| Author | Message | ||
     Reepicheep |
Right Blake, but whatever oversquare geometry you apply to the twin, could also be applied to the four. So the inline four will always have an "unfair advantage"  | ||
| M1combat |
"Way to go Macadam" Exactly  . Thank you for the win . | ||
| Rocketman |
The Race XBRR and Street 1098 make about the same horsepower (Yes advertised they don't, but I am getting my information from a good source). Bullshit. Prove it. Rocket | ||
| Slaughter |
Hell - let's simplify everything. Institute a $20,000 claiming rule and race anything you want. Think that'd make for the best lap times per dollar spent? I do. Go ahead and build your quarter million dollar racebike and then LOSE IT for $20K that day. AMA still has claiming rules though they're hardly every used. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Amen to that Slaughter. Of all the ways I can think of that would make racing interesting and competitive and of benefit to "the common man"... having $ limited classes somehow would make for some very cool racing. | ||
| Davegess |
When we used to run karts back in the day they had a claiming rule. It could be abused. Guy would spend time not money making one of those two strokes just scream and then get it claimed by somebody who could not tune a two stroke engine to save his life. Neat idea, not totally and always fair as it can be abused but it would be cool. They do it for horse racing all the time. | ||
| Buell2001b |
Excellent post, good job to the French men. | ||
| Blake |
Bill, I agree. That was the exact point I was attempting to convey, albeit poorly, in discussing the penalty suffered by a twin with 8 valves versus a four with 16 valves. Me no write good. Carlos (M2NC) nailed it! Riders do matter.  Thanks for bringing the discussion back down to Earth. Sean (Rocketman), Are you saying that the XBRR has more power, a superior performing engine to the 999R, or 1098? Cool! | ||
| M2nc |
The Race XBRR and Street 1098 make about the same horsepower (Yes advertised they don't, but I am getting my information from a good source. Bullshit. Prove it. Rocket I can't but a wise man once told me you can't go 180mph down the back stretch at Daytona with 130rwhp. So since the XBRR can and according to Macadam's report for one race they are gearing the bike for 299kmh (185mph) then the XBRR must have more than 130rwhp. According to the latest Cycle World test the 1098 has 150rwhp, but either it's not geared for or can not reach 180mph. All joking aside, Blake may be right - The XBRR may have a slight HP advantage over the Street 1098 but it can not be by much. I'd say the two bikes' Power-to-Weight ratios are within 10% of each other. If I am right then the Rider is the determining factor. One more interesting thing I picked up on the report. The two Buells passed the 998R when the rider of the 998R blew a corner. Then Macadam passed the other Buell by out braking him into the corner. So it sounds like rider skill to me. | ||
| Rocketman |
I can't argue about a race I didn't see. What I would like to see is the lap times for the Pro Twin race AND the French National Super Bike race, from the same meeting. That would be a lot more telling about the Buells performance, and which discipline they should be contesting. Rocket | ||
| Blake |
I think that winning the last four Pro-Twins races tells quite a lot. It seems some folks cannot ever be happy for any Buell racer/racing victory, needing instead to find some way to belittle such success. I don't get that, at all. | ||
| Rocketman |
needing instead to find some way to belittle such success. I don't get that, at all. Well Blake, I'm a realist. As such, when near every Buell fan on BadWeB seeks to prove how good an XBRR or 1450cc modified for racing XB's is by showing it beat a Ducati or three, then I want to know exactly what Ducati they beat. This is because Ducati's are run everywhere and in many different configurations and states of tune. All one has to do is find an appropriate race series where the big tuned or even racing Buells would fair well against a 'not so strong' field of Ducati's, and the wool is then able to be pulled over ones eyes. I believe the French series offers just this opportunity to the Buells. If I am to be convinced otherwise, someone please show me the Pro Twins lap times and the Super Bike lap times from the same meeting (I sure as heck can't find 'em) then I'll make a fair assessment. Somehow though, I think I already know the answer, which is, Buells beat up on a bunch of somewhat modified street bike Ducati's, and no Super Bikes or even close. I just believe in keeping it real and not trying to deceive those who don't know better. Rocket | ||
