| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
MotoGP is the premier series. WSBK is a very close 2nd and much better than "not a patch on" wrt MGP. I do grow weary of the mistaken perception that SBK machinery with twenty times showroom retail worth of unobtanium racing tech have anything but the most superficial resemblance to their showroom counterparts. I think MGP made a mistake going to 800 cc machines. | ||
| Jlnance |
I think MGP made a mistake going to 800 cc machines. I don't follow it close enough to have an opinion. I am curious as to why you think so. | ||
| Trojan |
I do grow weary of the mistaken perception that SBK machinery with twenty times showroom retail worth of unobtanium racing tech have anything but the most superficial resemblance to their showroom counterparts. +1 The only real similarity is the paint job and the name on the tank  I think MGP made a mistake going to 800 cc machines. The reason for changing was because Honda wanted to, simple as that. It was dressed up as a safety issue but that was blown out of the water as soon as they did the first test of the 800 bikes. Honda are the prime movers behind most MotoGp rule changes over recent years, from changing to 4 strokes initially to going to 800cc (because they thought it would favour their bike) and now of course getting rid of the 250 class in favour of Honda engined (surprise surprise) 600cc four strokes. The FIA are scared that Honda will take their toys away if they disagree, so they play ball regardless of any evidence to counter Honda's arguments. The 250 class is being phased out primarily because Honda don't want to build 2 strokes and never have. The major 250 class manufacturers (Aprilia & KTM) were not even given the same consultation as Honda about the class future, and so have both pulled out of the new class and from MotoGP completely other than 125 involvement. Before long it will be the Honda World Series  | ||
| Metalstorm |
This may be a bad analogy but I don't see Rossi going to WSB as a downgrade or a major to minor kind of thing. I see it as a wrestler dropping weight to wrestle in the weight division that currently offers the best challenge. Add Rossi to the mix with Spies, Biagi, Naga etc.. there will be exciting racing as everyone steps it up a notch. | ||
| Trojan |
Add Rossi to the mix with Spies, Biagi, Naga etc.. there will be exciting racing as everyone steps it up a notch. Spies is the only unknown quantity of those three. Rossi has beaten the other two already (Haga had a disastrous spell in MotoGP with Aprilia). To be honest, I think Rossi would clean up in WSB and I think he would only do it just to add another feather to his cap. | ||
| Amafan |
Trojan ,you should read up on your GP history ,because Superbike racers dominated the 500 class in the 80's ,and 90's . Dorna changed to 800's from 990's to give 250 riders a better chance to win the title since Rossi was the only former 250 champion to win a 500/MotoGP title since Freddy Spencer won both titles in 1985 . I prefer WSBK because a rider that is a normal size like Ben Spies can use his talent to win ,but in MotoGP if you are not under 150 lbs you do not have a chance . | ||
| Doerman |
This is just brilliant. Our Yamaha MotoGP riders does a day's work in the office. Very well done Yamaha! | ||
| Trojan |
Trojan ,you should read up on your GP history ,because Superbike racers dominated the 500 class in the 80's ,and 90's . Dorna changed to 800's from 990's to give 250 riders a better chance to win the title since Rossi was the only former 250 champion to win a 500/MotoGP title since Freddy Spencer won both titles in 1985 . I don't know what history you have been reading, but it ain't nothing to do with MotoGP that's for sure! The 500 class was gone for 4 years before the 800 rule was established. During the period between 2002 and 2006 only one ex-Superbike rider won a GP, and that was Troy Bayliss at the very last 990 GP. Most of the front running MotoGP riders of the 500cc era, 990cc era and 800cc era have made the progression up from the ranks of the 125 and 250 grids. It was the exceptions (mostly Americans but a few notable Australians too) who came up from Superbikes and importantly from Dirt Tracking, and from where they developed the rear wheel steering technique to deal with the lack of grip and vicious power bands of GP bikes at the end of the two stroke era. However most of the European riders still came up through the established GP classes even back then, and if you read through the GP entry lists of the 80's and 90's you'll see that they made up the majority of the grids even then. Remember the last GP champion of the 500cc era was a certain Valentino Rossi after all As tyre technology and electronics caught up the rear wheel steerers pretty much disappeared, leaving the high corner speed ex-250 guys still in the frame. The 800cc rule was brought in (at the behest and coercion of Honda) in a doomed attempt to slow the bikes down after the death of Dajiro Kato at Suzuka. There were a number of suggestions and possibilities put forward on just how to achieve better safety, most of which would actually have made more difference than the 800 rule ever did. Ironically Kato's accident was a pure fluke and nothing to do with power, engine capacity or corner speed. He was