| Author | Message | ||
     Alessio66xb12r |
sunday 15 Misano 3rd round of Italian Supertwins This is a report that i'll try to resume from Freespirits team: Spiller has the 8th "time" during saturday's sessions , starts in 2nd row and 8th terminates under the flag , still 8th in the general Classify after 3 rounds....with his 1125 , and still not completely ok from his last crash in Magione. important to note , H.D. Italy was there with another 1125 and the racer Pedersoli was fighting for the FIRST place when he crashed only few hundreds meters from the " finish". anyway he was the best lap-time on saturday sessions ...pole position 1st row. bye Alessio   | ||
| Alessio66xb12r |
others aspects of the show   | ||
| Dragstang |
thanks for the pics alessio. how is your 88 xb trackbike doing? | ||
| Alessio66xb12r |
....doing fine and fast... after 3 practice sessions my xb is a LITTLE BEAT faster than the best (the only) xb 88" i saw in that week-end. bye Alessio | ||
| Vagelis46 |
No ZTL2 for this bike ? | ||
| Trojan |
No ZTL2 for this bike ? not since brake failure at the very first race of the year. Free Spirits and pretty much every European race team with the 1125R have all suffered in this respect, and most (with the possible exception of the French teams) have since changed 'traditional' twin discs. | ||
| Anonymous |
Actually, Trojan is wrong, the 1125R that set the pole and was battling for the lead had the ZTL2 system. Bike number 25, but I have no way of posting photos here. Heck, I'm not even supposed to be posting! So at this race the ZTL2 bike was definitely turning better lap times than the modifed bike with dual discs. Yes, the pole bike was a completely stock bike left over from the press launch. And the German Ilmberger team had brake problems with their aftermarket dual system that took them out of contention at the race last week. Disappointing because they were fourth fastest in practice. So you can change them or not depending on what you want to spend, but the ZTL2 system absolutely works. | ||
| Angelo |
Sorry but the raider that was fighting for the first position that crashed this week end was a world sbk rider a few year ago....does this mean something to you? The same rider also crashed in the last week end because the bike didnt stop when he hit the brakes before a curve.One disk is fine to go to the pub or for a sunday ride with friends but if you wanna compete and be safe dual is the only solution... Sorry if i was rude but ztl is only an interesting theory but it is not supported by facts. Regards Angelo K.T. | ||
| Anonymous |
BS, Angelo. How about 3rd with a ZTL2 equipped 1125R in Canadian Superbike against IL-4's, ahead of all GSXR-1000s? How about winning the French ProTwins national championship? How about winning in MotoST Endurance racing over Ducati, Aprilia and KTM using ZTL2? ZTL is absolutely proven. People crash with overloading brakes on all types of race bikes. It's easy to blame it on us because we're different, but it isn't based on facts. Yes you aree rude, and lacking knowledge. Go back to where you work at Brembo. We're not buying. | ||
| Trojan |
Actually, Trojan is wrong, the 1125R that set the pole and was battling for the lead had the ZTL2 system. Until they had brake problems that is..... I have no axe to grind here, but Ilmberger/Buell Bonn, Buell Hannover & Free Spirits are all very experienced race teams and excellent engineers. They have run the 1125R with the ZTL brake and have ALL had brake fade problems to an alarming degree in exactly the same way that we and others suffered with the XB12 ZTL1. In some cases these failures have resulted in crashes and injuries, so I for one do not blame them for fitting brakes that they and their riders feel confident in using at full speed. Some have griited their teeth and carried on with the stock brake, and have ended up chaging 5 front rotors and even more pads in the space of one endurance race. After that they swapped the complete front brake system to Beringer twin discs/calipers and have had no more problems since. Having run a race team with both systems I know for sure which worked best for us and it wasn't ZTL shaped. To be frank, I am not going to get dragged into another 'my brake is better than yours' argument because I can't be bothered, but the bottom line is this. Buell is the ONLY motorcycle manufacturer that espouses the rim brake concept. Others looked at it and tried it in the late 90's and dismissed it back then as below par and not as good as current solutions. Nobody else even looks like trying anything similar because it offers no significant benefits over current state of the art 'traditional' brake systems. Buell can huff and puff all they like and give us odd examples of when Buells fitted with this brake happen to beat other bikes, but it is the simple truth that other bikes with 'old fashioned' twin discs beat buells more often than the other way around. So what? (Message edited by trojan on June 30, 2008) | ||
| Alessio66xb12r |