| Anonymous |
Da big bad Buells beat up on da itty bitty Ducatis? Awwww, poor Sean. | ||
| Reepicheep |
And in an odd moment of cosmic convergence, I went into my newest local Buell dealer today to get some parts (that took two weeks to arrive  ) and they had a Ducati 1099R in the show room right amongst all the Buells (a nice selection actually). The previous owner traded it in on a Harley Night Rod (no kidding!). That $20,000 Duc did not look anywhere near twice as fast as all the $10,000 Buells next to it | ||
| Court |
>>>That $20,000 Duc did not look anywhere near twice as fast as all the $10,000 Buells next to it It's not as well built either. It is a gorgeous bike. Right up there with the S-2. | ||
| Blake |
I agree! Poor Sean, the Ducatis were beat by the Buells. He's devastated. Hey Sean, why don't you ever apply the converse logic to your so-called realism? If the XBRR is so sucky, how is it beating the top Ducati Repli-racers? How is a crappy old air-cooled pushrod American V-Twin managing to best a gaggle of Italy's finest? And hey, if that isn't enough then take to slagging the racing class in which the XBRR is winning. You're a real gem you are. Why not just congratulate the winners and Buell for the success? To not do so is ridiculous and demonstrates some kind of bias. | ||
| Rocketman |
I don't give a shit that a Buell or three beat some Ducati's. Ducati have nothing to prove to me. As a bit of a fan of the marque, and yes I own a Duc, I don't see Ducati as 'letting me down'. The reality is, Ducati build fantastic bikes that we all dream of owning. Ducati can and do prove themselves on the race tracks of the world too. When one considers Ducati build ONLY 40.000 bikes a year, it's a pretty bloody amazing feat that they not only win in Moto GP, but they win in many other disciplines too. Be it Supermono 500cc's or Super Stock or Super Bike, or whatever. So where is Buell on the great scheme of things? Their race efforts are nothing short of a f*cking joke and a source of embarrassment to a long time Buell owner. Buell 'owe' my brand loyalty a huge reward. I'll take it one of two ways. Top level racing, or the production of the ultimate Streetfighter, which is what Buell are supposed to 'specialise' in. I have to ask. Does Erik Buell actually know where France is? I think it's time I showed Erik Buell how to do what he should be doing. That is, building a streetfighter motorcycle to better the S1W. Bullying a few French proddy racers with a sledge hammer is not what I consider reputation enhancement, lol!!! Rocket | ||
| Reepicheep |
If I "dreamed of owning a Ducati", I would own a Ducati. They aren't anything special around here. Heck, last time I saw one, I at first mistook it for a Honda SuperHawk. For which I am very sorry. I honestly meant no disrespect to the SuperHawk. | ||
| M1combat |
WTF Sean? You've become a Duck poser. Really though... What could you possibly hope to prove with the laptimes from the superbike race? That's not the class it was racing in and that's not the class the rules allow the RR to race in. What's your point? You think the RR should be racing in the superbike class? On what basis? Rules or laptimes? Also... How come it's all about the engine to you? Handling plays a "reasonably " important part in the race game and a well handling chassis combined with a somewhat competitive engine can and will win a race. I seem to recall Buell marketing the RR as having 157HP? I seem to recall Ducati marketing the 1098 as having 160? Don't quote me as I haven't looked a plots of either bike but I'll bet they're pretty comparable. I'd bet the RR is lighter by a decent margin (stock for stock). | ||
| Jimidan |
I think it's time I showed Erik Buell how to do what he should be doing. That is, building a streetfighter motorcycle to better the S1W. Bullying a few French proddy racers with a sledge hammer is not what I consider reputation enhancement, lol!!! That is LOL! I really wouldn't be holding my breath while waiting for that call. Actually, you are too late Rocket. I know there is a bike coming down the pike SOON that will better the S1 and XBRR, and run with the big Duck. Will it have a Rotax in it? That remains to be seen. | ||
| Rocketman |
