| Author | Message | ||
     Redbuelljunkie |
AMA Pro Racing Tire Test Daytona International Speedway Daytona Beach, Florida December 5, 2008 Daytona SportBike Provisional Test Times, Night Session (all on Dunlop tires, as supplied by AMA Pro Racing and teams): 1. Ben Bostrom (Yam YZF-R6), 1:50.998 2. Martin Cardenas (Suz GSX-R600), 1:51.256 3. Jake Zemke (Hon CBR600RR), 1:51.340 4. Cory West (Suz GSX-R600), 1:51.368 5. Josh Hayes (Yam YZF-R6), 1:52.140 6. Blake Young (Suz GSX-R600), 1:52.358 7. Josh Herrin (Yam YZF-R6), 1:52.38 8. Michael Barnes (Buell 1125R), 1:52.587 9. Dane Westby (Yam YZF-R6), 1:52.653 10. Tommy Aquino (Yam YZF-R6), 1:52.72 11. Shawn Higbee (Buell 1125R), 1:53.807 12. Chris Peris (Hon CBR600RR), 1:54.583 13. Jeremy McWilliams (Buell 1125R), 1:55.34 I wouldn't get worried unless this becomes the race results... then there would need to be some soul-searching. | ||
| Eboos |
It's day one, and all of the Buell riders are on new tires. No need to worry just yet. | ||
| Sd26 |
Agreed. Rain today. No need to throw away a development bike on day one. | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
It's not so much the performance that's the concern- it's the perception. | ||
| Rocketsprink |
I think the XBRR failure, yes, failure, should have taught the Buell faithful not to expect to much right out of the box. I certainly don't. | ||
| 4cammer |
"It's not so much the performance that's the concern- it's the perception." Like I tell my boy - don't worry what the other kids say, they probably still wet the bed. | ||
| Eboos |
I wrote about this on another forum. The XBRR, while not successful in AMA competition, was very successful in other organizations. It was also a great test platform for many of the components that are now on the 1125R. | ||
| Pioggia_di_parata |
Considering that it was designed specifically for the AMA Formula Xtreme class and was bragged up in Buell press releases as supposedly being competitive in that class, its results in that class are most relevant and can be categorically described as "failure". Whether or not some club racer was able to win a championship on it in some dubious twins class is hardly an argument against that. And outside of the echo chamber of hardcore Buell fans, the XBRR is seen as not only a failure but as a joke. But back to the topic of this thread. A modern water-cooled 4-valve twin with displacement over a liter belongs in a superbike class, based purely on the engineering-based rules used all over the world with the exception of the new AMA/DMG circus. That's where Ducati, Aprilia, Honda (RC51), Suzuki (TL1000R), and Harley (VR1000) all campaign(ed) their similarly-designed twins. The success of these efforts varied from none (Suzuki) to a little (Harley) to a lot (race wins for Aprilia & championships for Ducati & Honda), but that's what racing is about: pitting yourself against the competition within a common set of rules to see who comes out on top. The fact that DMG allows the 1125R to race against 600's while making all other similarly engineered twins race against liter bikes is a clear indication of the incredibly low expectations of Buell's ability to compete. It is like taking the worst team in the NFL and letting them play against college teams in an attempt to let them get some wins. But these lap times from the Daytona test indicate that even with that incredibly lopsided field Buell is still questionable. I really expected the 1125R to beat the crap out of the 600's (we keep hearing about how successful it is in Canada against real superbikes, after all), but it looks like that ain't happening. So what's up for 2010 if the 1125R goes winless in the Daytona Sportbike class in 2009? Push it down to the Red Bull Rookies Cup and have veterans Higbee & Barnes & McWilliams bash fairings with 15 year olds on 125's?  (Message edited by Pioggia_di_parata on December 06, 2008) | ||
| Eboos |
It's day one, and all of the Buell riders are on new tires. No need to worry just yet. | ||
| Eboos |
Your focusing on the wrong thing when it comes to allowing the 1125R to compete against the 600s. First, the HP2 and the RSV1000 are also allowed to race, and they are more purpose built bikes then the 1125R. The 1125R competed quite well against these bikes in Moto ST. Second, it is to encourage manufactures to compete and fill the classes. Watching 4 manufactures for years was not much fun. Finally, these bikes will also compete in American Superbike. Their performance in Daytona Sportbike and Supersport will be a reflection more on the riders and the teams, not the bike. | ||
| Jetrider802 |
the superbike class is running a shorter course (10sec.) than the Daytona sportbike class the sportbike class is using both sided if the banking Very fun. vs the Superbikes using just turns 3 and 4 of nascar ps 1125r against 600 is ridiculus. but if i can run the class in march i'll take a shot at the 200 | ||
| Elvis |
Ignore the troll. McWilliams was less than 4 seconds behind Pegram's 1098R in today's practice. Not competitive . . . yet, but a lot closer than a piece of crap Buell should be to a $40,000 race designed bike with 1200 cc's, traction control, top shelf suspension etc. etc. etc. that has been tested and refined at the highest levels. | ||
| Pioggia_di_parata |
Ah, the cold comfort of lowered expectations. At least it's a lot more realistic than the pie in the sky "we can compete with the best from Japan & Italy" attitude that used to surround Buell. It's healthier to accept the reality of the situation. Probably saves on ulcer and blood pressure meds. I suppose if any of the Buells actually finish the 200 this year it will be considered a rousing success amongst the true believers, especially after the ignominious Daytona debut of the XBRR. Buell racing truly is "special".  | ||
| Doerman |
Buell racing truly is "special". As a fan of Buell racing I will take that as a compliment. Thanks! | ||
| Court |
>>>As a fan of Buell racing I will take that as a compliment. Thanks! Add me to that list. You may recall, in the week following the XBRR Daytona debut, I said "Buell will be one of the top names in racing in 5 years". I stand by that and am very proud of what is being done. | ||
| Rocketsprink |
Like I said above. I, personally think the XBRR didn't pan out as hoped. I consider it a failure in what was expected of the bike. There are plenty more purpose built race bikes that don't pan out. Look at Kawasaki in MotoGP. The XBRR failed at what I believe was too high of an expectation of the bike. It was never really given a chance to be developed. My point is give Richie Morris and his team some time to get things sorted out. Some expect too much too soon. Some are just assholes and like the idea of bashing Buell at every chance. Must be a professional racer, I guess. (Message edited by rocketsprink on December 06, 2008) (Message edited by rocketsprink on December 06, 2008) | ||
| Pioggia_di_parata |
I originally wrote that message with the additional phrase "in the 'ed' sense of the word", but deleted it because I figured it would be clear from the context, the quotes around "special", and the drooler. I guess I underestimated the "specialness" around here.
