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José_quiñones
Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 06:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Road Racing World, during the past three issues, has been featuring some of the bikes being raced in AMA Formula Extreme this year. The Honda CBR600RR, the Buell XB and the Ducati 749R have been featured so far. Here's a table which summarizes their features.

FX Bikes comparedRoad America
AMA measuredCost to
BikeHPRedlineWeightTrap SpeedBuild
CBR600RR140???351162.2440-50k
Buell XB1160RR1208500365161.8920k plus
Buell XB1290RR1357500
Ducati 749R14013500368161.6060k
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José_quiñones
Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 06:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

FX Bikes compared
BikeItems labeled "Stock" by RRW
CBR600RRairbox, shock linkage, swingarm, tach, throttle bodies, valve retainers
Buell XB1160RRrearsets, rods, rear subframe, fairing mount & tach, front wheel & rotor. Frame is stock w/ welded on frame slider mounts.
Buell XB1290RR
Ducati 749RAirbox, crank, cylinders, pistons, rods, subframe, swingarm
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José_quiñones
Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 06:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

BikeChassis Modifications
CBR600RRHRC Carbon Fiber rear subframe, WSS spec transmission, CBR1000RR Superbike Spec Showa suspension, $15,000 Motec Fuel Injection System, Jardine titanium exhaust system, Marchesini RC51 Superbike spec wheels. Pace (UK) oversized radiator. Brembo radial calipers
Buell XB1160RRSharkskins Fairing. Hal's ram air intake sytem, chain drive conversion kit/swinarm, Ohlins Fork, Penske Shock, Marchesini rear wheel, J-Stevens steel Exhaust system and oversized oil cooler.
Buell XB1290RR
Ducati 749ROhlins suspension & Marvic magnesium wheels (16.5" Front, 17" Rear). Ducati FIM WSBK spec triple clamps. Ducati FIM WSS spec carbon fiber body work, titanium exhaust system, ECU, Fuel Injection System, gauge cluster, transmission, oversized radiator. Brembo radial calipers with smaller front brake rotors
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José_quiñones
Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 06:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

BikeEngine Modifications"Unobtanium" Parts
CBR600RRStock balanced crank. HRC Cams, pistons, titanium valve shim buckets, valve springs. Cylinder heads ported by Byron Hines, Titanium Pankl Rods from Erion Racing.
Buell XB1160RRStroked and balanced stock crank, Millenium technologies cylinders, Wiseco pistons, Redshift 643 cams, composite pushrods, Screaming Eagle rocker arms, 48.3mm intake and 40.6mm exhaust steel valves, berylium-copper valve seatsBuell Racing Prototype Twin downdraft throttle bodies, 8 piston front brake caliper, close ratio transmission. Buell racing programmable ECU.
Buell XB1290RR
Ducati 749RIncreased compression, ported cylinder heads, Ducati Superbike spec cams & slipper clutch


(Message edited by josé_quiñones on August 12, 2004)
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José_quiñones
Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 06:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

BikeIn their own words
CBR600RRAccording to Dumahel's long time crew chief Al Ludington, the bike is not as exotic as it might seem, and, surprisingly one of the goals in building the machine was to produce a reacebike that Honda racing customers could reproduce. Duhamel's CBR is worth between $40,000 and $50,000 in Ludington's estimation, not cheap, but not expensive compared to the $250,000-$350,000 works Superbike lease. Ludington says that with a few substitutions, the customer could get more than 90 percent of the capability of Duhamel's machine while keeping the cost around $30,000.
Buell XB1160RRSo, could an aspiring FX-racer build this bike? And, if so, how much would it cost? For the most part, Galagan says yes. "Obviously, we have some internal motor parts that you can't buy off the shelf, but a good Harley tuner, I think, could get away with a (competitive) motor for about $5000," said Galagan. "Then buy the forks, rear wheel, swingarm and such from Hal's; it would be pretty affordable." Galagan estimated the total cost would be in the $20,000-plus range which, he said, is considerably less than the $40,000-$50,000 they were spending to try and make the old "tube-frame" Buells competitive.
Buell XB1290RR
Ducati 749RAccording to Meadley, the HMC Ducati is built completely with parts that are available to customers (though some not as readily as others), and is much closer to stock than most would think….. Hansen and Meadley both said that the HMC FX machine is something a customer could, for the most part, build from a catalog, and Meadley estimated it would cost around $60,000.
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R1DynaSquid
Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 06:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Why no info on the 1290..or as we know em 1300 Buells?
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José_quiñones
Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 06:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Look at the first table. I think the rest of the bike is the same no matter what engine is being used.

here's some more info:

Both engines have a 3.8 inch stroke

The 1160cc uses the stock Blast/XB9 Stroke: 3.125, and they are revving it to 8500 rpm

The 1290cc uses a 3.47 inch stroke, that one revs to 7500 rpm
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Crusty
Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 07:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Do you mean both engines have a 3.8 inch bore?
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Wyckedflesh
Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 07:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

yes, 3.8 inch bore. I have the article also, and as soon as I can find it again I will double check the HP figures...the low one seems off but "I" very well could misremember it.
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Blake
Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 07:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Why do you classify the Buell racing ECM as "unobtainium"? If you are a racer, you can get one.

