| Author | Message | ||
     Trojan |
After seeing the results of the Australian WSB round it appears that the new rules have turned the World's most exciting series into the most boring even after just 4 races with the new rules (3 won by the Ducati 1098). I don't think I'll bother watching the rest of the season unless it turns around at the next meeting....  | ||
| Vagelis46 |
We need 1-2 more races to say if Ducati has an advantage. It is too early. It will even out..... Yamaha is the problem so far. They have problems with the tires, after the half of the race. Suzuki are doing OK with Nieto, and Honda seems competitive with Checa. The season has just started and the races so far were spectacular. Checa will be very strong in Valencia. I hope he scores his first win in WSBK for Honda. | ||
| Jimidan |
Actually, I was just thinking just how exciting this season is going to be...with the Supersport like freight trains of 10 riders nose to tail. One can ponder which has more to do with the winners...the new 1098 or Troy B. He IS still the most dominant racer in WBK, even though he didn't win last year (although he could have on a 999, no less). Yeah, he rides a Ducati, but he could win on another brand too...he is just that good. I will watch for you and let you know what happens. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
"Anonymous chimed in on the MotoGP thread that big bang engines make sense primarily when the redlines get up into the stratosphere as it is also a way of eliminating crankshaft "whip" at those elevated speeds. " I do not agree that you need a 16000rpm redline for a 'big-bang' to make sence. Even at 8-10000 rpm redline, 2-cylinder engines have better traction than 4-cylinder engines. This is a fact. All bikers that have tried 2 or 4 cylinder engines have experienced this. This is the reason I always go for 2-cylider sportbikes. As Blake said, when a IL-4 'big-bang' is for sale, then a LOT of people will be interested. I think that a V-2 engine is more expensive to manufacture than an 'big-bang' IL4. More cylinder heads, cams, cam-chains.... | ||
| Jaimec |
Biaggi broke his wrist. Looks like WSBK will be a bit less "colorful" until he's back on the track... | ||
| Jaimec |
So BMW has officially unveiled their Superbike contender for 2009: http://tinyurl.com/5cnwk4 Transverse Inline-4 engine, like everybody but Ducati and KTM. Inverted telescopic forks, like everybody else. Chain drive, like everybody else. So just EXACTLY what makes this a BMW? Could be a Honda built in Germany for all the hype... | ||
| Elvis |
Cool! Thanks for the heads up! I think a couple things that will make it different: 1. It will have a BMW Roundel on it. 2. It will have exotic components and likely sell for $30,000 - $40,000 dollars. But in a more serious answer to your question, I think BMW is taking the safe route and using proven technology (many people fault Buell for doing things differently and argue that if ZTL etc. really worked all the other bikes would be using them). I'm curious if any Japanese makers will follow the Ducati/BMW lead and make a true homologation bike. Could that be the next trend? I heard WSBK will raise the homologation limit to 3,000 units. That should make it more difficult to do it with hyper-exotics. Also as BMW and maybe others dive into the exotic bike market will there be too much supply and not enough demand? It will be interesting to see how it shakes out. Also, what if BMW takes first with their $40,000 bike and Ducati takes second with their $40,000 bike and Suzuki takes third with their $13,000 bike? How will consumers view that? Will the exotics be worth that much extra just because they're a few fractions of a second faster? I'd expect BMW (like Ducati) to sell a version of this bike that looks the same minus some of the exotic componentry for a much more reasonable price. | ||
| Blake |
The article says that it will sell for $20K in street form.  Conventional side-mount exhaust.  Photos courtesy of... http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/mcn/2008/april/14-20/apr1608bmwoficiallyunveilsworldsuperbikecontender/ (Message edited by blake on April 16, 2008) | ||
| Blake |
Nice forks, especially if they come on the street bike version. I like the all-black color scheme. | ||
| Jaimec |
I think that's just unpainted carbon fiber, like the MotoGP bikes before they get all the team colors applied. | ||
| Benm2 |
A Subaru WRX with some basic aftermarket tuning can stomp out a 911 Turbo like a tossed cigarette butt, and costs thousands less. But one will always be a Porsche. | ||
| Elvis |
The article says that it will sell for $20K in street form. D'oh! I should learn to read more closely. At $20,000, that will put some pressure on Ducati (I expect Ducati's $40,000 is a good bit higher than their actual cost, but they know they can sell them at that point). I'm still hoping Buell is at least considering an 1125RR for AMA Superbike (I think they'd have to sell 400) if not WSBK. Some exciting things are happening in the motorcycle world. I don't remember a period in which things were quite this . . . interesting . . . since the introduction of the original Ninja and the ensuing Japanese battle in the mid to late '80s. | ||