just to be correct... and to say what really happened... the " brake line " problems FREESPIRITS Team suffered at Magione was on the double Brembo brakes you can see in the pics. Pedersoli had the rear wheel completely blocked for 50 and more meters when he lost the control of the bike(carro's turn ) in a first time the team said a " mechanic failure blocked the wheel..." . important to note : buell 1125's obtains a special variation on the rule book because of their 4-valves and displacement , in italian supertwins air cooled 2-valves free displacement and 4-valves water cooled maximum 750 cc . a 1125 competing with 1000 cc or 1200 cc ducs air cooled 2-valves or 88" xbs do you think is it equal ??? there were rumors on this question at the end of the last race in Misano. i tested both single buell ZTL rotor with a lots of different pads and a double set of Brembo brakes on my bike ...i prefer the "double" solution it brakes more with less stress (my opinion). bye Alessio | ||
| Alessio66xb12r |
...if Angelo lacks in knowledge...} i'm not sure .(i don't think so..) maybe somebody else lacks in self-control. {we're not buying}{ ...i'm happy to buy BREMBO ....so speak for your money i'm able to speak personally for mine. | ||
| Angelo |
Grazie Alessio, I dont work fork for brembo and i have a gsxr complete front end with dual nissin on my bike.Almost No fading problem on the track and nice stoppies in front of the pub.I personally experienced the felling of an overheated and deformed ztl during a track session and believe me its not funny. | ||
| Blake |
Answers please? | ||
| Blake |
That ought to put a damper on the ZTL-II naysaying, eh Matt? Thanks for keeping things honest here Allesio and thanks for posting the news about Buells racing in Italia. | ||
| M1combat |
I'm sure glad Matt sells dual disc setups for the Buells... So yeah Matt... How does a ZTL win an endurance race or two against conventional brakes? "Sorry if i was rude but ztl is only an interesting theory but it is not supported by facts. " So you've done the math then? I only ask because you can't really argue with racetrack performance (even WITH math... but I figured I'd ask...). On the subject of people trying ZTL before... Uhhh, not so much. Not one company in the history of humanity has ever tried a ZTL setup before Buell. I'm sorry for those who aren't intelligent enough to see and understand the differences but they are there and the ZTL is indeed better than other perimeter mounted brake setups that HAVE been tried before. It seems to have proven itself on the racetrack and on the street as a perfectly acceptable method to stop a motorcycle. All this coming from someone who HAS faded a ZTL brake system. It was MY fault. Problem solved the very next day. (Message edited by m1combat on July 02, 2008) | ||
| Trojan |
I'm sure glad Matt sells dual disc setups for the Buells... So yeah Matt... How does a ZTL win an endurance race or two against conventional brakes? Actually, if you look at my web site you'll see that I do not sell dual disc setups for Buells of any description. When we raced we had to use the front end from a Yamaha R1 complete with forks & wheel. I know other people that have used GSXR, ZX6 or Ohlins front ends to do the same job with equal success. I had to get a set of one-off triple trees made for it, and have never offered those for sale either. I have nothing to gain commercially by standing up for what I and many others beleive is a better system, and I certainly won't believe that the ZTL is better just because the factory say so (who have a huge commercial interest in ZTL) despite plenty of evidence to the contrary. Doesn't the fact that not one single factory other than Buell believe it offers any advantage in braking performance say anything? If Honda or Yamaha thought it had even a slight advantage they would be using a version of it I can assure you, patent or no patent. As for racing, it is niaive to believe that just because an 1125R beats other opposition isn't necessarily to do with the brakes. The 1125R has a great engine and chassis, so maybe it would be even better with a twin disc setup fitted? How do you know? It could also have won races due to a huge number of other factors such as because of a better rider, hardly any quality opposition (Canadian Superbikes), weather, luck (or other riders bad luck), tyres or simply because the 1125R is able to run against far smaller capacity machines due to 'special dispensation' on the rules (Italian Supertwin). I applaud every win that any Buell takes in racing, but am not blind to other factors that influence race results. Unlike you M1, I have actually run a Buell race team, so have direct experience of the brake problems described in such detail elsewhere. I tried very hard for 16 months to get the stock ZTL brake to work in race situations on UK tracks as well as the 'traditional' twin disc setup, but despite the help of Henry Duga and some very good brake experts over here we were unable to match the performance or longevity of a good twin disc setup. When you completely run out of brakes after just 3 laps due to overheating, or wear through a set of pads in 10 laps, you have to do something about it. When we changed to stock R1 calipers (the 'old' blue spot parts not radials!) the brakes were immediately improved in feel, didn't fade due to heat and lasted a whole season instead of half a race. A little extra usprung weight (less than you may think with a lightweight wheel) was a small price to pay for the extra performance and peace of mind. By the way, lap times were over 2 seconds faster at some circuits with the twin disc setup fited compared to the ZTL. Phil Read Jr, our rider for 2006, is a very experienced racer and has competed at every level including Superbikes and the UK 250GP championship. When he says that the brake setup on our bike was one of the best he had ever used, and described the stock ZTL as 'frighteneing' I tend to believe him. I can assure you if he thought that the brakes were in any way inferior he would have said so. Lastly, just because Free Spirits had brake problems with the Brembo setup is not proof that the ZTL is better. Why do you think they and other top teams changed brakes in the first place? Because of problems with the ZTL. Try to look at this issue without the rose tinted factory glasses on. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