unlucky enough to have hit the wall through a gap in the air fence, so it could have happened to anyone in any race class. Honda were (and still are) the major force in GP racing, so although there were other more sensible options put forward it was the 800cc rule that was adopted by the FIA. Most of the engineers knew that corner speeds would increase and lap times would be just as quick. If anything they expected a lot more crashes and have been proved right. Honda had their own agenda, and it was of no little coincidence that they had lost their star rider and been beaten to the GP title by Yamaha the year previously. They assumed that a change in the rules would even things out (in their favour) and redress the advantage that Yamaha had established. As it turned out, Hayden won the title for Honda anyway that year simply because Rossi had a bad year. The change in capacity had absolutely nothing to do with the size of the riders, or of any attempt to get 250 riders back to the front of MotoGP (they wee already there) and if you think that MotoGP in the 990 era wasn't already dominated by ex-250 riders you need to do some homework. One last thing, Colin Edwards, Valentino Rossi and the upcoming Marco Simoncelli are hardly 'dwarfs' but are still competitive in GP racing, as Spies will be when he gets there regardless of his size. Talent is talent. I have been following GP racing for 40 years so history is a strong point  | ||
| Jaimec |
Ummmm... Nicky Hayden is a former Superbike Rider... as a matter of fact, he was the last Superbike rider to beat Mat Mladin for the title before a certain Ben Spies came along... (Message edited by jaimec on July 02, 2009) | ||
| Crusty |
Uh, just for consideration, some other superbike riders that I watched racing in the AMA were Freddy Spencer, Wayne Rainey, Kevin Schwantz, and Eddie Lawson. I think they had some fair results in GP as well. | ||
| Jaimec |
Trojan SPECIFICALLY said between 2002-2006. The championship in 2006 was won by a former Superbike rider. He may not have won that many races (two) but he was a consistent podium finisher. Consistency counts, especially when your primary opponent can't keep his bike on the track. Hey, he won even though his midget team mate punted him off the track! | ||
| Vagelis46 |
I wonder if a 500cc 2stroke engine can compete with a 800cc 4stroke. If motoGP is concerned about cutting costs and having more teams on the grid, why not bring the 500cc 2strokes back ?? I am sure some teams will get interested. Small manufacturers will be interested. BUELL ???GP fans will get very excited by that. GP teams spend millions of $$ to develop and tune 4stroke engines. 2strokes are much cheaper and easier to tune. I for sure am a 2stroke fan, I wish there are still 500cc 2stroke superlight replicas with modern chassis setup to buy. | ||
| Elfrippo |
Two-strokes are not interesting for the manufacturers anymore. They have no connection to the street bikes. The four-strokes make more sense, since the engine tech will eventually trickle down to the street bikes. | ||
| Trojan |
Two-strokes are not interesting for the manufacturers anymore. No, Two strokes are no longer interesting for the Japanese manufacturers any more. This is just another example of 'misinformation' spread by the big 4 factories that don't want to make 2 strokes any longer. KTM report their best ever sales for 2 stroke motorcycles last year, and Aprilia are still working on 'clean' 2 stroke technology with the mouthwatering prospect of an RS500 2 stroke road bike still on the cards. Other companies such as Orbital have already perfected 'clean' 2 stroke technology and are working with major manufacturers on future projects. If you dig enough you will find plenty of exciting new 2 stroke performance bike projects still going strong. Take a look at this brilliant X 500 http://www.jjsdesign.net/jj2sx4500/index.html or better still, drool over this 1100cc 2 stroke Kawasaki that you CAN actually buy http://www.twostrokeshop.com/ The 2 stroke is not dead yet By the way, when I referred to Superbike riders in GP's between 2002-2006 I was referring to WSB not domestic championships. if you dig far enough into rider histories you'll find that almost all started in some kind of domestic production series or other. US riders have no choice but to progress from Superbikes as you have no viable 250 class. I wasn't including any domestic series, but even if we did include them, the number of riders to have successfully made the switch (i.e. winning a race) to MotoGp in recent years is very very few. Since the introduction of the 800cc bikes only one ex-Superbike rider has won a GP, and that is Chris Vermuelen. | ||
| Blake |
Except for my chainsaw, the two stroke noise iritates me terribly. Two strokes are easier to tune for high performance racing? How so? Two stroke sport bikes more popular? Compared to four strokes? That would be very difficult to believe. | ||
| Rocketsprink |
I personally think their screwing up GP racing by getting away from the 2 strokes. 600's? Welcome to the beginning of the end of GP and welcome the World version of the AMA. (Message edited by rocketsprink on July 03, 2009) | ||
| Reepicheep |
I just sold my four stroke (KLR-250) to buy a two stroke (KDX-200) while I could. A direct injection two stroke seems attractive for a plug in hybrid application... | ||