It's simple. The RR is built as a thoroughbred racing motorcycle. No matter its engine configuration or type. No matter its power or capacity. It is an out and out racing motorcycle. As such it should be racing against other thoroughbred racing motorcycles if it wants to impress me. So an RR and a heavily modified XB at 1450cc (which to all intents and purposes is an RR with a BIG engine) beat a gaggle of Ducati's in a French national Pro Twins race. Ok, that's great, and I mean that, but c'mon let's be real. Such an achievement is in no way comparable to for example Daytona (not even the weakened version either), or Bol d Or, or Macau, or just a plain old Super whatever class, so why all the hullabaloo? Now if the RR / XB1450 etc etc were to race in a championship of international merit, and it won, I'd be jumping for joy too. But it hasn't. We are talking French national privateer series, which is great, but it isn't what I came to expect of the RR when Buell were busy hiring the likes of McWilliams and others. So yeah, an RR beat some Frogs on Ducati's. Absolutely fantastic. Where can I buy (RR) one? Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
I really wouldn't be holding my breath while waiting for that call. Actually, you are too late Rocket. I know there is a bike coming down the pike SOON that will better the S1 and XBRR, and run with the big Duck. Will it have a Rotax in it? That remains to be seen. Too late? I don't think so. Mine's already down the pike. Gimme a few days. Rotax? Nah, too small. Rocket's got that covered. Rocket | ||
| Blake |
Sean, It's just poor form on your part Sean. Some of that may be your British frankness. But good grief, you need to understand that BadWeB is a Buell enthusiasts' site, not the "Motorcycle Objectivity Forum" (MOFO?) LOL. The point is not that the four Buell wins in the French Pro-Twins series are on par with winning Daytona. That is your inaccurate interpretation of what in truth is just plain old enthusiasm and celebration for the successes being achieved by Macadam Moto and others in the French Pro-Twins series. It is simply a very positive accomplishment, something to be cheered, not to be in any way ridiculed. I think it comes down to personal attitude and demeanor. For instance: Some folks like me will say something like... "Congratulations and way to go Macadam Moto and Buell! I hope this is a step towards Buell becoming a factor on the world stage of motorcycle racing. It sure would be great to see Buell take it to that level." Compare that too... "So what? It's not like it won Daytona. It's a special Buell racing machine that beat some street bikes. Buell's racing program is nothing short of a f*cking joke and a source of embarrassment to a long time Buell owner." Miserable stuff for sure. How one may be embarrassed by a string of victories is beyond my comprehension. Some folks seem to think that Buell, a young corporation producing around 12,000 motorcycles per year, should suddenly leapfrog into world racing dominance with a superbike or MotoGP racing program that is on par with those of Ducati. That is absurdly unrealistic; just ask the folks at Aprilia, Ilmor, Petronas, and others who have tried. The way to progress in racing, especially under serious budgetary constraints, is to start at the beginner's levels and progress from there, gaining experience and knowledge and familiarity with the sport. You can only race the bikes you have. Some folks seem to think that producing a competitive repli-racer or even a platform from which to create one is a trivial matter. That is an absurdly ridiculous misconception, just ask the folks at Petronas, Ilmor, Moto Czyz, and others. So when we see Buells doing well against the likes of such highly renowned repli-racers like the Ducati 1098 or 998/999R, we should be encouraged, not embarrassed. A few years ago the idea of a Buell consistently winning over a large field of such competition would have been thought laughable. Well, it ain't laughable is it? It is now reality. If you cannot see that as a very encouraging and positive sign, then your view of the issue is horribly out of focus. Meeting such positive developments with ridicule instead of congratulations reflects upon the ridiculer, not Buell motorcycles. Way to go Macadam Moto! Way to go Buell Racing! I hope this is a positive step towards Buell becoming a factor at higher and higher levels of professional motorcycle racing. To imagine otherwise would be ridiculous. | ||
| Jimidan |