This has turned into a ZTL performance conflict, for one more time. For me the issue is simple...... It seems that 99% of journos and other superbike riders and racers prefer the dual disk set-up. Also one of the major issues with the reviews of the 1125R were the ZTL2's performance. So, offer the dual BREMBOS as an option and let people decide for their own bike, according to their own taste. It is not that hard is it ???? Buell has already used Brembo for manufacturing the chassis and swingarm of the XBs. If Buell thinks that the ZTL2 is superior to any dual set up, the only way to prove it is through racing. Everything else is just interesting theories. What is the naked Buell 1125 ZEUS ?? Is it equipped with dual BREMBO brakes and why?? | ||
| Sarodude |
If only there were a thread someplace else on this board discussing this brake issue... -Saro | ||
| M1combat |
Matt I try really hard to look at things without rose tinted glasses but it's hard to do when I see as many or MORE race teams doing well with the ZTL setup on a Buell as I do a Dual Disc setup on a Buell. I'm not just blindly following along with whatever Buell says by any means. I'm a race fan far before I'm a Buell fan. I just see plenty of people using a ZTL setup in good long races being perfectly competitive with other bikes that have a conventional setup and it makes me think that the ZTL must be working alright. Even in endurance races... Can you explain that? As far as other manufacturers using a ZTL patent be damned? That doesn't work here. The patent prevents anyone else from using a perimeter mounted disc that is mounted in such a way that it can float. The rotor MUST float or it will warp post haste. This is also why other manufacturers tried it years ago and gave up on it. They couldn't figure out a good way to mount it in a floating setup so the rotors warped. They stopped using it because THEY were too ignorant to figure out a way to mount it properly. They also COMPLETELY missed the boat on it's unsprung mass benefits (it's main and almost entire benefit). Of course they decided it was inferior... They couldn't figure out how to make it superior. Has Buell done that? Well I don't exactly know. You certainly have more experience at running a race team than I do I'll give you that for sure but I can certainly watch racing as well as anyone. To be honest I've watched enough of it that I can pick out the little nuances that are entirely lost on other spectators. One of the nuances that I have NOT picked out is signs of fading ZTL brakes in FX class motorcycles (about the only races involving Buells we have had the fortune to have nationally televised). So what did Henry say about your brake fade issues? | ||
| Trojan |
The patent prevents anyone else from using a perimeter mounted disc that is mounted in such a way that it can float. The rotor MUST float or it will warp post haste. This is also why other manufacturers tried it years ago and gave up on it. They couldn't figure out a good way to mount it in a floating setup so the rotors warped. They stopped using it because THEY were too ignorant to figure out a way to mount it properly. They also COMPLETELY missed the boat on it's unsprung mass benefits (it's main and almost entire benefit). Of course they decided it was inferior... They couldn't figure out how to make it superior. The issue that stopped other manufacturers using the perimeter brake setup wasn't warping rotors, but a number of other factors. Braking still offer a perimeter disc conversion for a number of bikes (including the tube frame Buells) and they were fitted as standard to some of the Ghezzi & Brian range of hand built Guzzi based sports bikes (Ghezzi & Brian no longer make complete bikes because of ridiculous new Euro laws that hamstring small manufacturers, but that is another story). The Braking system used fixed discs but had the option of a twin disc setup as well as the twin disc that was more publicised. These brakes were tested widely by WSB teams (Ten Kate tried them extensively with Chris Vermuelen) and used for a while by some teams in 125GP racing, where the theoretical benefits of lower unsprung weight are the greatest. The main reasons why the teams stopped using the rim mounted brakes were: 1. Overheating. Even using carbon compound race pads they had trouble reaching the end of a race without severe brake fade caused by too much heat. 2. Handling was deemed to suffer through the gyroscopic forces generated by having so much weight on the rim of the wheel. The reason why race teams try to use the lightest possible wheel rim is not just for reduced unsprung weight, but to make the wheel easier to change direction. I'm sure we have all done the experiment at school when you hold a spinning bicycle wheel. Remember how hard it was to move? The biggest result of this was that riders found it extremely hard to brake right up to the apex of a turn, even when banked right over, as they are used to with conventional brake setups. One of the consequences of mounting the disc so far out on the edge of the rim is that when you btrake the bike wants to stand up and go straight on. This is also true of the ZTL brake, but most people won't find that out when riding on the street, as we are all taught to brake in a straight line only anyway. 