| Jaimec |
I figure series like MotoGP (prototype racing) can be justified by the manufacturers as a development/laboratory where they can test new technologies in the harshest way possible before using them in a street motorcycle. Then, they can justify the expenditure. Right now, although I've been hearing about "clean two-strokes" for the past couple of DECADES, I haven't seen anything beyond lawn maintenance equipment or dirt bikes using two strokes. That being the case, developing four strokes in the MotoGP series makes perfect sense. We're even seeing the fruits of that on the street now in the YZF-R1 Superbike (and, to a lesser extent, the Ducati Desmosedici street bike, but that's a limited production exotic). I doubt we'll be seeing carbon-framed street bikes any time soon, but I'm glad to see the technology being applied. Now, if only they'd do away with carbon brakes in MotoGP... | ||
| Trojan |
Two strokes are easier to tune for high performance racing? How so?. Two strokes are much easier to tune than 4 strokes, and make almost twice the power per cc than their 4 stroke equivalent for less weight. Remember they are firing twice as often as the 4 stroke. Two strokes are also much simpler and easier to tune and work on than 4 strokes. At the moment the new Moto2 class bikes that are being tested (fitted with Tuned CBR600 engines) are still slower than than 250GP bikes they are replacing. By the time Honda release the 'offical' class engine for Moto2 they will probably be around the same in terms of lap times, but willstill be slower in the corners. This last generation of 250GP bikes really are the cutting edge of race technology right now, and are probably the purest form of motorcycle racer ever to have raced. It is a shame that they are to be replaced at all really. Two stroke sport bikes more popular? Compared to four strokes? That would be very difficult to believe There are many more 2 stroke motorcycles in the world than 4 strokes, even now. Most are admittedly small capacity commuter bikes but there are many millions of them out there. If you look closely at teh details of the 1100 Kawasaki conversion that TSS are producing you'll see that large capacity two strokes make a huge amount of sense, less weight and much more power than the equivalent size diesel, sorry 4 stroke. | ||
| Littlefield |
2 strokes are still fairly popular on outboard motors. Fuel economy matters a little on these and the new ones have direct fuel injection to decrease fuel usage. The lubricant must still go through the crankcase. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
"I figure series like MotoGP (prototype racing) can be justified by the manufacturers as a development/laboratory where they can test new technologies in the harshest way possible before using them in a street motorcycle. Then, they can justify the expenditure. " I agree 100%. But engine technology development is NOT more important than : 1. Brakes development 2. Suspension development. Telescopic forks are being used for 100 years. Lets hope someone continues Brittens work on alternative fronts in motoGP. 3. Chassis development. Who would imagine a tank in frame chassis (Buell) 20 years ago ?? Racing has nothing to do with noise or emission limits. Do you think that a 4stroke GP machine is "legal" for emissions ?? Is our H-D engine with "free flow" exhausts & tuning, legal for noise and emissions ?? Show me a biker that cares for legal noise or legal emissions for his race replica. 2stroke engines are a pleasure to ride, and they do not need a slipper clutch. I think that with 2strokes in motoGP, Aprilia, KTM, Kenny Roberts, would take part. They definately have chassis technology, but to develope an engine would be catastrophic. Also maybe Kawa would not have been forced to quit, and Suzuki would have been more competitive. "....and Aprilia are still working on 'clean' 2 stroke technology with the mouthwatering prospect of an RS500 2 stroke road bike still on the cards." Really ?? Great news !!! When will we buy one ??? I could upgrade my RS250? | ||
| Jaimec |
Unfortunately, carbon brakes will NEVER have a use on the street unless every municipality on the planet decides to simply do away with speed limits altogether and let "Darwin" remove the bad drivers/riders from the roads. Under normal use, a carbon brake will never get hot enough to be effective. Better to develop brakes that have a useful, real world application. It boggles the mind that with all of the efforts made towards cost-cutting, Dorna left this one piece of useless, EXPENSIVE technology in the mix. Instead, they ban ceramic brakes that NOBODY in the two-wheeled world uses. Gotta wonder exactly how much ethylene glycol they really are mixing in the wine there in Italy... | ||
| Jaimec |
Oh, one more thing Vagelis: I agree with you regarding front suspension. That's why I was appalled when BMW, a pioneer of alternative front-ends on the street, elected to use telescopic forks on their Superbike! WTF?? | ||
| Trojan |