| Jaimec |
There's a rumor that DMG is NOT considering 1000cc bikes at all for AMA Superbike next year. Check out all of the articles at Superbike Planet. It sounds like they are considering a 600cc Superbike Class. I hope they reconsider. | ||
| Elvis |
Thanks Jaime. I was just reading some of those articles. I had assumed the "600 Superbike" and Moto St would be in addition to the current Superbike, which would, in my opinion, be a GREAT series. If they eliminate the 1000/1200 cc Superbike, however, I think it would suddenly switch from GREAT to LOUSY. The article indicates options are still open so hopefully they will keep the 1000/1200 cc Superbike, but it looks like it could be in jeopardy. . . . just when Buell had a chance of breaking into that Superbike class. Maybe he's being very cagey and suggesting they'll eliminate the class so that when they actually go with a horsepower limited Superbike class (like Canadian Superbike) people will actually welcome it. I don't know, but you just ruined my day with that little bit of rumor (I won't shoot the messenger though - thanks for the heads up). | ||
| Blake |
Very bad assumption there Jaime. Getting your motorcycle news from Superbike planet is like getting your world news from Hugo Chavez. | ||
| Jaimec |
We shall see what we shall see, won't we? | ||
| Elvis |
Now that I have some more time, I went back to read some of the Superbikeplanet info again to see what is real and what is reactionary speculation. I found this quote from Yamaha Racing manager Keith McCarty key: Officially, as it stands today, there has been no mention of the continuation of a 1000cc Superbike class. McCarty said that DMG floated some items in their meeting, one of which was a 1000cc class. "I don't think that they ever said there wasn't going to be a 1000cc class," he said. "The way it was proposed to us, there will be a 1000cc class. But it was something more in an idea stage as opposed to what they are doing. They did propose 600s and 1000s to continue to run. I don't think that their motive is to prevent anybody from participating. But again, we don't have all the details. So it's difficult to see how this business is going to change." That quote, combined with common sense would lead me to believe there is no reason to assume big displacement Superbike will be eliminated. I think Superbikeplanet is letting the information vacuum lead them to irrational conclusions. From this it sounds like they could discontinue Superbike just like they could create a race exclusively for riders over 350 pounds, but there's no logical reason to assume they would do either of those things. | ||
| Elvis |
. . . if I had to make a bet on what the AMA is going to look like based on all the bits and pieces we've heard plus some common sense, I'd say: 1. Moto St 2. 600 Superbike (Formula Xtreme) 3. Superbike (horsepower limited like Canadian Superbike) I think that would be a good series (even though I've already said I prefer the WSBK format to a horsepower limited). That line-up would be entertaining, allow participation from nearly all manufacturers (if they're interested) plus allow new manufacturers to participate (since the horsepower limited superbike would not require the creation of an homologation bike) - teams like Bimota and Benelli could compete in something like that if they chose to without having to make and sell hundreds or thousands of homologation bikes. That possible line-up would also provide the possibility for Buell to participate at all levels (I have a feeling Roger Edmondson would like to get them involved to help attract nationalistic spectators). | ||
| Jaimec |
But Elvis, there was no LOGICAL reason for MotoGP to reduce displacement from 990cc to the current 800cc, but they did anyway... | ||
| Trojan |
If the AMA continue on their Suicidal plans to make Superbikes 600cc i think they will see a mass exodus of top riders (except those that are there purely for the money), and would put the US series completely out of kilter with the rest of the world's Superbike championships. The AMA already has the FX championship, that is run to different rules than everyone else and isn't exactly being copied around the world, so why run another 600 series? Unfortunately, as in MotoGP, there is an assumption amongst promoters/organisers that lowering the cc limit will lower race speeds and make racing safer, which is rubbish and has been disproven time and again. Modern 600's are already faster than Superbikes were just a couple of years ago, and further development will undoubtedly make them faster still. More worryingly though, corner speeds will increase over Superbikes, which will actually make the racing more dangerous rather than less. If the organisers are truly concerned with safety then they should spend some money on track improvements rather than constantly trying to slow bikes by placing artificial limits on them. All this does is give the engineers another challenge to overcome  Colin Edwards, who is widely touted to be returning to AMA with Yamaha next year, has already said that if they go to a 600cc Superbike limit then he is not interested in doing it and in his words 'It would take a shit load of money to make me ride a 600!'. Latest paddock rumours however are predicting that Colin may well stay at Tech 3 with Toseland next year, given his improvement in form and his great relationship with the team. Unfortunately the final decision will be for Yamaha to make so is out of Colin's/Tech 3's hands. | ||
