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Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 11:41 pm: | 
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Ducati is a bigtime heritage motorcycle company. Their heritage is the L-Twin engine. It would be idiotic for them to change their major product platform to one that more closely resembles their competition. |
Jaimec
| | Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 11:04 am: |
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The competition in Superbike (World, AMA or BSB) would eat the XBRR alive. Sorry, it's not in the same class. The 1125R has a much better shot if they ever decide to go for it. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 11:31 am: |
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Jamie, that MV is a limited to 100 models which is more a collectors item than a bike any will buy for race track experience. That doesn't make it comparable in 'everyday' terms considering the Desmo RR and Veltro are more closely matched as machines that owners will actually take to riding. Granted, more likely riding on a track, but the 100 F4CC's will see the odd pose mile by their celeb owners, live in a private collection, seldom if ever venturing onto a track, let alone even someones driveway just to have the sun kiss it even. At least that's the way I see it.
Rocket |
Jaimec
| | Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 11:44 am: |
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Yeah, I think I'd want mine in a hermetically sealed, environmentally controlled glass display case in my living room. Right next to the Porsche 959 Rally Car...  |
Trojan
| | Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 11:49 am: |
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The competition in Superbike (World, AMA or BSB) would eat the XBRR alive. Sorry, it's not in the same class. The 1125R has a much better shot if they ever decide to go for it.
I think even the 1125R would need a serious horsepower boost to be competitive at WSB. 200bhp seems to be the current benchmark, and although the rules are changing somewhat in an effort to cut costs I can't see horsepower figures tumbling as a consequence.
I believe that smaller manufacturers such as Buell should be given better dispensation for even smaller production runs than they currently get. This would encourage some of the smaller factories to get involved in the way that they used to.
Once upon a time the smaller manufacturers such as Buell & Bimota only had to build 1500 bikes to homologate them for WSB, now it is 3000. I would like to see that figure brought down to around 300-500 for genuine 'hand made' manufacturers such as as Vyrus, Morini, Ghezzi & Brian etc. and definitely think this would bring some new excitement to the series. |
Jaimec
| | Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 02:37 pm: |
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Blake, BMW has made twins since 1923 (three years before Ducati was founded), but even they realize that if they want to win, they have to build what wins. The K46, therefore, is an IL4 and not the quirky boxer twin people associate with BMW.
That's not to say BMW is abandoning the boxer, the HP2 Sport is living proof of that. But they know there's no way that thing would ever be competitive in Superbike, so they're targetting endurance racing and similar type events.
Ducati didn't get into motorcycles for another two decades. If BMW can decide they want to build a winning bike to the existing status quo, there's no reason Ducati can't either. Heck, if Ducati was that married to the L-Twin, they'd be racing one of those in MotoGP instead of a V-4. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 04:39 pm: |
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Jaime,
Not sure who you are intending to debate. I can't see that it is me.
Who suggested the XBRR for WSBK?  |
Jaimec
| | Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 04:52 pm: |
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Blake,
I was responding to this:
"Ducati is a bigtime heritage motorcycle company. Their heritage is the L-Twin engine. It would be idiotic for them to change their major product platform to one that more closely resembles their competition." |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 08:48 pm: |
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BMW are developing an all new IL 4 engine for WSB. Isn't this common knowledge?
Rocket |
Trojan
| | Posted on Friday, December 07, 2007 - 04:32 am: |
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"Ducati is a bigtime heritage motorcycle company. Their heritage is the L-Twin engine. It would be idiotic for them to change their major product platform to one that more closely resembles their competition."
Once upon a time Ducati were known only for small capacity single cylinder bikes, and had built up a worldwide racing reputation with them (and they continue to win in classic racing today). The V Twin only came later.
Ducati will build what they need to win. So long as they can do with the V (L) Twin they will continue to build them. As soon as they know that teh format needs to change you can guarantee they will develop something else that can win. It is no coincidence that they have worked so hard on the MotoGP project V4 and released the road going version too. If they need to win with a V4 they already have on ready and waiting.
The public will buy Ducati now whatever the format of the engine.
