| Author | Message | ||
     M2nc |
So I guess no one can give me a reference where the XBRR has been beaten by another twin? I mean I understand there are six-figure Super-Ducatis out there that should be able to put out better lap times, and that should give them the advantage, but the Ducatis in the same price range as the XBRR, have they beat an XBRR? In reality, I have heard the initial HP rating were really RWHP, which put the HP of the XBRR about the same as the 1098. So I can see how the XBRR can out run them on the track. The same with the Aprilia, at 150 crank HP they are out gunned by the modified HD V-2. So I guess to remove the excuses, Buell needs to put out a street legal XBRR. Now that would be a kick in the pants. | ||
| Rocketman |
So now we get to bench race thirty thousand dollars? Rocket | ||
| Thepup |
Or M2nc how about Ducati and Aprilia modifying their engines as much as the XBRR's engine is modified. | ||
| Jscott |
"So I guess no one can give me a reference where the XBRR has been beaten by another twin?" 2007 Daytona 200. Although hardly a stellar result for either brand, Larry Pegram's Ducati finishes ahead of Walt Sipp's XBRR. | ||
| Rocketman |
Seeing as someone one stared my last little bit of humour, think about this when it comes to thirty thousand bucks. A 999R is a road legal motorcycle. Forgetting it is a stock 999 Biposto with some high end parts fitted to make it handle even better, and forgetting the 999R engine has more 'exotic' components inside it, different heads, cams, pistons, titanium rods etc etc, than a stock 999, one has to wonder how Buell can sell their cheaper to manufacture machine in the US for similar money to a 999R. It's even more of a remarkable feat when one considers the Ducati has passed Euro Type 2 approval. Meets legislation for road use in many countries, such as UK Construction and Use requirements. Passed regulatory safety tests, etc etc. All of which are cost into the development and manufacture of the final product. The XBRR hasn't. If the 999R is regarded as expensive in the US, the remarkable feat here is how Buell has manage to rip off over 50 customers with their extortionate price of what is essentially a racing folly which cost nowhere near the price of a 999R to produce. But hey, this isn't about money right? It's about patriotism. Ooops sorry, I meant passion. Rocket | ||
| José_quiñones |
"So I guess no one can give me a reference where the XBRR has been beaten by another twin?" Yes, look at the results from AHRMA at Daytona this year. | ||
| José_quiñones |
In fact here's the summary for race wins for Twins at Daytona 2007 In Alphabetical order; Aprilia: MotoSt BUELL SST Class http://www.aprilia.com/magazine_dettaglio.asp?id=1 207 BMW: CCS ThunderBike EX & AM, AHRMA BOT Formula 2 (Monday), BOT Formula 2 (Tuesday), ASRA Superbike*** (won the race but was DQ’d for failing to go to post race tech) Buell: ASRA Thunderbike, MotoST BMW GST class, CCS Supertwins Expert http://buell.com/en_us/news_events/newsdetail.asp? news_id=1140 Ducati: CCS Lightweight SuperSport EX & AM, Lightweight Superbike EX & AM, Heavyweight Superbike Expert, Lightweight Grand Prix Amateur, AHRMA Sound of Thunder (Monday), BOT Formula 3 Honda: CCS Ultra Light Superbike (an old Hawk650), Supertwins AM Kawasaki: MotoST ST class MotoGuzzi: AHRMA BOT Formula 1 (Monday), BOT Formula 1 (Tuesday) http://www.motoguzzi.it/servonline/news/dettaglio. asp?indice=280 http://www.motoguzzi.it/servonline/news/dettaglio.asp?indice=282 NCR Ducati: Sound of Thunder (Tuesday) results/video at http://www.ncrcorse.com/us/ Suzuki: none Yamaha: none Congratulations to all the manufacturers, riders and teams. (Message edited by josé_quiñones on April 12, 2007) | ||
| Skully |
Sean, are you just bored? | ||
| Blake |
Sean, If Ducati only produced 50 999R's for track use only, what would be the difference? That Ducati can detune the 999R and muffle it to run on the street is no giant feat, but it does cost a LOT of money in the way of regulatory testing/certification. In some time, I'm sure Buell will be offering similar variants of its higher performance street machines. Probably a lot sooner than you ever imagined. Until then, we have the wonderful aftermarket to convert our street Buells into fire breathing racing machines, and for a heck of a lot less than $30K total investment. In the XBRR Buell wanted to produce a racing only version of the XB12R and so they did. That is a laudable positive thing. That an XBRR is capable of competing with and beating the likes of a race prepped Ducati 999R is nothing short of amazing. Jose, The question was specifically wrt the XBRR, not all Buells in all races. You surely know that the Buell XBRR racers intentionally and with honor (so as not to embarras the AHRMA field of competitors) pulled off the track before taking the checkered flag at some of those events you listed above for Daytona last year. Very poor form amigo. You are better than that. When a bike is DQ'd, it sure as heck didn't win the race or finish ahead of any non-DQ'd finisher. | ||