The RR is built as a thoroughbred racing motorcycle. No matter its engine configuration or type. No matter its power or capacity. It is an out and out racing motorcycle. As such it should be racing against other thoroughbred racing motorcycles if it wants to impress me. False premise, is what I think they call it. The XBRR is a modified street motorcycle, in accordance with the rules of AMA FX. I am sure the the Ducks were modified street motorcycles too, that probably cost in the neighborhood of $30,000 when all was considered. I love watching Buells and Ducks race, and that is not at all uncommon in AHRA...and apparently in the Euro. I agree that these races are in no way equal to the Daytona 200, or any FX race, but hey, it is still fun to watch them compete. To say that I have been disappointed with the way HD stifled Buell Racing is an understatement, but I am still plucking nuggets where I can find them. The fact that just a small handful of XBRR's are actually racing at all is also a big disappointment for me as a fan...but I will bet that it is a super bummer for those who worked so hard (and spent the big bucks) to create it. I feel really sorry for Erik especially, but I have a feeling he is over it with this new project coming down the pike (no, not Rocket's!). I am really rooting for Walt and Bison Racing at future FX races. Buell's best racing days are in the future...and so are its best bikes. I am excited about that! jimidan} | ||
| Jimidan |
Too late? I don't think so. Mine's already down the pike. Gimme a few days. Rotax? Nah, too small. Rocket's got that covered. Rocket" A few days huh? You are a funny guy. Who says that Buell would be using one of Rotax's existing powerplants? That isn't thinking out of the box. Think bigger. jimidan | ||
| Rocketman |
"Congratulations and way to go Macadam Moto and Buell! I hope this is a step towards Buell becoming a factor on the world stage of motorcycle racing. It sure would be great to see Buell take it to that level." After eight years of waiting, all Buell have proved is they can't race! Some folks seem to think that Buell, a young corporation producing around 12,000 motorcycles per year, should suddenly leapfrog into world racing dominance with a superbike or MotoGP racing program that is on par with those of Ducati. That is absurdly unrealistic; just ask the folks at Aprilia, Ilmor, Petronas, and others who have tried. What happened to BMW, KTM and that small giant killing company who were bankrupt 15 years ago? I believe they're called Ducati. The way to progress in racing, especially under serious budgetary constraints, is to start at the beginner's levels and progress from there, gaining experience and knowledge and familiarity with the sport. And when do you predict Buell will do so? Thus far, Buell dipped a small toe in a puddle, then cleared off leaving 50 odd antiquated design race bikes for privateers to pick up where Buell casually left off. So when we see Buells doing well against the likes of such highly renowned repli-racers like the Ducati 1098 or 998/999R, we should be encouraged, not embarrassed. It's nothing more than a cart horse in a donkey race. You can only race the bikes you have. Some folks seem to think that producing a competitive repli-racer or even a platform from which to create one is a trivial matter. That is an absurdly ridiculous misconception, just ask the folks at Petronas, Ilmor, Moto Czyz, and others. But these guys tried doing so at top level. Not some national Frog race series. Way to go Buell Racing! I hope this is a positive step towards Buell becoming a factor at higher and higher levels of professional motorcycle racing. But there is NO Buell racing. The only Buells racing anywhere in the world are PRIVATEER efforts. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
A few days huh? You are a funny guy. Who says that Buell would be using one of Rotax's existing powerplants? That isn't thinking out of the box. Think bigger. Well I'm such a funny guy that if the sun shines tomoz, I'll take a lovely pic just so's you know I was thinking out the box. How does 8 cylinders and 3500cc sound - same wheelbase as a CBR600? Will that do ya? Rocket | ||
| Blake |
"And when do you predict Buell will do so? Thus far, Buell dipped a small toe in a puddle, then cleared off leaving 50 odd antiquated design race bikes for privateers to pick up where Buell casually left off." They aren't antiquated. They were always and ever intended for privateers, never ever for any kind of Buell factory racing. It was in the press release. You no read good. | ||
| Rocketman |
They were always and ever intended for privateers, never ever for any kind of Buell factory racing. It was in the press release. Oh I know that Blake. But do you? The way to progress in racing, especially under serious budgetary constraints, is to start at the beginner's levels and progress from there, gaining experience and knowledge and familiarity with the sport. You can only race the bikes you have. Buell have???? Some folks seem to think that producing a competitive repli-racer or even a platform from which to create one is a trivial matter. Buell did so???? That is an absurdly ridiculous misconception So why oh why would you imply otherwise? That is the disappointment of Buell racing. THEY DON'T RACE Rocket | ||
| Court |
Buell will be one of the top names in motorcycling racing over the next 5 years. |