| Elvis |
I agree, I think it would be a HUGE mistake. . . . but based on the quote I posted above in blue and red, I don't get where the rumor is coming from.  Based on Keith McCarty's quote, it sounds like Roger Edmondson said something like: "We're trying to determine what sort of classes to offer next year and we're trying to get some feedback from the manufacturers. We're thinking about offering a 600cc race, a 1000cc race and Moto ST, but we don't have all the details worked out and we wanted to get your feedback to finalize those details." I don't get how that becomes translated into" "The 1000cc class is being eliminated." . . . and if there was any idea by Edmondson that he might consider eliminating the class, the feedback he got clearly says: "DON'T" And why would he ask for that feedback if he wasn't going to listen to it? I just think people are getting upset over nothing. As you say, it would be stupid to eliminate the class. I don't think Roger Edmondson's stupid, so I don't think it's going to happen. . . . and I haven't seen any statements - official or otherwise - that would even suggest that is being seriously considered. I think this is just a matter of people's fear of change (particularly those who are doing well with the current system) leading to irrational paranoia. As Jaime says, we'll see. But if I had to put any money on it, I'd be willing to bet we will see a large displacement Superbike - hopefully in line with WSBK (and that may well be how the rumor got started - Edmondson's suggestion that he likely won't continue the Superbike class as planned), but I'm willing to concede that detail at this point. I'd prefer a WSBK format, but I can live with a more likely Canadian Superbike format. . . . and, while it's not my first choice, a Canadian Superbike format would give Buell a chance to compete next year (and I can't help wondering if Crevier's Canadian effort this year was catalyzed by a wink and a nod from Edmondson to Erik Buell at some point in this whole process). (Message edited by elvis on April 17, 2008) | ||
| Elvis |
Here it is: http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2008/Apr/080417a.ht m Great news! Great series! Looks like it will be exactly what I was hoping for: Moto ST, Formula Xtreme (600 Superbike) - though it looks like it will be revised with HP and weight limits to keep things very even and Superbike (renamed LiterBike, but retaining the 2009 rules but with spec tires and fuel). Plus the addition of a Rookies Cup. I think this will make for some very entertaining racing. (Message edited by elvis on April 17, 2008) | ||
| Trojan |
I have just read a preview of the proposed new AMA rules in the motorcycle news, and it seems that they were very reluctant to have a Superbike class at all, and have put some pretty big restrictions on the 'Literbike' class rules for next year. There is apparently NO prize fund for this class, which will severely limit the amount of privateers willing to race at the top level for no return. Secondly, they will insist that major manufacturers field at least 4 bikes each in the class, despite Yamaha only having 1 superbike team (2 bikes) and 1 privateer willing to go to 'Literbike' so far. It seems to me that the organisers have been forced to run a 'Superbike ' class by the factories, but don't really want one and will do their best to make sure it can't work for long. Which is a shame, because that just leaves FX and MotoST, two classes ignored by the rest of the world and unlikely to gather favour elsewhere either at present. Where this leaves the US Championship series and it's current high standing amongst domestic Superbike series, is anyone's guess, but I suspect it will leave the US major championships in isolation with no bridge for US talent to jump to World Championship level, and no reason for International talent to race in the USA any more Given the France family history, I doubt they will worry what the rest of the world thinks, provided they can put on a NASCAR style show and get lots of money from it, but I think it may spell a sad decline for US riders on the international stage and for the US in staging world championship events. A very sad day indeed | ||
| Jaimec |
Who knows? Maybe they'll recognize that more people are in to watch "Literbike" and don't give a rat's ass about the other classes. Money talks, Bullshit walks... I can't picture Mat Mladin on a 600, and Spies must be thinking that he's timed his departure from the series perfectly. Will Mat make the jump to WSBK after all of these years? | ||
