| Author | Message | ||
     Davegess |
Details here http://www.pegasusracingnews.com/ | ||
| Trojan |
Well doen to Peter and the boys at Macadam  | ||
| Diablobrian |
Nice! Great write up too! Almost like I was there. | ||
| Imonabuss |
This is really cool. I am so impressed by this success; the French have risen to a whole new place in my estimation. They don't whine and moan about disadvantages or fairness or proper support or whatever, they just get down and do it. 1st and 2nd in a field with 1098s, etc. Wow. | ||
| Smoke |
AWESOME!!!!!!!!! tim | ||
| Davegess |
So much for all the naysayers who have claimed the XBRR program was done! | ||
| Rocketman |
I think you'll find if you care to look, there were no 1098's in the field. The race report is misleading, to say the least, as the 1098's were running in the French National Super Bike race, not the French Pro Twins race. My understanding is, Ducati 998's and 999's race at the 1000cc limit, but Buell can run at and upto 1450cc. Rocket | ||
| Court |
Ahhhhh...their visors fogged. Damn I hate when that happens. | ||
| Davegess |
Yeah, I don't think the 1200 Ducati he referd to was a 1098 but some sort of special. I will try and find out what the rules are. Still 999's, 998,s and RSV Aprilla's are not exactly slow. Nobody EVER said the XBRR was a superbike. | ||
| Davegess |
I am wrong. there are 5 1098 Ducati's listed in last weeks race, a 998R, two 999R, sonething listed as a Ducati Hybred entered by th eVoxan club of France, 9 RSV etc. I t may be a twins race but it seems to be top notch stuff. I know it is not British Superbike but then Buell never said it was building a superbike did it? | ||
| Rocketman |
Dave, please show the race entry list. My info is there are no 1098's in the Pro Twins race, and the 998's and 999's are little modified for racing, production versions. Not ex Super Bikes or anywhere near. My information is the 1200 Ducati is a two valve air cooled motor. Another source of information tells me the XBRR is a full on race bike, and the 1450cc Buell is a heavily race modified XB12R, and the advantage is in the Buells favour. Rocket | ||
| Jimidan |
Davegess sez: So much for all the naysayers who have claimed the XBRR program was done! I don't recall the naysayers saying that the XBRR was done... just done in FX (the class for which it was specifically designed...and large sums of dinaro was spent in the development). So far, that certainly would appear to be the case. Am I wrong? I am not a naysayer, just an observer and Buell fan. Don't shoot me. jimidan Forced to Get His Fix in CCS | ||
| Davegess |
Rocket "ye of little faith" http://www.pegasusracingnews.com/details.php?=1000 30 I am going to find out the rules but this is what the result sheet says. Jim, two RR ran in the Daytona 200. Bike is still eligable in the class. Not Buell's fault that none of the owners are racing in the AMA races after that. Program is still alive and well and winning races. There never was a "factory" FX race team in the sense that Honda has one. | ||
| Court |
Isn't modifying your bike and doing everything you can within the rules to gain advantage pretty much the definition of racing? So a Buell race team went racing with a race Buell? What the hell were they thinking? | ||
| Bison |
Bison Racing and Walt Sipp #221 will be doing more FX racing this year starting with Road America. ref | ||
| Blake |
Three races. Three Buell XBRR victories over Ducati and Aprilia racers. Woohoo! http://www.challenge-protwin.com/7/claptw.htm | ||
| Snowscum |
3 Louis-Luc MAÏSTO 6 Ducati 1098 10 Pascal CHRETIEN 20 Ducati 1098 17 Jérémie RASTING 7 Ducati 1098 Looks there were 3 of them Rocket.... | ||
| Rocketman |
Thank you Dave, for posting the results. I'm still in the camp of 'little faith'. There is no 1098 race version, yet. Nor is the 1098 homologation (street) available yet. So a 1098 beats a 998R is remarkable. A 1098 in 3rd place, beating a 998R and a 998, and a Ducati Hybrid, in that order, and the rest of the field made up almost entirely of Ducati's and the odd Aprilia, suggests that the 2 valve air cooled big bore Buells beat the entire field of well proven race bikes simply because they have too much of a capacity advantage. Colour me 'ye of little faith'. I prefer racing where the disparity doesn't make for clear advantaged winners. Rocket | ||
| Imonabuss |
Rocket, there are no words to describe your absurdity. The XBRR is a complete pathetic POS in your opinion until it wins, and then it has an unfair advantage? | ||
| Rocketman |
Oh I wouldn't say that. Until it wins in a class where it belongs is what you meant to say. Rocket | ||
| Davegess |
Rocket, I posted a short note about this class on the other thread but I think this is run what you brung class for twins up to 2000cc, anybody can build anything they want. Sounds like buell is the best weapon at this time. | ||
| Blake |
But--please correct me if I'm mistaken--you support allowing Ducati to field a 1200cc machine against 1000cc IL4s in WSB? Regardless, what if any displacement advantage would you view as fair for an air-cooled pushrod twin with two valves/cyl and a rev limit of just 8500 rpm versus 1100cc, liquid cooled, OHC twin with four valves/cyl and a rev limits upwards of 10,000 rpm? | ||
| Sarodude |