Under normal use, a carbon brake will never get hot enough to be effective. Better to develop brakes that have a useful, real world application. carbon composite brakes are already available for street use. Although expensive they offer real improvements in terms of weight and reduced fade due to heat. In fact the hotter they get the better they work Fittings are already available for Buell models if you have deep enough pockets to afford them  The price......Euro 2100 before tax for the road version or Euro 2850 for the race version complete with extra carbon air scoops Before you ask, the reason youdon't see carbon brakes in race series other than MotoGp is that most specifically ban them due to cost implications. Vagelis...If you want an Aprilia RS500 NOW look here http://www.twostrokeshop.com/Aprilia_RS500_2008.htm (Message edited by trojan on July 03, 2009) | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Thanks Trojan. I just hope that a major manufacturer builds one ! Come on Aprilia ! "2 strokes are still fairly popular on outboard motors. Fuel economy matters a little on these and the new ones have direct fuel injection to decrease fuel usage. The lubricant must still go through the crankcase." If it is used for boats, it must be able to be used for bikes. I think HONDA was one of the first manufacturer to make a 4stroke outboard boat engine, while American manufacturers were and are still using 2stroke, like MARINER. Damn Honda !! | ||
| Blake |
Matt, Did you answer the question? "Two strokes are easier to tune for high performance racing? How so?." Why would a two stroke be easier to tune than a four stroke? My experience is the opposite. If the height of technology is to rule, then let the four strokes employ turbos and superchargers. | ||
| Trojan |
Why would a two stroke be easier to tune than a four stroke? 1. Because you have no valve train that saps power and restricts revs. 2. the engine fires twice as often as a 4 stroke, so is actually more mechanically efficient. 3. 2 stroke engines can be far lighter than the equivalent size 4 stroke. 4. Take a look at series that run 'equivalency' rules for 2 & 4 stroke competitors. 4 strokes are normally twice the capacity in order to make the same bhp. When was the last time you saw a 60bhp 4 stroke 250? 5. Modern direct injection 2 strokes dispel the myth that 2 stroke engines have to be fuel inefficient. They also run cooler than 4 stroke motors. These are just a few reasons why tuning 2 strokes will pretty much always give betetr results than tuning the same size 4 stroke motor. If MotoGP hadn't changed to 990cc but just stuck to the 500cc limit for 4 strokes then GP speeds would have been slashed. The last time a 4 stroke 500cc bike was competitive in GP racing was in the early 1970's (MV Agusta ) As for using outboard motor engines, there was a lot of success int eh 70's and 80-'s for both solo and sidecar competitors using teh Koenig flat 4 3 stroke boat engine. Kim Newton even got runner up in the 500GP championship behind Agostini riding a home brewed Koenig engined bike I believe. Then there is the mouthwatering proposition of using large capacity Polaris two stroke engine from the snowmobiles. Have you seen the Tu-Laris project built by Dr. Rob Tuluie (currently head of technology at Renoult F1)? Thi suses a 700cc Polaris motor making 183bhp at 8700rpm, and weighing just 273lbs!  | ||
| Blake |
I don't see that any of the reasons you site relate to ease of tuning. I know that two strokes are absolutely not "inherently more efficient." The opposite is true. I know that the RS250 is a notoriously difficult bike to get tuned for racing. | ||
| Trojan |
I know that two strokes are absolutely not "inherently more efficient." The opposite is true. A two stroke engine will make more bhp than the same size 4 stroke engine, which means that you are starting at a higher level even before you begin any tuning. I'm not saying that tuning 2 strokes is easy, but it is less complicated than a 4 stroke as there are far fewer moving parts to think about, and therefore easier. The RS250 is already very highly tuned, so getting the last 10% out of it is going to be difficult (but still possible). These little bikes are still racing in the UK club racing scene against 400cc 4 strokes and doing very well even with a 150cc disadvantage, so they must have something going for them. I used to race 2 stroke Karts many years ago, and everyone had their own little secrets and methods of getting the last few ounces of power out of their motor with little more than a file and some abrasive paper. To get the same improvements from a 4 stroke takes a lot more effort/time/money. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Stoner and Lorenzo will race injured ?? Lets hope they do not do more damage to themselves and have a good result. Lorenzo looks even worse than Stoner. Rossi will have an easy race... The problem is that Stoner and Lorenzo do not only have to race against Rossi on the track, but also against Rossi's reputation of "beeing unbeatable and always beat you at the last lap/turn". I do not get Lorenzo. He was #1 and still highsided when he tried to improve his lap time, because he thought that Rossi who was #3, will do a "magic" and beat his lap time. Last year when Lorenzo tried to race while injured he nearly destroyed himself. He is brave but I hope he is wiser this time. Rossi seems to have this "magic" ability-instinct to push just as hard as not to crash, great self preservation. He had 0 injuries his whole carreer ! He is phenomenal ! |