| Blake |
"how about Ducati and Aprilia modifying their engines as much as the XBRR's engine is modified." The issue of different allowable levels of engine modification is often a stubborn sticking point defying comprehension by those who are ignorant of racing tech rules aimed at creating parity among various configuration of competing racing machines. Many such folks seem capable of recognizing displacement as the only factor important to rating the relative parity among racing machines. It is unfortunate and a product of much marketing and hype by some manufacturers seeking to promote their own preferred configuration of motorcycle. So much so that this thinking has polluted much of motorcycle racing's top venues and organizations. Yet tech rules varied for different configurations of machines and that are intended to achieve racing class parity are very common among many different racing organizations. One need look no further than AMA Superbike or World Superbike where twin cylinder machines are afforded significant additional allowable engine modification versus their IL4 competition. The CCS rules are the gold standard of efforts to allow all configurations of machines to compete with optimum parity. Those that understand how racing technical rules work, and what they are intended to achieve are not baffled by the different technical rules for various engine configurations. Yet for those who seek to belittle Buell motorcycles and their achievements on the race track, ignorance truly is bliss. | ||
| José_quiñones |
Blake The results I linked to are from March 2007, not 2006. Check the link, there were at least two XBRR's entered in the AHRMA races at the speedway this year. Are you saying they pulled out of the race this year too? The second post was just a summary of all the twins that won races during the Daytona 2007 MotoST/CCS/ASRA/AHRMA races. You are correct no XBRR's won any of these events. It was noteworthy because so many different manufacturers of V-Twins won at least one race at Daytona this year, making the PR people happy. (Message edited by josé_quiñones on April 12, 2007) | ||
| Rocketman |
If Ducati only produced 50 999R's for track use only, what would be the difference? They'd be sought by collectors the world over, and cost as much as a house. Rocket | ||
| M2nc |
Sean, Would you like some cheese with that whine? Just kidding, I love these posts. Like you said bench racing. It's the fantasy football equivalent for motorcycle racing. Jose' thanks for the links. Man I wish they would televise those races, especially those vintage bikes. Not to throw a monkey wrench into it, but didn't AHRMA require the XBRR to detune. It's a weight to horsepower ratio right? So the AHRMA XBRR is a watered down version, true? The full strength version was the one that Blake said was asked to pull off because it was too fast for the field and I agreed it should have. I like AHRMA because the HP to Weight requirement ensures that people on all types of bikes can race together. That is why I find WSB, SS, SB, boring. If they want to make FX series work, they need to do the same. I would love to see Buells, Moto Guzzi, BMW, Aprilias, Ducatis, Hondas, Yamaha, Kawazakis, Suzukis, KTM all racing in the same series at the same time. That would be a lot of fun to watch. Oh outside of Nicky Hayden, I pull for the Ducatis in MotoGP. They are the old ball underdog and I always pull that. | ||
| José_quiñones |
Carlos The AHRMA Battle of the Twins Formula 1 class does not have any restrictions (from their website): # Formula 1 Twins: No displacement limits. Engine modifications are unlimited, except on water-cooled 4-valve twins over 900cc. Here are the results of that race for those who did not bother to click on the link: March 5th BOT Formula 1 1. Gianfranco Guareschi, 07 Moto Guzzi; 2. Valter Bartolini, 07 Ducati NCR Millona; 3. Larry Pegram, 07 Ducati NCR; 4. Yoshio Kasai, 00 Ducati 996 S; 5. Mark Hatten, Ducati; 6. Nick Ienatsch, 07 Ducati NCR; 7. Kazuya Tanaka, 04 Ducati 999S; 8. Walt Sipp, 07 BUELL; 9. Tim Keane, 00 Bimota SB8R; 10. Pete Strunk, 06 Buell XBRR; 11. Conrad Urbanowski, 99 Ducati; 12. Richard Sullivan, 01 Suzuki SV; 13. Art Yarosh, 98 Ducati 900; March 6th BOT Formula 1 1. Gianfranco Guareschi, 07 Moto Guzzi; 2. Valter Bartolini, 07 Ducati NCR Millona; 3. Dario Marchetti, ; 4. Yoshio Kasai, 00 Ducati 996 S; 5. Walt Sipp, 07 BUELL; 6. Larry Pegram, 07 Ducati NCR; 7. Nick Ienatsch, 07 Ducati NCR; 8. Mark Hatten, Ducati; 9. Kazuya Tanaka, 04 Ducati 999S; 10. Tim Keane, 00 Bimota SB8R; 11. Richard Sullivan, 01 Suzuki SV; 12. Pete Strunk, 06 Buell XBRR; 13. Conrad Urbanowski, 99 Ducati; 14. Art Yarosh, 98 Ducati 900; AHRMA, like CCS and MotoST, is best seen live. TV would do wonders for their exposure. You guys going to the MotoST race at VIR in two weeks (April 29th) | ||