| Blake |
But isn't it, as far as being finalized, just all purely rumor at this point? (Message edited by blake on April 26, 2008) | ||
| Blake |
"The premier class becomes "Daytona Superbikes" which will include a very wide array of machinery from different manufacturers, from a BMW 1200 to a Japanese four-cylinder 600. Daytona Superbike will be horsepower limited and power to weight ratio limited--with the bikes being weighed with rider. Daytona Superbike will be regulated to improve parity and competition, including regular ECU exchanges." "with the bikes being weighed with rider" YES! Outstanding! I predict that we'll be seeing the same rule instituted by other top motorcycle racing organizations. It has been WAY too long in coming. Matt, I don't know where you are coming from, a top motorcycle road racer is a top motorcycle road racer. You might as well say that no Formula-1 racer would ever leave that organization to come race in NASCAR. Plus, the AMA is not now intended to be a farm team or under-class to any other series. Now being under the direction of folks who know how to promote racing, AMA road racing will be looking to rise to a dominant place in world class racing. | ||
| Smoke |
i disagree with the superbikes being a spec type class of equal horsepower/weight ratios. to me, a superbike class is the most sophisticated production bike from each manufacturer. i personally like the current lineup of superbike, superstock, supersport and formula extreme. the rules for superbike had been tweaked to allow larger displacement water cooled v-twins to compete with the inline 4's. personally, i would not care to see the AMA roadracing follow the Nascar technical direction. one kind of frame, engine and bodywork. if it is only about rider skill, put every rider on a spec bike with spec tires and limit it to 200cc. the fans will appear in droves, not. just my opinion, we'll see what shakes out. tim | ||
| Bads1 |
Back at Daytona Mladin said in a tv interview that he may retire when or if Spies jumps to GP. He said that he has nobody left to challenge him. I think Matt will leave the series this year end. Maybe I'm wrong but if things are level playing field I'd like to see the talent change. Is Matt as good with everyone on even matched equipment?? | ||
| Trojan |
I don't know where you are coming from, a top motorcycle road racer is a top motorcycle road racer. You might as well say that no Formula-1 racer would ever leave that organization to come race in NASCAR. The only F1 drivers that have gone to race in Nascar are either those that didn't make it or those that can no longer attract top drives in F1 (or Alex Zanardi, who can no longer race in F1 because of his injuries). No top F1 drivers would consider quitting F1 at the top to drive in a domestic series, whether it is Nascar, Touring cars or Indy unless it is for money. However, there are still more ex-F1 drivers in German Touring Cars than there ever have been in Nascar, and that is partly because the Touring car formula is, with minor deviations, the same format throughout the world (other than the USA). The problem with Nascar, and 'Daytona Superbike' is that it is completely different to the racing that goes on in the rest of the world, so will be of limited interest outside the USA to both spectators AND competitors. The Japanese factories are also not particularly interested in 'strange' one -off domestic formulae either. Just look at the factory disinterest in FX other than at Daytona once a year. As for bikes being weighed with the rider, this has been done in 125GP racing for a few years, and makes perfect sense in a lightweight series where the bike weighs next to nothing. For a superbike type series it makes no sense and is just a gimmick. It will favour smaller and smaller riders in order to get right down to the minimum weight for the class, and will lead to same situation that now hampers Kart racing. Tiny pilots, but with bikes being ballasted with lead to make the weight and to distribute the weight better. This way you may still have two bikes/riders weighing exactly the same, but one will still have a big advantage. Whilst extremely popular in the USA, Nascar is a domestic dead end, and 'Daytona Superbike' will unfortunately be the same I feel. How many foreign manufacturers get involved in Nascar? None. And lets face it, if Audi or BMW thought there would be a marketing advantage in racing in Nascar rather than other series they would certainly do so. Unless WSB changes their rules to come into line with the USA (not likely given the influence that the factories have in WSB) the major factories will concentrate even more of their efforts in WSB and MotoGP, leaving the quality of the US race scene a lot poorer for it. | ||
| Bads1 |
Toyota.... Trojan. Ricky Carmichael made the leap leap to Nascar and he dominated Moto-x till he quit and most likely still could. Only one that gives him comp is Stewart. If the factories concensrtate more on WSB and less on AMA they will only hurt them selves in sales here. I doubt they would do that at all. |
