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Firstbuell
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 17, 2009 - 05:37 pm: | 
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here's the most famous Mike The Bike foto -
look at that narrow 3.0x18" tire ! |
Fast1075
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 09:52 am: |
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Curt...the film I saw was back in '73? I believe...we saw it as a diversion at a lunch break at the training center.
What was cool was the RC engine that was disassembled and on display in a glass case... |
Gregtonn
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 12:59 pm: |
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I watched that bike (the 250cc six) turn a few laps at Laguna Seca.
The most noticeable thing about it was that it was impossibly LOUD, next was the incredible RPMs.
G |
Firstbuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 01:15 pm: |
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Fast,
Google the Honda RC-series 250- & 350-sixes
the variety of bitsa fotos will bring a big smile to yer face......
the 50cc-twin/125cc-five metal pieces,
all the moreso! |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 06:33 pm: |
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How is 525cc and 20 to 40 horsepower not an advantage?
I can see both sides of this. On one hand you have the Japanese manufactures who have spent decades of time and millions of dollars refining the IL4 motor and the rest of the bike. It seems unfair that their reward for pushing the technology is that everyone else gets to up their displacement limits to remain competitive.
On the other hand, it's not supposed to be about the bike, it's supposed to be about the rider. No one wants to watch a race where the outcome is determined by who spent the most money. From that perspective, the 1125 is a good fit in this class.
I think part of the problem is that while we say "it's the rider, not the bike," we don't really mean it. If we did, why would we even care if there were Buells in the race? Isn't it to prove that they are as good as or better than the IL4s? If people really thought it was all about the rider, manufactures wouldn't pour money into honing their racing bikes.
I'm curious. Given that 4 cylinders is going to work better than 2, how much additional displacement do you think a twin should get over a 4 cyl bike?
I'm beginning to see the appeal of the horsepower limited series like CDN Superbike. It at least makes it easy to agree on what is "fair." But consider a series like that, where the Buells started winning because they handled well. No one here would like it if they started having to carry extra weight to penalize them because they were designed well. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 08:55 pm: |
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Jimi,
Good to see you by the way. Reportedly, all the manufacturers had a lot of input as to what they'd like to field in the class. The 1098R (a ~1200cc bike) is the Ducati racing version of for their 1098 line. What I meant was that if they wanted to race the standard 1098 (not "S", not "R") version, I'd be all for it, but I don't see Duc wanting to do so when they can be just as if not more competitive with their 848R.
If Buell had an 825RR, they'd likely be doing the same. |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 11:28 pm: |
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In auto racing there are product stretch classes and there are rider/team classes. The rider/team classes survive economic turmoil better and bring in big sponsorship dollars. The new AMA is finaslly bringing a rider/team class to motorcycle racing. Yippee! I wish this had happened when I was racing! |
Gregtonn
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 11:34 pm: |
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"If Buell had an 825RR, they'd likely be doing the same."
Blake has a good point and I think he is correct.
I would like to bring up another. If Buell did make an 825RR for the street,
and it made 5 to 10 more HP than the 1125R, how many here would buy the 825RR instead of the 1125R?
An 825RR would, of necessity, have to be a peaky, twitchy, Race Rack in order to compete on the track.
As a realist I would prefer the street manners of the 1125R.
Marketing street bikes designed for the street makes more sense than marketing race bikes with lights.
G |
Elvis
| | Posted on Thursday, March 19, 2009 - 08:59 am: |
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I'd be all over an 825RR. What I'd REALLY like to see is purpose built 825RR (and 825R) with a smaller, lighter engine on a smaller, lighter chasis, but Buell clearly doesn't have the production volume to justify anything like that soon.
When Buell released the 1125R, they clearly said they weren't shooting for any racing class. At the time, things were in much more flux than they currently are. As I remember, WSBK (with the AMA following their lead) only allowed 1200cc bikes (just before, just after?) the 1125R was unveiled. So through most of the 1125R development, Buell couldn't have known what displacements would have been accepted at the top levels. They had to be considering the possibility that they would need to either decrease displacement to 1000 cc or increase to 1200 cc to compete at the top levels.
Buell won't be racing 1125cc bikes against 600 cc competition forever. That has to be considered a given. But AMA Sportbike provides them with a great opportunity to develop riders, develop teams, develop suspensions, develop brakes, get sponsors, see how the chasis actually performs under real racing conditions etc. etc. etc.
. . . you know, that 95% of racing other than the engine.
If Buell knew for certain that there would be major racing classes for 1200 cc bikes and 850 cc bikes, I believe they would be working toward those two engine displacements.
It seems that (hopefully) 1200 cc has become something of a standard, so hopefully they are looking toward that displacement in their future planning.
850 is a little more shaky, and that's why I'd like to see the AMA and FIM start doing some long term planning with 850 cc as something of a standard for twins.
If Buell KNEW that 5 years from now there would be major racing classes for 1200 and 850 cc displacements, I have no doubt they'd be working on those engines, but for now things are a little uncertain.