Ok, 3 years down and 2 to go. By what metric are we to define "one of the top names in racing"?
You're proud that Buell is being allowed to run a modern high tech literbike in a middleweight class because the rule makers presumed it would be trounced in the class in which it clearly should compete? Proud? If you had an 18 year old son who won a footrace against 12 year olds would you also beam with pride at the achievement? (Of course that analogy only holds if Buell actually wins in Daytona Sportbike.) Lowered expectations indeed. | ||
| Elvis |
Racing . . . even unsuccessfully . . . is INFINITELEY more of an accomplishment than bad mouthing the efforts of others on an internet forum. I think most of us around here are perceptive enough to recognize a real loser when we see one. | ||
| Rocketsprink |
agreed | ||
| Reepicheep |
Rome huh? I smell a troll. | ||
| Eboos |
 Aprilia, now there's a manufacturer that knows how to compete on the top level. The Cube was a pretty successful bike, yes? Ducati, if we can't make the rules favorable to us, we aren't going to play. BMW, let's make a abandon all of our "superior" technology and design and just build the same thing as everyone else to compete. KTM, lets dominate a catagory that no one else has been developing in the past 6 years. It's easy to avoid failure by not even trying. Buell deserves much more credit. | ||
| Doerman |
Pioggio di parata is Italian for "Rain on the parade" So I think we're dealing with somebody funning with us. | ||
| Blublak |
Hmmm.. Just thinking out loud here.. for the benefit of the 'Rain on the Parade' .. A stock 1125R has roughly the same power output as a modern 4 cyl 600cc bike. Face it, perhaps the people making the rules trying for actual close racing. Compared to a full on 'factory' 600 racer, it's underpowered and overweight. The Buell, unlike some of the machinery it's being compared too, was not designed as a race machine and then massaged into a street bike. The engine wasn't created with racing as it's primary function. I've ridden a privateer 600RR and it was a beast once it got into it's power band. It would suck as a street machine. If the rain parade had a true understanding of what goes into a race bike and the kind of money, time and effort into building a pro level bike, not to mention the incredible level of skill involved in being a successful rider at that level. I think he'd temper his comments somewhat with some that better understanding. Instead, he parrots those that either don't know or would prefer to generi il dissenso so as to advance whatever agenda they have. I think, if everyone will just wait and see, the racing may even be pretty good. I for one hope it's VERY good and we can all enjoy more then a one make race from now on. | ||
| Doerman |
Dare I say? Linguistically and style wise, this reminds me of Rocketman. If it is, welcome back, Rocket! | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Are there any pictures of the 1125Rs from this test ??? It would be nice to see how these bikes look like. | ||
| Eboos |
http://www.roadracingworld.com/enlarge/?section=ne ws&image=2459 Here's a picture. | ||
| Elvis |
From SuperbikePlanet:      | ||
| Court |
>>>>Lowered expectations indeed. Absolutely incorrect. I have nothing but the highest expectations for Buell racing and continue to be amazed and thrilled to watch a company less than 1,000,000th the size of the ones it is competing with leverage a budget that wouldn't pay for a pricey car and do as well as they are. I was involved in Buell in the days when the Bank of Mukwonago declined a $3,000 business loan and laughed at Erik Buell as they sent him away. I stand by my prediction and what you may not understand is that, at least to me, it is the excitement and challenge of the quest coupled with the people I meet on the journey. It sounds as though your life and attitudes are very negative. I've always led an exciting, if unpredictable, life and enjoy, in my brief time on this planet, spending time being amazed. I don't need to change anyone, but have no use, in my life for dull days, negative attitudes or mediocrity. I'm really excited about Buell racing. Court | ||
| Bigdaddy |
Great points by most everyone. Pioggia_di_parata you need to change your profile -- at least indicate the correct continent of your current domicile. I don't actually know anyone from the Redding area so it's possible that locally it's referred to as Rome -- who knew. Oh, yea, quit being such a dick. | ||
| Rubberdown |
I think Pioggia raises some valid points. Buell has a state of the art, liquid cooled, large displacement high performance engine and a modern innovative chassis. I would like to see it compete with other liter bikes. The XBRR was a fun and exciting effort, even if it failed. I can't get excited about the prospect of the 1125 running with the middleweights (and I race that class). Jump in the big classes, take some licks, and improve or win from the start. I don't care, I would still cheer for Buell. I just don't relish the prospect of cheering the Buell Liter class modern superbike as it challenges a mostly 600cc class. |
