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Rocketsprink
| | Posted on Friday, December 04, 2009 - 05:28 pm: | 
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The next question is....Would Eslick have done better with a 2-disk brake setup ??
NO |
Backcountryme
| | Posted on Friday, December 04, 2009 - 06:05 pm: |
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Hard to tell if Danny would have done better with a 2 disk brake. Really, the Buell is more then just it's brakes. I know at a couple of rounds they had some problems with the brakes and turn in. But with some work they (RMR) got it all going again. All things being equal it is just hard to say that the brakes made the difference last year. |
Patrickmitchell
| | Posted on Sunday, December 06, 2009 - 10:28 am: |
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Just to play devils advocate:
Multiple manufacturers have adopted the under slung exhaust systems that first appeared on Buells...
If the ZTL2 system is really superior, why haven't we seen it appear on more race bikes? |
46champ
| | Posted on Sunday, December 06, 2009 - 11:14 am: |
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Patrick maybe because with the under slung exhaust it was easier to get around the patents by not having all the muffler under the bike, note that most of them had part of the tail pipe next to and above the swingarm. I don't know the dates but I think the patent has just about ran out, or has ran out.
The ZTL2 brake would be harder to get around, the brake rotor is either fastened to the wheel rim or it isn't with the floating design that Erik Buell patented or it isn't.
The under slung muffler has been here since 1986 the ZTL brake since 2002. The other manufactures havn't had as much time to come up with a design to circumvent the brake patent. |
4cammer
| | Posted on Sunday, December 06, 2009 - 11:47 am: |
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There is no way bike makers will go to a single disk setup. Not after all the (maybe biased) negative remarks in regards to the Buell setup that has been stated over and over both on the net and in print. Look how long it took them to finally allow that Buell was right in regards to exhaust placement.
That is of course until Brembo comes out with a single wheel/rotor/caliper solution that costs $$$$$$, is cut from a single 200lb block of aluminium and has a new shade of gold ....then it will be a workable and real alternative to the dual disks seen now.
(Message edited by 4Cammer on December 06, 2009) |
Dentguy
| | Posted on Sunday, December 06, 2009 - 01:00 pm: |
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Multiple manufacturers have adopted the under slung exhaust systems that first appeared on Buells...
I don't think it was a Buell first.
http://www.rmauctions.com/CarDetails.cfm?SaleCode= MO07&CarID=r134
Patrick maybe because with the under slung exhaust it was easier to get around the patents by not having all the muffler under the bike, note that most of them had part of the tail pipe next to and above the swingarm. I don't know the dates but I think the patent has just about ran out, or has ran out.
I don't think that Erik has/had a patent for under slung exhaust location. I think the patent he has is for muffler design, not location. |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, December 06, 2009 - 02:17 pm: |
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"I don't think it was a Buell first. "
Right, the modern sport bike industry is looking to antique bicycles with engines for their repli-racer design cues.
The simple answer is that the ZTL-II only just recently proved itself in top competition against conventional systems AND it is patented. As it evolves in racing and continues to prove its benefits, it will garner more and more interest.
(Message edited by blake on December 06, 2009) |
Dentguy
| | Posted on Sunday, December 06, 2009 - 04:34 pm: |
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Did I say something that isn't true? |
Cluckcluckpush
| | Posted on Sunday, December 06, 2009 - 05:40 pm: |
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Erik invented the motorcycle and all racebikes were replicas of his ideas. |
Badlionsfan
| | Posted on Sunday, December 06, 2009 - 05:52 pm: |
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I invented the Internet and the question mark. |
Trojan
| | Posted on Monday, December 07, 2009 - 10:50 am: |
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I love this site 
Mention on Friday about ZTL....take the weekend off and come back on Monday to see that the discussion is still going on...brilliant
Maybe if I were to say that the 1125 was one of the ugliest bikes I have ever seen (with the possible exception of the Bimota Mantra) it would run for even longer I'm sure the Buell zealots will out with some stout rope very soon  |
46champ
| | Posted on Monday, December 07, 2009 - 10:59 am: |
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Geeze Matt your just not stirring the shit, your using an oar.  |
Vagelis46
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 08, 2009 - 10:33 am: |
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Here is more oil in the fire.......
Jezza McWilliams interview in BIKE :
Words Gary Inman Photography Chippy Wood
68
Jeremy McWilliams
g u n f o r h i r e
As we were putting together this issue it became clear one man had a connection with many of its
major elements: Moto2; the demise of GP 250s; KTM’s growth; Buell’s demise; BMw’s incredible
s1000rr… with very little hoo-ha, chest-beating or hype, Jeremy Mcwilliams continues to skillfully
navigate the minefield that is the career of the professional motorcycle racer. The Ulsterman is one of
the last of the old school. He wasn’t the son of a racer. He didn’t even start racing motorcycles until he
was 23. It’s been a struggle, punctuated by headline-grabbing successes. More recently Mcwilliams
has reinvented himself as a race and road bike development rider. Bike speaks to the gun for hire
‘The development work comes from a need to
continue to work,’ explains McWilliams. ‘I’ve been
involved in the industry for many years and got a
reputation for being quite a good development
rider. Someone along the way has said, “We were
struggling with that and [Jeremy] came in and it
was a lot better.” But I don’t know when that was.’
