| Author | Message | ||
     Buellsrule |
Blake's got it right. The reason the 1125R is legal in Superbike is because IT IS a modified 1125R. If it were a 1200 THEN it would be illegal. It is no more illegal than the 1000 that Mladin is riding. And you can not buy anything near Mladin's bike at your local Suzuki dealer. GO BUELL!!! | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
Ok, here's what it boils down as I see it: You can buy a street-legal 1125R, purchase all of the "upgraded" parts form Buell Racing, and end up with an AMA Superbike approved 1125RR- right? But, if Buell Racing takes a street-legal 1125R, installs all of the same race bits and offers it for sale to licensed racers as an 1125RR- now it's not legal for AMA Superbike competition? Is there a rule somewhere that states who can, and who can't physically install the race parts on the stock bike in order to make it legal for AMA Superbike competition? How is this different from what Ducati Corse does with Pegram's bike, or Graves Yamaha, or Yoshimura? I must be missing something here- does anyone argue that Mladin's bike is not based on a stock GSX-R, or Bostrom's on a stock R1, or Pegram's on a stock 1098? However. when Buell steps up and enters its own true superbike competitor- it is somehow not based on the stock 1125R. Can someone please explain to me, in very simple terms, why it seems so obviously clear to me yet so unacceptable to many others. | ||
| P_squared |
If the Buell example were extended to Suzuki/Honda etc what is to stop them producing a high spec race bike for sale to licenced racers in exactly the same way? Hey, now THERE's an idea! Turnkey factory prep'd racebikes. I wonder how many privateers would like to be able to just buy a racebike from any manufacturer without having to do all the work themselves? I have a sneaking suspicion though that the manufacturers wouldn't. It might cut into THEIR teams winning. Can't have privateers showing up the factory backed pro's now, can we? Remind me again about how Mr. Jordan couldn't purchase the race parts from Suzuki for his team that he wanted again? Or the various & sundry stories about the same type of treatment from Honda? Buell is doing it. Good on them. | ||
| Davegess |
There seem to be two possible scenarios here. One would be that at the dealer show next week Buell unveils a street 1125RR. That would be cool. Just shut folks right up. The second is that the marketing folks, with there usual infatuation with NEW MODLELS!!! have gotten carried away with calling this a new model. It sure looks to me like a standard 1125R that has been modified within the rules for the AMA superbike class and sold to the racer as a turnkey bike. It is exactly the same bike that they could build if they bought an 1125R and shipped it off to a race shop. If this is the case Buell should have announced these as race kitted 1125Rs not a new model. Matt, a question for you. Are all the WSB bikes sold as Street legal motorcycles with VIN tags on the frames and then AFTER the sale to the race team they are striped and rebuilt as race bikes? Does Ben Spies bike have a VIN tag? I am thinking that the majority of them are built from scratch as race bikes using the production components required by the rules and what ever race parts or modifications that are allowed. I could be wrong. Also do any of the manufacturers sell complete WSB race bikes to anyone with a license? Will they sell all the race parts to any competitor? | ||
| Trojan |
How is this different from what Ducati Corse does with Pegram's bike, or Graves Yamaha, or Yoshimura? Here is the big difference. One is being done by the individual teams, the other is being done by the factory. Turn the situation on its head and everyone would be calling foul. I have been calling for Buell to be racing in the Superbike class for ages, and will of course be absolutely ecstatic if this does well, but why does Buell have to muddy the waters with this 'buy a race bike' policy instead of offering a factory race kit like the Yamaha/Suzuki/Kawasaki factories. If they did that nobody would be able to call foul because there wouldn't be the slightest reason for it, but now they have given ammunition to people who will of course use it. As soon as you enjoy a favourable position from the organisers/authorities then it upsets outsiders and makes it appear that the playing field isn't level. Surely after all the XBRR and Daytona Sportbike mud slinging Buell can see that better than anyone? | ||
| P_squared |
I think folks are missing the forest for looking at what they think are trees. Joe Privateer can't buy the Corse/HRC/Yosh/Graves equivalent bike that Peggram/Zemke/Mladin/Bostrom race. Joe Privateer can buy the equivalent bike that Knapp will be racing this weekend. Intake (61mm dual downdraft), bore (4.055") & stroke (2.658") have not been changed from the 1125R to the 1125RR. So unless something else is revealed that none of use know about yet, I'd say the extra "R" in the 1125RR is for "Racing"...similar to the F08 at the end of 1098RF08 indicating it's the '08 FACTORY prep'd racebike. Again, good on Buell for not being "stingy" and trying to level the playing field for the privateers out there. | ||