3. And most importantly of all. They found no discernible braking improvement over a 'standard' state of the art conventional brake set up, and if that is the case why change? There were other less important reasons such as wheel changing being slower, but that wasn't an issue in not using them apparently. If you use a single caliper/disc (regardless of how many piston you put in it), the heat build up will be much greater than when using two calipers/discs to do the same job. In theory this would be twice as much wouldn't it? Rim discs are 'hidden' by the tyre and rim of the wheel, so get a lot less cooling airflow than conventional hub mounted discs. Jens at Hillbilly solved his issues by making a large air scoop channeling cooling air to the caliper, but you really shouldn't have to do this just to make the brakes work properly. Henry was extremely helpful in our quest to make the ZTL brake work, sending us thicker discs and some race compound pads that they were using at the time. Neither had the desired effect though and lasted only fractionally longer than the stock items. Maybe we have more corners that need harder braking for longer periods over here than you do in US race tracks. We probably have shorter laps, and if you ever see Cadwell Park you'd see how hard brakes have to work just to get around the lap. I saw our rider crash because the brakes faded to nothing in the space of half a lap. Luckily he was unhurt. There was nothing mechanically wrong with the ZTL brakes that could have caused this to happen, it just simply could not cope with the heat. I have been present when journalists have experienced exactly the same problems and run off track after just 2 laps of Bruntingthorpe proving ground. When he came back to the garage the brake lever came straight back to the bars, but after 10 minutes 'cool down' it was back as it should be (until the next time the bike went out). A lot of the top FX and Pro Thunderbikes Buells also changed to twin discs when racing the XB, I assume for exactly the same reasosn that we did. The bottonm line though is that, when we changed to a standard twin disc setup all of these problems disappeared overnight. Lap times were faster and more consistent, brake pad wear was hugely improved, handling didn't suffer in the slightest and most importantly, rider confidence was 100% improved. If the rider expects the brakes to fail he won't try anywhere near as hard as when he knows they will owrk well every time  We were told that the ZTL2 had cured this problem, but I get calls all the time from people racing or doing track days on the 1125 who have experienced brake failure due to exactly the same reasons as we did. I have spoken nobody who actually prefers the ZTL/ZTL2 brake on track compared to traditional setups. I am sure that ZTL has good theoretical advantages over standard brake systems, as does Beringer's Aerotec 4 disc system, hub centre steering, oval pistons etc etc. However some theoretical benefits just don't translate into practical improvements and do not improve on what is already available, and fail to catch on with the highly conservative motorcycle industry.  | ||
| Jlnance |
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| Firebolt428 |
Personal preference if you ask me. I have been racing and winning with the ZTL system since the beginning (2004) and HAVE NEVER had a problem with them. I had some brake fade in the beginning and switched brake pad manufacturer and went with the Brembo. The only problem I have run into is warped rotors towards the end of the race season. this is a argument that will go on forever.. The below pic was a couple weeks ago and I got him on the brakes for the lead. Ended up finishing 2nd but point being I say its personal preference.  (Message edited by firebolt428 on July 03, 2008) | ||
| Bigeasy |
Matt, I have had some problems at the track with my brakes on the 1125r also. The stock pads kinda suck when you decide to wick it up. I changed my master to the one off the xbrr and got alot better feel. Also just got the 6mm thick rotor and race pads from Buell racing. I am hoping it willbe even better. As far as racing I will take your word on that. I know I wasnt happy with the brake setup on my xb at all. Warped 2 rotor and felt them fade alot when riding hard. I will say the 1125r matches my ducati for power on the brakes, but the duc had better feel. The Ducati never faded as well. I also noticed the way the ztl is mounted inside the tire it was not geeting as much air flow. I even call Al at american sport bike to see if anyone was going to make a fender with a small air scoop to get more air on the disc. He said it was an interesting idea but he didnt know of anyone. Tell me how did this workout? Was there any pull from the scoop at speed? I think for my trackday riding the bits I have purchased will solve the problem for me. But the faster I get the more I am considering going racing to see what I am made of.  Thanks for the email on the sauron pipe! Still waiting for that crazy exhaust you said was coming soon before I pull the trigger. art (Message edited by bigeasy on July 03, 2008) | ||