| Blake |
Jose, It's pretty obvious that... I no read good.  Sorry for misreading your post. You are correct. Happily, I was proved right too; you are better than that.  | ||
| Jimidan |
If the 999R is regarded as expensive in the US, the remarkable feat here is how Buell has manage to rip off over 50 customers with their extortionate price of what is essentially a racing folly which cost nowhere near the price of a 999R to produce. But hey, this isn't about money right? It's about patriotism. Ooops sorry, I meant passion. Rocket Rocket called the XBRR a nappy-headed ho.  } | ||
| Jackbequick |
Sean just comes here to make snide remarks about and spit on the things he does not like. Things like America, Americans, American racers, Harley-Davidson, Buell, polite conversation, the simple joys of being a fan, etc. Its so sad. He lives in a nation that has lost its industrial might and doesn't make much of anything worth owning or riding. That has scattered his loyalties all over the globe. But it also brought a crushing load of guilt with it. He has a hard time not lashing out irrationally at people that are happier and able to find some joy from things within their national confines. All this is said lightly and meant in jest of course, I hereby decree that nothing I have said is open to debate. :>  Jack | ||
| Thunderbox |
Jsscot said "So I guess no one can give me a reference where the XBRR has been beaten by another twin? 2007 Daytona 200. Although hardly a stellar result for either brand, Larry Pegram's Ducati finishes ahead of Walt Sipp's XBRR." Just for your information the Buell that ran at daytona was not an XBRR it was a XB12R which is a street bike. Just the old Buell mill that you get with your daily rider. I don't know who started the rumour that it was an XBRR that finished 46 it was just a normal Buell. 46 is pretty dame good, so as far as we are concerned no twin has yet beaten an XBRR that has finished a race. Some people don't know how to read, obviously. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Comparing the XBRR to 999, and Buell to Ducati has no meaning. Ducati is one of the oldest motorcycle companies with big racing history. Their motorcycles are evolved by many years of racing. Buell is a new company, that is starting to make its first racing effords. I think that at the level of racing the XBRR is taking part this year, the major factor for winning is the rider. For example, Moto Guzzi's Guareschi is a very good rider that races Guzzi bikes for many years. He is also the development rider for Moto Guzzi. So he knows these bikes very well, and can use the bike's strength to 100%. He won, but that does NOT mean the his Guzzi is better than a 999, or Guzzi is superior to Ducati. Maybe McWilliams could win these races for Buell. Would that make the XBRR better than a WSBK 999F07? I do not think so! For me, I know this : BUELL winning any race is GOOD NEWS for me, and makes me proud owning an XB12R. | ||
| Bison |
Thunderbox Don't wish to be corrective but the bike that Walt finished on was a XBRR no matter what it was listed as. I was the primary sponsor of this effort and am quite proud of our finish considering Walt being highsided by another rider, then getting it back to our pit, losing 7 laps while we replaced the right side controls and then riding the same lap times for the remainder of the race in a world of hurt. regards ref | ||
| Jscott |
"Just for your information the Buell that ran at daytona was not an XBRR it was a XB12R which is a street bike. Just the old Buell mill that you get with your daily rider. I don't know who started the rumour that it was an XBRR that finished 46 it was just a normal Buell. 46 is pretty dame good, so as far as we are concerned no twin has yet beaten an XBRR that has finished a race. Some people don't know how to read, obviously." To my knowledge Walt's 200 bike was indeed an XBRR. Did you do some minor research on the AMA website that insist on listing the XBRR as an XB12R and come here to trump me? Better luck next time. Take your own advice and reread José's post for who on what. Thanks Bison for the clarification. See Thunderbox, Bison started that rumor. (Message edited by JScott on April 13, 2007) | ||
| Jimidan |