| Bads1 |
I have been calling for Buell to be racing in the Superbike class for ages, and will of course be absolutely ecstatic if this does well, but why does Buell have to muddy the waters with this 'buy a race bike' policy instead of offering a factory race kit like the Yamaha/Suzuki/Kawasaki factories. Because Suzuki,Honda and the like will give you a race kit. But there factory team riders get what Privateers can't get. Jordan's team is proof of that. They still aren't getting what Mladin and Hayden get. Buell is offering this to anyone that wants one as long as your a licensed racer. Suzuki could do it to but they won't because it would possibly give advantage to there own factory riders. Its there stradegy and it won't change. Hell last year suzuki was cheating as well Honda with engine internals and I can't remember but didn't someone get busted this year as well trying run different fuel's. Lets talk honesty here.lol | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Here is the big difference. One is being done by the individual teams, the other is being done by the factory. Turn the situation on its head and everyone would be calling foul. Bullshit. You are reaching Trojan. The parts are available to all. Buell is doing the work with parts ANYONE can buy. This is significantly different from the Japanese factory unobtanium parts. If people are going to cry foul, they need to look at the parts advantage the factory Japanese teams STILL have. Buell's manufacture of a LEGAL AMA Superbike based on a homologated 1125r is NOTHING compared to the selectivity of Japanese manufacturers on who gets the top racing parts and who doesn't. Pull your head out. | ||
| Spike |
I'm missing the meaning behind the "parts availability" argument. Nothing in the AMA Superbike rules says that you have to make the parts you use available to everyone. Are we appealing to some non-AMA moral standard where every race team has access to each others equipment? If Suzuki doesn't want to sell the parts they use to win, they have every right to do so. This is not a spec class or a Race of Champions where every rider gets the same bike. This is Superbike. The concept is simple- you start with a production bike and you can modify it to fit the rules. There is no "we will sell the parts to other racers" clause that allows teams to start with non-production bikes. | ||
| P_squared |
It's not an "argument" per se. It's giving accolades to a manufacturer that is willing to let ANY racer buy their parts. I'd think the privateers in racing would like to be able to get the same parts as the factory teams. Seems Buell is the only manufacturer willing to let that happen. As to the hub-bub over the bike itself, I like all the teeth gnashing & chest thumping going on. To my uneducated eye, it appears to me that Buell is taking an 1125R and putting all of their race goodies on it. It's a facotry prep'd racebike based on the already approved bike. What's the hub-bub bub? | ||
| Paint_shaker |
Spike, That's the beauty of Buell. They ARE willing to sell ANY of their race parts to ANY racer. I gotta say though... The Buell press release could have been better worded. Perhaps it should described the 1125rr for what it really is; a street legal 1125r, pulled from the production line and modified by Buell to AMA Superbike spec. The only thing Buell is doing is saving the rider from having to buy the bike, strip the street parts from it and add the racing parts in order to go racing. | ||
| P_squared |
And the winner for consuming the most hater-aid goes to Superbikeplanet:  http://www.superbikeplanet.com/getVote.jsp?pn=uni0716 I wonder how many emails they get everyday informing them of how full of BS their bias is? If you'd like to add to their inbox: hardscrabblemedia@earthlink.net | ||
| Dentguy |
I gotta say though... The Buell press release could have been better worded. Perhaps it should described the 1125rr for what it really is; a street legal 1125r, pulled from the production line and modified by Buell to AMA Superbike spec. I'm sure Buell worded the press release exactly the way they wanted. If it's what you say it "really" is, then why get approval for another bike when the 1125R was already approved? It could already be modified to superbike specs. I'm guessing there is way more to this than all the speculation going on here to the how and why. | ||
| Bads1 |
The concept is simple- you start with a production bike and you can modify it to fit the rules. There is no "we will sell the parts to other racers" clause that allows teams to start with non-production bikes. Ummm who says Buell didn't start with a production bike?? Sure looks like one to me. They just do it for you. As far Suzuki not supplying there race parts. Jordan has been screaming about this since day one. Your making no sense to me. | ||
| Spike |
Buell does:
What doesn't make sense? The rules do not require them to supply parts to everyone. Suzuki also isn't supplying free pony rides to all the spectators and they didn't send me a birthday card this year. This is not communist road racing. Jordan can complain about it all day long, it doesn't make it illegal. | ||
| Smoke |
from the WERA board yesterday. John29 is John Ulrich who owns race teams and Roadracing World magazine. Buell tried to homologate the kit, DMG wanted it different. i think DMG would like all the manufacturers to offer the same thing to licensed racers. JMO, tim Yesterday, 03:55 PM John29 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Lake Elsinore, CA USA Posts: 8,214 Quote: Originally Posted by caferace Maybe just the rule of common sense. If the rules say a bike has to be certified as a street bike don't announce it as a race-only bike. IMHO. -jim Word I got is, Buell wanted to homologate the parts and they were instructed that they had to build a complete ready to go bike instead. No idea why. | ||
| Smoke |
the bottom line is John's answer in my previous post. the quotes didn't show right when i copied it. i think that it is sold to AMA Superbike only licensed racers because that is the only organization that has declared it legal. i'm sure that if another organization homologizes the 1125rr or the sum of the kit parts it will be available to racers in that organization also. i hope that the 1125R does well at Mid Ohio this weekend!! GO BUELL RACING!! tim | ||
| Elvis |
A few general points: 1. The only people who give two damns about this whole thing are probably people who hate Buell or Love Buell . . . and our opinions aren't really valid because of our prejudices. 2. Some people have commented on this as a "marketing blunder". Anyone notice what today was? Harley earnings announcement day. Anyone think the reason this was announced with a big release rather than quietly slipped into competition may have something to do with trying to distract from a bleak report? 3. Does anyone, on either side of the argument, really think (and if so, can they articulate a reason why) this will - when all the BS is stripped away - hurt rather than be a positive regarding the future of motorcycle road-racing? Does anybody really think this thing has a 300 HP cold-fusion engine hidden beneath the fairing and Taylor Knapp will be looking back wondering where the heck Mladin is? 4. It's still got that ZTL brake and fuel-in-frame and it's not an inline 4, so we all know it can't really be competitive, so who cares anyway? 5. Let's have some fun and enjoy this! Our day is finally here! | ||
| Court |
Never have so many known so little facts and assumed such rigid opinions. >>>>One is being done by the individual teams, the other is being done by the factory. This interests me. Tell me what you think the relationship between Buell MOTORCYCLE Company and Buell RACING is? | ||
| Reepicheep |
Spike, I still don't understand. How do you decide that Buell did not start with a production bike pulled off the line from the statement:
Why can't a "race use only motorcycle intended for competition" also be a stock 1125R pulled from the production line and modified with legal race parts? I don't see how you can reach your conclusions from their statements, and I don't get the outrage. Both Buell and the AMA make it very clear that they are doing, and what they are doing is no different then what the other factory teams already do... Buell is just making it available to any privateer. | ||
| Xoptimizedrsx |
the way I see it. the Other factory teams want to supply a few hand feed guys with new stuff. this way they can slip in and hide things. as they do as in the past each get caught. (Cheating) not all but some. what Buell will do is take a factory1125r bike. build it to a race spec a 1125rr. no different than all the top guys bikes that are supplied. modded from the factory. (some dont have vins) these are already out there and you cant get your hands on it at all. the import factory teams dont sell the parts or the dealers to make the exact bikes. buell sells every part. the factory teams wont sell a race prepped bike. RTR " I feel its cause they dont want to find out there private guy actually isnt all that good" buell Just wants to race. it doesnt matter who is on the seat. the factory teams pick and choose who rides and races. buell lets anyone with the funds and a license to get into racing. the factory teams are mainly not willing to share the stuff and buell will. buell supports the privateer the factory teams care less about the little guy. the factory team guys are all about corporate crap. buell is over all down home people. who wants to race and win legally.then have a corporate side cause they have too."my opinion" when do you see sharing bike parts to others anywhere besides buell. thats proven many times over. we stick together. share parts make parts runs when someone else is down. thats what a buell guy does. factory teams. say geesh sux that happened and pretty much walk off. factor teams are all about the numbers. buell is numbers and a family (a brother hood). I stand by Buell. even buy race parts for a race bike i hope all I spend with buell goes to racing to kick the japs butt. remember the Britten. He went through the same crap.finally proved the point. it can be done. OUR TURN NOW>  | ||