When asked why his latest WSB bike seemed very similar to the Japanese opposition, a source very close to the top of the BMW IL4 project has been quoted as saying that 'If you want to win you do what the Japanese do', and that is very true, as they seem to be very good at it don't they ;). |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, December 07, 2007 - 06:26 pm: |
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Which is why Ducati have won how many of the last ten WSBK championships?
I might consider a V-4 Ducati if it is set up in a big bang configuration. I think you are sorely incorrect about the format of Ducati engine. They still use Desmo, and I and a LOT of folks aren't interested in racing engines in street motorcycles. We like the sound and characteristics of twin cylinder machines.
Seem irrelevant since Ducati will be racing twins in WSBK for the foreseeable future. |
Jaimec
| | Posted on Friday, December 07, 2007 - 07:12 pm: |
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I think WSBK goes out of their way to keep Ducati happy. First, they let them tune the living daylights out of the 999 (way past what is allowed for the competition) and now they're letting them run an engine with 20% more displacement than the competition.
It's more telling to see how well Ducati has done lately in BSB and AMA SB.
At least in MotoGP it's a lot more equitable. Run as many cylinders as you want as long as it doesn't displace more than 800cc. I think they give you weight advantages for running fewer cylinders, but no one wants to trade off weight for number of cylinders in the 800cc world.
Honda had no problems with the V-5 in the 990cc series even with the additional weight. Aprilia was never able to capitalize on the weight advantage their three cylinder "Cube" model gave them. |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 10:21 am: |
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Why would Honda have a problem with the V-5?
Like it or not, an engine with more cylinders has a significant advantage. If you are unclear as to why, I'd be happy to explain.
At one point, two cylinder machines enjoyed a 33% advantage in displacement over the 4-cylinder competition. Then after much complaining by Japan Inc--justly so in my opinion--the displacement consideration for twin cylinder machines disappeared entirely in favor of additional allowable engine modifications. The problem with that was the significantly increased expense rigor that a more highly tuned/modified engine requires in order to be competitive. IN so doing, the AMA has relegated Ducati twins to unwinnable status in Superbike, so Ducati has withdrawn from the series--what a shame--and AMA don't allow the Ducati 750's to race in Supersport. Only in FX.
So now we are heading back to equal engine specs with displacement as the main parameter for achieving parity among machines/engines with different cylinder counts. But now instead of a 33% advantage, the twin cylinder machines have a 20% advantage.
If like for MotoGP machines, Superbikes are eventually deemed too fast for the tracks, what will be the remedy? Most likely back to 1000cc twins and maybe 850cc four cylinder machines? If history is any indication, that'll is likely to happen right about the time that Buell announces that they have a 1200cc class superbike racing machine to homologate for competition.
I agree, a 3000 unit requirement for homologation is onerous in favor of the large factories. Maybe have different homologation requirements for the chassis versus the engine, versus the bodywork?
(Message edited by Blake on December 08, 2007) |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 02:19 pm: |
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I think WSBK goes out of their way to keep Ducati happy. First, they let them tune the living daylights out of the 999 (way past what is allowed for the competition) and now they're letting them run an engine with 20% more displacement than the competition.
And Ducati ran what was essentially a 2006 bike in this years championship, which Toseland won on a Fireblade. How do you perceive WSB favours Ducati ? 
It's more telling to see how well Ducati has done lately in BSB and AMA SB.