Time to let it go JQ.

If you want, I'll help you get a belly pan.
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R1DynaSquid
Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 08:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

From what I have heard...the ecm they use is from Buell & is only made available to Hals & I believe Kosco..nobody else can get one.
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Spike
Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 09:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

So, what ECM is(was) Tilley's running?
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R1DynaSquid
Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 09:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Tilleys wasnt getting the support that the other 2 teams were. Thats one of the reasons they got out.
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Daves
Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 09:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Not true Dyna, it is available to ANY lic. racer, that races a Buell. From club racers to pros.

Dave
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R1DynaSquid
Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 09:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Did that change recently? If so, cool for the racers. In the past it was an unobtanium part.
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Daves
Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 10:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Always been that way as far as I know. I know 3 teams that are using it.
I am not sure if it's the same one Hal's and Kosco are running though?
The one you can get is made to run with the existing FI.


Dave
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R1DynaSquid
Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 10:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Ahh, so there may be more than 2 "race" ecms out there.

We have the generic one anyone can buy at the dealers.

Then there is the one available for club racers

And 3rdly there still may be an "unobtainable" one for pro race teams such as Hals & Kosco.

Remember that Hals & Kosco dont run the existing FI setup, they have dual units.
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Daves
Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 10:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yeah I know, that's why I am not sure what they run.
I am willing to bet that whatever they run would be made available to any other team that wanted to field a Buell in that class.

Dave
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Wyckedflesh
Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 11:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

According to the article it is available to any racer, and is programmable.
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Blake
Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 11:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The one I know that some club racers have received is fully programmable. What else would you need?
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Blake
Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 11:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

And at Laguna Seca the Buell FX machines were running the stock 6-piston calipers. They only tried the 8-piston version at Road America, where it didn't work as well as they had hoped.
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Slaughter
Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 02:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

OK OK...

I spent the day at Hals Monday. We're running the same ECM and they actually INVITED me to come in to ask dumb questions.

The race ECM can control EVERY aspect of the motor. You set it up separately for each cylinder because the heating really does make the tuning different front to rear - kinda like tuning 2 big singles. You're controlling 2 injectors whether in my bored XB12 throttle body or if you use 2 completely separate throttle bodies. The software is DOS-based. If you're not used to programs that use look-up tables in a non-graphic format, might take some figuring out but does really give you good control of the motor - but also easy to melt it down if you're not careful. It just takes getting used to. It also controls fan speed and direction - temperature thresholds, stuff like that (not needed since the fan is out of the racebike)

We got a module, yes but it's not really available from Buell on demand, you gotta do some begging but if you do have a built motor, you're out of the range that a normal Power Commander can do any good for you.

By the way - the Hals guys are really open for business supporting not just racing but also offer comprehensive performance services at any level. Got a nickle tour. They are a great crew of folks who are really into this sport - and not just racing. I'll be having them re-build my S3 motor when it's time is up.

Spent some time while there talking to Bilansky - our motors are similar - short stroke 1160. (Though I'm just not in his league as far as skills go!) He and Terry have really got the engine controls pretty well dialled in and offered some thoughts on setting redline - I dont' have a second/B bike - my motor has to last at least 3 months, I can't afford the rebuild-a-month-Club membership! Duga advised leaving redline at 7500 to have the motor last a LONG time but Bilansky said it's better to have it at 7800 because the rev limiter is pretty sharp and VERY hard on the bottom end. That extra 300 RPM can make a difference when drafting. Recommended shifting at 7500 - about the top of the curve anyways. I'm leaving the redline low just to keep the motor together longer. I'm also only running 10.5 to 1 compression and VP C10 gas. Pretty mild motor - might be good for about 110-HP

Hope to have the XBeast on the track in a couple weeks. Dyno at Bartels next week... Maybe WERA Vegas, couple track days in early Sep and then F-USA in Vegas in September. Wooo hOOOO!

By the way, I paid retail (less racer discount) for everything I got from Hals so am not obligated to promote them - I am just very impressed.

(Message edited by slaughter on August 13, 2004)

(Message edited by slaughter on August 13, 2004)
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Cataract2
Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 06:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

All I can say is wow. I can't believe they can make a bike like that with only 20K when the other teams (non Buell) spend 40K or more. I won't what they could get if they spent 40K for more mods.... Kudos to the Buell team.
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