(Message edited by elvis on March 19, 2009) |
Jimidan
| | Posted on Thursday, March 19, 2009 - 12:47 pm: |
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Jimi,
Good to see you by the way. Reportedly, all the manufacturers had a lot of input as to what they'd like to field in the class. The 1098R (a ~1200cc bike) is the Ducati racing version of for their 1098 line. What I meant was that if they wanted to race the standard 1098 (not "S", not "R") version, I'd be all for it, but I don't see Duc wanting to do so when they can be just as if not more competitive with their 848R.
If Buell had an 825RR, they'd likely be doing the same.
Thanks Blake, it is good to be back after a short break. If Ducati wanted to race its 848R because they thought it would be more competitive, the strategy seems flawed...since they finished out of the top 25. That logic seems to be counter to the last AMA Superbike team's view, since they were complaining about having to pump up their engines so much that it became a bomb.
I don't know what the problem was in the 200...I will check out some of the Duc forums and get back to you. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Thursday, March 19, 2009 - 12:56 pm: |
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I'm in violent agreement with everyone here... but I'm not sure an 825cc Helicon ***would*** be much lighter then an 1125.
So, as a street consumer, I would say the rules should be changed to allow fewer modifications from stock, and to allow more displacement as a result.
Think of the GSXR-750... arguably the best street sport inline four ever built, but it has flailed because it does not fit nicely into established Japan Inc. class structures. |
Elvis
| | Posted on Thursday, March 19, 2009 - 01:39 pm: |
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I'm in violent agreement with everyone here... but I'm not sure an 825cc Helicon ***would*** be much lighter then an 1125.
Short-term, I'd imagine something very similar to the Ducati 848, so, sure, that would be a bike that is the same size as an 1125R, but it would be perceived as more "fair" in competition with the 600's (or Ducati 848's).
I'm in full, 100% support of Buell's racing efforts, but even I can see that it's a little strange to have Shawn Higbee racing an 1125R in Superbike and, basically, the same bike in Sportbike.
Eventually, as the 1125R is developed and refined for racing it will begin to blow-away the lower displacement competition and then they will either get hit with restrictions imposed by the AMA (that won't be clear to the general public and leave uneducated fans wondering why an 1125 cc bike is having trouble with 600 cc competition). Ideally, at that point, I'd like to see Buell have an 850 cc bike to offer rather than a restricted 1125.
Then, once they and Ducati have (hopefully) established some sort of precedent for racing 850 twins, I believe a clean sheet design could be smaller and lighter.
Imagine Rotax basically scaling down the current engine. They should be able to produce an 850 cc engine and transmission that is roughly 25% smaller dimensionally and 25% lighter than the current engine.
A 25% smaller and 25% ligher engine would allow a smaller and lighter frame. A smaller and lighter frame mated to a less powerful engine would allow a smaller and lighter swing-arm. A smaller engine would require less fuel. A smaller engine could use a smaller cooling system etc. etc. etc.
And if it was truly a clean-sheet design, they wouldn't just be limited to a smaller V-Twin. They might consider a parallel twin or other configuration and a different configuration might allow additional reduction in size.
One thing that got me excited about the MV Augusta deal is that if Buell could share an engine development program like that with Cagiva, it would make a clean-sheet engine such as that more affordable.
But that's all getting way ahead of anything that's realistic now. I'm a fan of small, light, great-handling bikes, so if I had a magic wand or a seat on the Buell board, that's a direction I'd be moving regarding future product development. |
Buell2001b
| | Posted on Thursday, March 19, 2009 - 02:07 pm: |
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how come the 1198 has not entered AMA. its under 1200 and the HP is lower then the 1098 by far. would't the 1198 be a better rival to the 1125r and aprilla then the 848? |
Elvis
| | Posted on Thursday, March 19, 2009 - 02:24 pm: |
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The 1198 isn't legal for Sportbike and the riders riding Superbike are using the 1098R.
I think the 848 should match up very nicely against the 1125R and Aprilia (it's a little down on power, but Ducati has the experience to bring that up with race tuning and the chasis is top class), but it seems that no big-name Ducati riders or teams have decided to run the 848.
A couple good riders on 848's and a couple good riders on BMW HP2's and a couple good riders on KTM's could make this a very interesting series.
Hopefully some interest will build as the season progresses and maybe then we'll see some broader participation. |
46champ
| | Posted on Thursday, March 19, 2009 - 06:15 pm: |
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Isn't a 1098R actually 1198cc |
Sd26
| | Posted on Thursday, March 19, 2009 - 06:58 pm: |
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Yeah, the 1098R is 1198cc's. |
Duggram
| | Posted on Thursday, March 19, 2009 - 07:49 pm: |
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A 3mm over bore on the 1125 gives 1195cc's. Interesting thought? |
Oddball
| | Posted on Friday, March 20, 2009 - 12:32 am: |
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I wonder if in all the net speculation on future Cagiva use of a Helicon there could be a grain of truth? What if the dreamed of 850cc version came to market not under the Buell banner but as a Cagiva. Now that they are under the Moco it would give them a star to grow their brand and give HD a foothold in the 'small' displacement market. Buell at that point would step up to take on the big boys and their big toys while Cagiva would stay on the junior varsity field. |
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