The life of a freelance development rider is even
more transient than that of a racer.
‘You arrive in a team and people look down their
noses at you and think, “What does this old eejit
know?” So if you can find something and point it
out quickly, then the team back it up when you’re
sat behind the computer, they get behind you and
that’s the only way I can work with teams.’
McWilliams was involved in the development
of the Buell 1125R, the early stages of the BMW
S1000RR Superbike and, most recently, KTM’s
RC8R Superbike racer.
‘Buell brought along an 1125R [test mule] and a
GSX-R1000. They asked me to ride around this
tight, bumpy track, north of Chicago, and even
though the GSX-R was a lot more potent, the Buell
was able to lap within half-a-second of the Suzuki.
‘The Buell came with aluminium sidepods, so I
had no idea what it would look like. It was a chassis
with a nose cone stuck on it. And we know it didn’t
turn out pretty. The guys took me into their
modelling room in Milwaukee. Erik Buell wasn’t
there and I don’t think he’d have liked what I said,
but I told his right-hand man, “This bike works well
on the road and the track, it has a lovely smooth
motor, but it isn’t a sportsbike design for a market
outside America. Europeans are going to wonder
why it isn’t as pretty as it needs to be.”’
McWilliams had nothing to do with the 1125R
design, but he knows if chassis or engine traits,
either for a road or race bike, are wrong and not
easily put right he has to stand up and say it.
‘It’s difficult to tell a team or a factory that a
project is never going to work. I’ve had to sit
development teams down and say, “This engine
with this chassis and these electronics is never
going to be competitive.”’
McWilliams’ views put the kibosh on the MotoGP
project Italian company Oral Engineering were
developing (rumour has it) for BMW.
All this development work grew from riding one
of the most unforgiving bikes of all time – Aprilia’s
RS3 Cube 990 MotoGP bike.
‘Shit, I got really hurt riding that. So did Edwards
and Haga, anyone who made an attempt at riding
it. That bike was in charge. You weren’t riding it.
The bike was taking the rider for a ride.’
So Jezza said that the 1125R was OK, but it was ugly, and found the GSXR 1000 "a lot more potent". The GSXR being better is OK Buell's first attempt, but designing an ugly bike is a bad idea.
Let's hear your thoughts...... |
Eboos
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 08, 2009 - 11:19 am: |
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From a sales standpoint, the looks were the most limiting thing about the bike. 95% of the customers that I come into contact with really could care less about the specs and the technology behind the bikes. |
4cammer
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 08, 2009 - 11:21 am: |
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"and even
though the GSX-R was a lot more potent, the Buell
was able to lap within half-a-second of the Suzuki."
Not too shabby. The GSX-R1000 has a bit more development time in it, no? And it ain't no prom queen either. |
46champ
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 08, 2009 - 09:54 pm: |
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The problem is the GSXR is what a lot of the buying public thinks a race replica motorcycle is suppose to look like. |
Trojan
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 04:38 am: |
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95% of the customers that I come into contact with really could care less about the specs and the technology behind the bikes.
Very true indeed. A recent survey of sportsbike riders showed that around 80% of buyers choose the bike because of the looks and styling rather than any difference in performance over other similar capacity machines. Some brand loyalty exists but not as much as people imagine.
The new Yamaha R1 has swept all before it in racing and has been voted machine of the year in various countries, yet sales are not as good as expected simply because it doesn't look as nice as other litre sportsbikes. The ZX10-R by contrast has performed badly in racing yet sells extremely well due to image and styling. |
46champ
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 10:12 am: |
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Always remember sex sells. |
Eboos
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 11:13 am: |
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I tried leaving one less button done up, but that didn't work so well. |
Liquorwhere
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 04:47 pm: |
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So Jezza said that the 1125R was OK, but it was ugly, and found the GSXR 1000 "a lot more potent". The GSXR being better is OK Buell's first attempt, but designing an ugly bike is a bad idea.
I think the 1125R without the lowers or a fairing is a bit clunky in it's appearance, but with the lowers or a fairing kit on it looks freaking awesome. Either way it really doesn't matter, the company was closed and I was lucky enough to get a really nice black on black 09 1125R with lowers, exactly what I wanted, it is awesome and even though I am sure many liter bikes may walk away from it at some point, it is pretty freakin fast, smooth, excellent ergonomics, the wind protection at high speed is just incredible and stable, I have always found the ZTL brakes to be excellent on the street. I don't race them so I cannot comment on the track, but for me the bike is all it is cracked up to be and more. Even when people would say my XB12R was ugly I would look at them in disbelief because I thought and still think that bike looks the business....tubers, Uly's, even the Blast I still have not found an "UGLY" Buell. In the eye of the beholder I guess...wonder how many people thought the bike was ugly and took it for a ride and then bought one? That would be an interesting statistic to me.
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Phillyblast
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 07:10 pm: |
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quote:I tried leaving one less button done up, but that didn't work so well.
Next time try it with your shirt, not your Levis.
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