| Bads1 |
Spike, Buell didn't state that they did or didn't start with a production bike to make a race intended bike either so your going in circles a bit. And of coarse you can scream about it all you want but it must be by the rules or it wouldn't of happened. You just don't agree is all. | ||
| Altima02 |
Anything wrong with this post: "No, you can not make a 1125RR streetlegal because it has been race prepped. Just the same that you can not make a Ducati 1098rF08 street legal, because it has been race prepped. Just like you can not make Mladin’s suzuki street legal because it has been race prepped. But they ALL are based on factory bikes that you can buy from a dealer. 1125R for example. Then someone takes this bike and race preps it, be it Ducati racing support, Rockstar Mikita, or Buell Factory Race division. No longer street legal, aftermarket parts, modified engines, etc. Buell sells 1125R’s to anyone. Buell Racing only sells the RR to a select group of racers specifically for this racing division. Just like Rockstar Mikita or any other sponsor and race team. They’re bikes aren’t available to anyone after they have been race prepped. The fact that Buell Racing sells these to a select few IS EXACTLY what makes these allowable. If they sold the RR through any dealer to anyone, not being streetlegal, then it would break the rules as it would be a different bike. But it is just a race prepped 1125R, except Buell Racing will sell it to select few specifically for this race. Sounds exactly like the same setup of other bikes. That is what makes the difference, it is similiar to a sponsored racing group. The end results is a bike that follows race specs. Just think of the last R as a sponsor logo like on the other bikes. It means its been prepped based on a streetlegal bike, but now is distinguished because it is race ready. Just like Mladin’s bike. His came off the show room and was then modified, I could buy an 1125R and then have it modified. I don’t buy the “Not available to the public argument” because could I buy the same bike as Mladin? Maybe, who knows. But it would take an awfully big check. And it wouldn’t be from a Suzuki dealer, but from the sponsored build team. With the Buell, I know that I could buy it from them, and I know the price. That makes it more readily available. And its not just from any dealer, but only through their Racing division. I just fail to see the “HUGE” difference in what comes down to, ‘who’ is doing the race prepping." | ||
| Spike |
Because that's the plain meaning of the terms "introduced . . . a race-use only". It's surface level exegesis. I don't know how you can spin this so hard and take yourself seriously. The rules say A is legal. Buell, by their own admission, "introduces" not-A. Only the Buell fans are trying to claim that Buell took an existing A and modified it to be not-A. | ||
| Rocketsprink |
who cares? What's done is done. Stop all the bitching already. | ||
| Davegess |
Court, Court, Court. I am disappointed in you. You want facts. Facts? What would we do with facts? We might actually know what was going on and write sensable things. What is the funin that?  | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Just like Mladin’s bike. His came off the show room and was then modified, I could buy an 1125R and then have it modified. I don’t buy the “Not available to the public argument” because could I buy the same bike as Mladin? Maybe, who knows. But it would take an awfully big check. And it wouldn’t be from a Suzuki dealer, but from the sponsored build team. With the Buell, I know that I could buy it from them, and I know the price. That makes it more readily available. And its not just from any dealer, but only through their Racing division. I just fail to see the “HUGE” difference in what comes down to, ‘who’ is doing the race prepping." Great point about the 1125RR being more available to any given racer with the bucks versus a guy who has not only get the race team together to build the darn thing but the blessing from the Japanese factory Gods to get the unobtainium parts! | ||
| Altima02 |
^Thats kinda the whole point, yet people are so upset about it. Honestly, it would be alot less uproar had DMG not pissed off so many people with they way they changed the racing series. I really think its their part that is creating more heat. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Really from a fans point of view, DMG has done plenty right this year. The racing has been closer (especially in DSB) that ever. I think they will be applauded in the end. | ||
| Oddball |
hmmm 1125r + factory race parts bought thru Henry = cool (street legal made into race) 1125rr - street parts but factory prepped with same above parts = uncool (race made, no street) Ok problem solved, 1125rr + box of street required parts and valid vin so it could be a legal street bike if un-prepped. There, now everyone has a pile of street parts not needed.  |