| M1combat |
They can do anything they'd like with a prototype Jlnance... They can't sell it though and that bike was introduced as a prototype long after Buell was gearing up for ZTL production. So... why do the Euro racers despise the ZTL and the American racers tend to figure it's OK? Why doesn't Steve Crevier have trouble with it? (Or does he?) Why do they seem to work just fine in Moto-ST (an endurance class). Why did mine fade with Lyndall (carbon composite... their "race" pads) but never again after a swap to EBC HH pads? Something doesn't add up here. It's highly unlikely that every track in the US that ZTL equipped racers run on are not hard on the brakes. It's equally unlikely that the racetracks across the pond are all exceedingly hard on the brakes. So what gives? "One of the consequences of mounting the disc so far out on the edge of the rim is that when you btrake the bike wants to stand up and go straight on." Uhhh... can you explain that one to me? The laws of physics in my little world don't seem to accept that as being the case. I know a lot of people have experienced that with tires that don't really suit the geometry of the XB but it's not a rotor location/type issue. WRT the effort at the bars I can understand that and pretty well agree other than I seem to remember someone other than Buell doing the math on that one and decided it was a wash due to the reduced mass of the wheel and only having one rotor instead of two. It still doesn't add up though... Some people have issues with it at pretty well all levels of the sport in which it is used and some don't? That in and of itself tells ME that it isn't the brakes. I mean you can't really tell me that it's a rider competency/speed issue as Crevier is pretty damn fast. So is Higbee. So are many other people that use it and seem to like it. So far the ONLY thing I've noticed that may point to a trend is that the heavier riders seem to have more issues than the little guys. I'll accept the fact that maybe the ZTL operates closer to it's heat dissipation capacity given a rider mass, and that maybe the heavier riders exceed that limit (Your rider was a larger guy right?). Erik... I'd be happy to be the "heavier" (a little over 200lbs) test rider for the next evolution of the ZTL . I even live in AZ already, and for the racetrack sessions you can just fly me wherever I need to go. My schedule is pretty well open and I'll make arrangements if you need me . I understand the line and have no problem what so ever with a NDA . | ||
| Alessio66xb12r |
sunday 5 Mugello next round of Italian Supertwins | ||
| Trojan |
So... why do the Euro racers despise the ZTL and the American racers tend to figure it's OK? This may sound very cynical, but think about a little bit... Here in Europe there is no contingency money, no prize money and no interest from Buell in supporting racers. This also means that racers can say what they think about the product without fear of prize or contingency money being withheld etc. If they don't believe a part is working as well as it should then they feel no loyalty to keep it stock for the sake of payment or support. I would agree that the heavier the rider is the more problems he is likely to encounter with the ZTL brake, and this to me indicates that the brake is only just capable of working really well at street speeds and when not worked too hard. Add some weight or speed and the cracks appear in the system. As Bigeasy said, changing to a Ducati system gave both better feel and more importantly no fading issues either. Brakes are about 30% mechanics and 70% confidence when you are racing. If you have lost confidence in the front brake then you may as well not bother racing at all. If thatmeans changing brakes to get the feel, performance, reliability and confidence to go faster back, then so be it. P.S. Good luck to Free Spirits and all of the other Buell racers at Mugello this weekend (Message edited by trojan on July 04, 2008) | ||
| Alessio66xb12r |
the 1125 has an advantage :the high speed of that circuit. from me also ....Good luck to Free Spirits and all the others buell racers bye Alessio | ||
| Jlnance |
They can do anything they'd like with a prototype Jlnance... They can't sell it though and that bike was introduced as a prototype long after Buell was gearing up for ZTL production. I only posted that in response to the idea that if ZTL was a good idea, Honda would be using it. Honda obviously finds it an interesting idea, along with several other novel features I see on that bike. Whether it's interesting enough to develop into production, who knows. | ||
| M1combat |
I think they might sometime after the patent wears off. They won't do it immediately I don't think. |