Thunderbox makes a racket: Just for your information the Buell that ran at daytona was not an XBRR it was a XB12R which is a street bike. Just the old Buell mill that you get with your daily rider. I don't know who started the rumour that it was an XBRR that finished 46 it was just a normal Buell. 46 is pretty dame good, so as far as we are concerned no twin has yet beaten an XBRR that has finished a race. Some people don't know how to read, obviously. Say what? You are right, there was not a single Buell XBRR in the 200 field...there were two of them. I didn't read it anywhere either...I was there. Walt Sipp was on one and a Canadian fellow named Darren James was on the other, riding for Deeley HD. James inadvertently took Sipp out in turn one by crossing in front of him, causing him to high side. But Walt, being the tough guy he is, shook it off, limped the bike back to the pits where the crack team patched it up enough to finish the race. At the end of the race, there were only 6 bikes lapping faster than Walt. Not bad at all considering that his crew had to help him off of the bike. James went out with a mechanical problem, after the Deeley bike had run very well all week long at the AHRMA races and during the AMA FX practice and qualifying. I was there for the whole thing, so if I am wrong it is because I don't know how to see. Might I suggest that you get your facts straight before you start blasting someone about not being able to read! Poor form. | ||
| Court |
>>>am quite proud of our finish I am too! Man . . WHAT A TROOPER! | ||
| Court |
Some people don't know how to read, obviously. Obviously. | ||
| M2nc |
You guys going to the MotoST race at VIR in two weeks (April 29th) Man, goes to show you how removed I am from racing. I did not know they were coming so close. I can not commit because I have some projects to do, but if I get them done before then, I may try to make it. Is MotoST race more like Formula USA or Formula Extreme (AMA). I had a lot more fun at the last Formula USA race. You were able to walk everywhere and it cost like $25-$40. I'll have to check out the website and see what you get for the price of admission. >>>am quite proud of our finish I am too! Me three! | ||
| Crusty |
...am quite proud of our finish... A lot of us are. You guys rock! | ||
| Rocketman |
Jack, I voted your post 5 stars - for getting me so utterly right Rocket | ||
| Trojan |
Its so sad. He lives in a nation that has lost its industrial might and doesn't make much of anything worth owning or riding Apart, of course, from manufacturing the majority of Formula one cars & housing the teams, Indycar chassis & engine manufacturing, MotoGP teams, WSB teams and pretty much every top level motorsport team in the world based in Britain. Then there is Triumph motorcycles, a company actually younger than Buell but selling more bikes last year than Buell could dream of. Then of course there is Aston Martin, Bentley, Jaguar, Rolls Royce (cars and aero engines)...the list goes on. Unfortunately a large proportion of these companies (Triumph excepted) are now foreign owned, but that is just down to bad financial management and lack of investment in the past and not any lack of industrial and manufacturing skills. When it comes to manufacturing the best in the world, Britain is still way up there with the best of them, and one of the main reasons that Kenny Roberts amongst others chooses to base his business here I am racking my brain here for the last time a US built bike/car competed at the very top level of world motorsport of any kind, but for the life of me can't think of any since Dan Gurney's Eagle car back in the '60's.  | ||
| Trojan |
.....Harris Performance, Metmachex, Spondon Engineering, TVR (Just for Rocket) PFM brakes..........What have the Romans ever done for us..... | ||
| Rocketman |
I wasn't going to get into that Matt, but what the hell. Reynard, McLaren, Noble Automotive Ltd, Radical Spotscars, Ultima Sports Ltd, Lotus, Bentley, Morgan, Bristol, Ginetta, AC Cars Ltd, Caterham Cars, Land Rover, Westfield Sportscars, Marcos Engineering Ltd, Cosworth, Ricardo Engineering, Ilmor Engineering. Sorry if I missed any. Jack, here's a tip just for you. Google every name in my above list, and eat your words. Everyone of these automotive manufacturers are still in business, in the UK, and alive and kicking. The big names speak for themselves, but being an American, Jack, you've probably never heard of Ultima. Ultima hold several world records for performance. They use a Chevy motor Bristol, sixty years on, are still hand building luxury cars. AC, who everyone knows from the Cobra, are still in business. The automotive industry is truly alive in the UK. You just have to look a little harder to see it. Especially so if you're from foreign shores. So it would be more accurate to say "everything is worth owning or riding (driving)" because we don't seem to make much 'run of the mill' stuff anymore. Just high performance quality you won't find the likes of grouped together anywhere else in the world. Rocket |