Well, that favoured by the rule makers 999 hasn't won the series since 2005
2007 Ryuichi Kiyonari JAP HM Plant Honda Honda CBR1000RR
2006 Ryuichi Kiyonari JAP HM Plant Honda Honda CBR1000RR
2005 Gregorio Lavilla ESP Airwaves Ducati Ducati 999 F04
2004 John Reynolds ENG Rizla Suzuki Suzuki GSX-R1000
2003 Shane Byrne ENG MonsterMob Ducati Ducati 998 R
2002 Steve Hislop SCO MonsterMob Ducati UK Ducati 998 R
2001 John Reynolds ENG Rêve Red Bull Ducati Team Ducati 996
2000 Neil Hodgson ENG GSE Racing INS Ducati Ducati 996
1999 Troy Bayliss AUS GSE Racing INS Ducati Ducati 996
1998 Niall Mackenzie SCO Cadbury’s Boost Yamaha Yamaha YZF750
1997 Niall Mackenzie SCO Cadbury’s Boost Yamaha Yamaha YZF750
1996 Niall Mackenzie SCO Team Cadbury’s Boost Yamaha YZF750
1995* Steve Hislop SCO Team Devimead Racing Ducati 955
1995* Matt Llewellyn ENG Meakin Building Supplies Ducati 955
1994* Ian Simpson SCO Duckhams Team Norton Norton RFI 588
1993* Jamie Whitham ENG Team Fast Orange Yamaha Yamaha YZF750SP
1993* Jamie Whitham ENG Team Fast Orange Yamaha Yamaha YZF750SP
1992* John Reynolds ENG Team Green Kawasaki Kawasaki ZXR750R
1992* John Reynolds ENG Team Green Kawasaki Kawasaki ZXR750R
1991* Rob McElnea ENG Team Loctite Yamaha Yamaha OW01
1991* Jamie Whitham ENG Castrol Suzuki/Team Grant Suzuki GSX-R
1990* Terry Rymer ENG Team Loctite Yamaha Yamaha OW01
1990* Trevor Nation ENG JPS Norton Racing Norton RCW 588
1989* Brian Morrison SCO Honda UK/Murray Intl Honda RC30
1989* Steve Spray ENG JPS Norton Racing Norton RCW 588
1989* Steve Spray ENG JPS Norton Racing Norton RCW 588
1988* Darren Dixon ENG Padgett’s of Batley Suzuki RG500
1987* Roger Marshall ENG Heron/Skoal Bandit Suzuki**
* The full British Superbike Championship, as it exists today, was only launched as recently as 1996. Prior to that there had typically been more than one British series for production-based 750cc four-strokes, and then for Superbikes, with the Supercup usually regarded as the most prestigious. Before the adoption of the World Superbike formula, 500cc two-stroke machines were also eligible in TT F1, hence Darren Dixon’s 1988 title.
** Marshall raced both the GSX-R1100 and RG500
2008 Superbike & Supersport World Championship, Superstock FIM Cup Technical Regulations
Jamie, you might be a little surprised reading the rules for 2008.
Rocket |
Jaimec
| | Posted on Monday, December 17, 2007 - 09:36 pm: |
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VERRRY interesting reading:
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2007/Dec/071217b.ht m |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, December 17, 2007 - 10:57 pm: |
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Maybe Kevin Cameron can explain it so I can understand.
Blake (BSME) |
Jaimec
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 01:23 pm: |
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Well, to me it explains why IL4's reign supreme in Superbike, but V4's seem to reign in MotoGP. The stratospheric redlines in MotoGP work better with the shorter crankshaft and odd firing order of a V4, whereas at lower rpm's in superbike the IL4 works better. |
Vagelis46
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 03:22 pm: |
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I really do not see why motoGP or even WSBK classes should be based on displacement.
It would be better like this, with no limits for capacity, configuration, supercharging, rotary, turbo, etc :
1. Big class can use 22lt of fuel
2. Smaller class can use 16lt of fuell.
Then manufacturers could be more creative and try different solutions for the engine displacement and configuration.
Why a supercharged single cylinder 800cc could not be raced against an IL4 1000cc or a 3-cylinder 1100cc, or a rotary 660cc if they consume the same amount of fuel ??
Looking at cars, turbos are getting very popular, in small displacement engines like 1400cc and 1600cc, eg. Fiat and Peugeot. Usualy we have technology from cars passing to motos.
But unless racing classes give new ideas like superchargers & turbos the chance to compete and show to the public that are good, it will always be the same.....ILs4, Il4s, IL4s.
We should be happy&greatful that Ducati is still fighting to be competitive with 2-cylinder engines in WSBK. They could have just built 3000 V4 GP replicas and name them 1098R. But they still have faith in the 2-cylinder engines for motorcycle use.
Why motorcycle design is standing still the last 20 years ?? |
Jaimec
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 03:35 pm: |
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Forget twins... why don't we see some real SCREAMER V8s in motorcycle racing??? If they can manage 20,000 rpm redlines with just four cylinders, what could they manage with 8? |
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