Blake- I'm not arguing for Rocket - BUT...... The rev limit isn't some sort of race enforceable parameter unless they go to spec engine management. In the real world, dynamic displacement is a neat idea worthy of consideration. In racing, a severe RPM limitation is just that - a handicap of a given engine design. So let's explore a couple of other angles: 1) What if an endurance race was run where the desmo Ducs or anything without self adjusting valvetrain was handicapped because of an extended pit stop to adjust valves? Would it be ok to give them a displacement advantage or a 4.5 minute head start or something? 2) This stuff would all be moot if we all just forgot about teching stuff based on engine internals. I say things should go by a spec'd fuel tank capacity. Engine configuration (whether it be some crazy 350cc mondo turbo or a big, lazy twin) could be anything. Power output over the race would be a simple function of a spec fuel at a spec volume / weight / whatever. Yeah, yeah... I've been in series with spec tires, spec fuels, spec engines, chassis, bodywork...... There are pitfalls. I'm just of the opinion that race classes as they currently exist simply prove (mechanically) who makes the most appropriate engine for a fairly narrow set of circumstances - and often a nearly formulaic result (ie - Japan, Inc's 600cc inline fours). Seriously... Some guys in my class trying to save a few bucks would put Yamaha YZ 125 pistons in their Honda CR 125. They would BOLT IN. As long as we measure / restrict design parameters of an engine to regulate racing, these sorts of arguments will continue. A form of regulation should exist. The post race dyno - really not a big fan. It is an interesting step, though. -Saro | ||
| Rocketman |
Buell have no right to be building an underdog given their access to resources. To cheer a somewhat crestfallen racing motorcycle for winning in some lowly French national series is no different than cheering Mike Tyson on for winning a pub brawl. Get real. Quit pissing around with a dumb air cooled pushrod poke trying to prove a point only a handful will thank you for, and build an up to date racing motorcycle the 21st century dictates. Rocket | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Ducati says : We need +200cc for our V2 to fight the IL4s in WSBK. Most Ducati fans think this is fair. I DON'T, and I am a Ducati fan. Buell says : We need +200cc for our air-cooled, 2valve pushrod V2 to fight the Ducatis. So if it is OK with the certain rules in France, what is the problem? If Ducati gets +200cc in WSBK and starts winning, then that will be OK and fair to the IL4s? But on the other hand Buell has +200cc over the Ducati, and their wins is cheating? NO WAY ! For me it is simple.....Unless the classes are based on engine capacity ,there will be arguments. | ||
| Reepicheep |
We had this argument a lot of times Vagelis... So if Buell brought a sophisticated 1000cc two stroke to the race (which makes nearly twice as much peak power as a four stroke), should they be able to race with equal displacement? How about a supercharged or turbo charged 1000cc motor? How about a turbine motor that has 1000cc of internal volume, but spins at 30,000 rpm? I'm not even sure what displacement means on a turbine motor. The point is only that "displacement only" is a fairly stupid way to "group" different types of engines if you want to try and have many that will make similar power. Max power is generally limited by max RPM. Max RPM is typically limited by max valve speed, or max "bouncing mass", or max piston velocity relative to the cylinder wall. So a 4 cylinder motor will always have an RPM (and therefore power) advantage over a 2 cylinder motor. 4 smaller pistons weigh less mass then two bigger ones, will have to move over a shorter distance with each engine revolution (less piston speed). So a 4 *does* have an inherit advantage for HP per CC of displacement. So to decide a racing class will be arbitrarily displacement limited is basically saying (in todays world anyway) that you want a racing class arbitrarily limited to inline fours. Thats fine if thats what you want, but some of us find it fairly tedious. | ||
| Court |
I miss the 8 cylinder 50cc Honda . . . cute sound turning at 27,000 RPM. | ||
| Rocketman |
I miss the 8 cylinder 50cc Honda Oh, no need to worry. I might be able to help you there. Rocket | ||
| Blake |
Bill, You present a great case addressing issues related to diversity of engine configurations in motorcycle racing. Just one clarification... The twin cylinder bikes can indeed be made to rev very high just like the four cylinder engines while remaining within limits of piston speed and valvetrain mechanical and dynamic loading constraints, but to do so they must utilize the same wildly oversquare bore to stroke ratio as the four cylinder machines (V-Fours too). When the bore gets very large like it would for a two cylinder engine in comparison to a four cylinder configuration, the ability of even a four valve head to optimally pass the intake charge to the combustion chamber becomes a limiting factor. Think of it as a case of a 16 valve engine competing against an 8-valve engine. More valves, even though they are smaller, means more efficient filling of combustion chambers with the fuel/air charge and thus a higher useful engine speed, thus more HP/cc. | ||
| M2nc |
The Race XBRR and Street 1098 make about the same horsepower (Yes advertised they don't, but I am getting my information from a good source). The weight of the two bikes are close too. So if the Buell consistently beats the Ducati then we are forgetting one major factor. THE RIDER and his team! Way to go Macadam |
