can ride on these you'll set a new standard when you have race rubber. I think next year we will see a new phalanx of bright young riders schooled in sideways Moto2 action coming through into MotoGP, and it will be all the better for it. I hope you're right but why have we not seen such so far. Or more to the point, why is Marquez the first to display this rodeo style? I think Rossi just bowed to the inevitable and concentrated on his own race. Yes I think you're right. Rocket in England | ||
| Bads1 |
I think what we are seeing in Rossi is confidence issues. I think hes got a lot left in the tank. It mental and he needs to get past it. (Message edited by bads1 on September 16, 2013) | ||
| Trojan |
I hope you're right but why have we not seen such so far. Or more to the point, why is Marquez the first to display this rodeo style? Actually I think there are plenty of other Moto2 riders with similar style to Marquez (maybe not quite so fast though), but the media has concentrated on him and rightly so in some ways. He is the first to arrive in MotoGP with this style though (Bradl still has vestiges of the old 250 style). Tom Luthi, Nakagami, Espagaro, Redding and kallio to name but a few all drag their elbow and slide the bike into corners in Moto2, and just might carry this into MotoGP with them when/if they arrive. Marquez is a once in a generation rider that has huge talent of course, but we must remember that also rode for the best funded Moto3 team and the best funded and biggest Moto2 team before arriving in MotoGP to ride for the best funded and biggest MotoGP team. It would have been interesting to see how he coped with riding a mid grid or worse bike. I think we would have seen a lot more accidents and incidents when he is pushed hard, as we did in Moto2 & Moto3. What Marquez has done is to arrive in MotoGP and show that the current bikes can be ridden in a different way than Lorenzo and pedrosa ride. This has a similar effect that the arrival of Kenny Roberts did in Europe, forcing established riders to look at their 'traditional' riding style and have to change to keep up. The next couple of years will certainly be interesting to see who can wrest the crown from Marquez thats for sure | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Agreed Matt, but why are we not seeing the Marquez style from the likes of say Iannone, Corti or Aleix Espargaro. Or even Smith or Pirro if you expect to see it from other Moto2 riders who may make the premier class anytime soon, given these ex Moto2 guys are already here, and have raced against Marquez in 2? Begs the question also, we have seen many of the current long termers in GP back the bikes in seasons passed. So if it's suiting Marquez and he can do it, why can't the others when they're no stranger to the technique. The simple answer would be, Marquez is as you say, a once in a generation racer, but it still would not explain why the others cannot emulate his style if this is what might be required. And whilst the bikes might be set up to the current favoured riding style, Marquez then would appear to have taken the bike by the bars and wrung its bars off, in what, half a dozen races. So why can't the others? Another important question not yet asked of Marquez. When are we going to see him dressed as a chicken, or stop for a trackside piddle on his celebratory lap? Rocket in England | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
I think what we are seeing in Rossi is confidence issues. I couldn't agree with that. Rossi's lap times and race pace suggest anything but confidence to me. Perhaps a lack of confidence in front grip, but certainly not in his frontal lobe me thinks. Rocket in England | ||
| Trojan |
The simple answer would be, Marquez is as you say, a once in a generation racer, but it still would not explain why the others cannot emulate his style if this is what might be required. It was explained to me like this. Riding style is very much like handwriting or regional accent. You can change it but it takes a lot of work and concentration to change once you have developed your own style. When riders arrive in MotoGP they are told that they need to ride in a certain way to go fast and tend to spend most of the first year trying to 'unlearn' supposed bad habits. maybe this is wrong and they shoudl just ride with the style they have developed up to that point like Marquez seems to have done. Look what happened to classic European 'traditional' style riders when Kenny Roberts and the other US riders first took Europe by storm and were able to ride the firebreathing 500's in a fashion that we had never imagined. Not many of the Euro riders were able to emulate that style and werer eventually replaced by riders that could. Since the introduction of 4 stroke GP bikes and new fangled electrickery, the fastest style has been to keep the wheels in line and ride like Jorge Lorenzo in a calssic 250 style. Now we may be at another crossroads wherre power/tyres/chassis/electronics allow or even dicate a different style again, and Marquez is in the vangaurd. Iannone, Espagaro et al have basically tried to ride the MotoGP bikes like Lorenzo because that is what they are told is correct, even though they werer spectacular in Moto2. Likewise Bradl has only recently started to look anything like his Moto2 winning year and started to slide the bike more. I remember when it was a big deal to see a rider get his knee on the ground (First one I saw was Paul Smart, with gaffa tape onhis knees!), now it seems that the style needs to evolve once more. |
