| Author | Message | ||
     Jscott |
"Your premise that "there is no cohesive effort to build further upon last year's learning season" is inaccurate and frankly ridiculous. Where do you come up with such silliness?" Blake I don't know how you can even type with those PomPoms permanetly fused to your hands. Perhaps you can enlighten us all as to how someone can develop a team in the AMA with the truincy record of Buell. As for all the other racing organization here and elsewhere in the world, I wish the Buell racers the best of luck, but this thread is dedicated to the AMA. | ||
| Jscott |
Also Blake I'd like to know what you think of the AMA creating a class that Buell can participate with liberal modification rules, while taking heat from other manufacturers, allowing Erik to be part of a rules making board, and then for Buell not to actively promote and consistently participate in that class past Daytona. I think fans will get tired of 2 600cc classes soon enough and then the door for Buell and other manufactures may be shut once again in the AMA. (Message edited by JScott on November 30, 2006) | ||
| Blake |
All are free to "think" as they wish. There is no law against rampant public display of ignorance. I'd much rather have pompoms fused to my hands than my head jammed into my sigmoid flexure. | ||
| Blake |
I applaude the AMA for writing class rules to allow different types of machines into FX. I wish they would do the same for the other classes as well. I also applaud the AMA for inviting the only American sport bike manufacturer into the fold of AMA Pro Racing consultants. Surely you know what the first "A" in "AMA" stands for. My biggest irritation with the AMA Superbike series is the way that Japan Inc has apparently orchestrated their factory team efforts to divvy up and cherry-pick the four AMA Pro Racing road racing classes. I totally dig the fact that in its rookie year, Buell XBRR privateers were on occasion able to get in there and mix it up head to head with the other privateer FX teams. As to your point about Buell not supporting the series, you need a history lesson. Buell supported well the old AMA Pro Thunder series. That did not disuade AMA Pro Racing from screwing it up entirely and then cancelling it. | ||
| Jscott |
I enjoy your elitist ramblings and your cute synonyms. (Message edited by JScott on November 30, 2006) | ||
| Jscott |
Pro Thunder is indeed history and how did the AMA screw it up? I'm talking about Buell declining to participate in the present FX class. "There is no law against rampant public display of ignorance." There is no law against propaganda either, so feel free to continue. | ||
| M1combat |
I'm sorry... I agree with JScott on at least one point... The AMA is the domain of BMC and HD. Buell needs money to run FX (and you know that if HD gave it to them they would race). I do agree that it's better for Buell to spend Buell money to race AMA so that the money doesn't get yanked like it did with the VR. That's an issue that left a bad taste in a lot of mouths for sure. That said... The other series are not on TV. No one knows about them. they aren't a benefit for BUELL. I applaud everyones efforts in those championships for sure, but Buell needs to be in FX. I don't think for one second that Buell doesn't know that. They do and I'd bet that they're about as heart broken to know that as I am. I AM dissapointed. I want to see Buell in FX. Even if it DOES take an HD subsidy. A company like Buell needs to race. Maybe I just haven't been able to fully understand BMC? Maybe I'm wrong. BMC has not lost my respect. I still believe that they make a brilliant street bike. Can they race? I don't know. I think that may be my problem and the reason I've made this post... I WANT TO KNOW. I know that a Buell can show itself to be a motorcycle that shouldn't be trifled with on the street. I've passed bikes with twice the HP on the track. Can Buell race at the AMA level? I don't know. There are a lot of people who are sure that the answer is no. The rest of us don't know. That's not a good situation. I don't write this to be a naysayer. I write it because I know damn well that Erik wants to race and the money isn't there right now (hopefully they're using it to make another generation of streetbike that will sell well). You do need to pave the road before you race on it... Anyway... Keep plugging along Erik, but even the most cheery of "cheer leader" has a certain amount of patience. I really want to see what you've got for us for '08. I've only got one streetbike right now and I wouldn't mind in the least if the second was another Buell. | ||
| Coolice |
Set your vcr,dvd recorder for Dec 17th SPEEDtv will have the 8 hour MotoST race highlights. This new series has Buell as a sponsor, all twins. The upcoming season should see more Buell involvement, and this series has strong support through sponsors. Just check their website www.moto-st.com And a Buell did podium  | ||
| Blake |
No need to apologize for good debate. I do have a rebuttal though. You knew that, right? "The AMA is the domain of BMC" That flies in the face of the XBRR's very reason for being as stated clearly by Buell, to provide an inexpensive factory supported competitive racing machine for privateers. Read the BMC press intro for the XBRR and show me where Buell ever hinted that the XBRR was intended to compete for a factory team championship in AMA FX. Not once, not ever have I seen BMC make any kind of statement along the lines that the XBRR was to be a championship contender for a factory racing effort in AMA FX. All who imagine that was BMC's plan are sorely mistaken. What you personally want to see and what the XBRR was intended to do are two entirely different things. Managing a factory AMA FX race team intending to compete for the championship is a full time job for an entire crew and then some. As far as I know, Buell has only ever enjoyed the efforts of one and one person only who was slated for full time racing support, and he spends virtually ALL of his time supporting privateer racing. So you folks are living on a different planet imagining that somehow the XBRR means that the AMA is now Buell's domain. Please pay attention to where Buell is putting up racing contingency money. Crawl... then walk... then run. Develop a plan and stick to it, maybe take a detour and have some fun once in a while. Push the envelope, learn a LOT. Get back on plan. Stay the course. The folks at BMC are likely busy engineering and testing and building upon what will be significant commercial success that will eventually support the factory professional level racing effort(s) that we all yearn to see. Until then, let's keep it real. The XBRR was intended to do exactly what it has been doing, winning against other privateer efforts and helping BMC develop its state of the art in American V-Twin sport bikes. Seriously, which one of you would have bet that an XBRR would be whipping up on an entire grid packed full of Superbikes in Europe no less and in its team's first race out of the box? Or would you have put money that an XBRR would take its first race win right out of the box, again going head-to-head against a world class Ducati 999 superbike and at Daytona no less? JScott, RRW has a good article about how the AMA Pro Racing folks screwed up Pro Thunder. Pretty sure it is in the archives here too, somewhere. Short story is that they brought in (made legal) the 748R which pushed the level of expense for Buell racers and other air-cooled twin racers through the roof, which killed the fan appeal and grid size. My point is that Buell need not fail to support or participate in a series for the AMA to totally disrespect them, the AMA has done that before even when Buell was a sponsor of the series. Let's hope they don't do it again. (Message edited by Blake on December 01, 2006) | ||
| Jscott |
"I agree with JScott on at least one point..." The planets are aligned.  So let me get this straight, Buell builds a purpose built race only bike to the spirit (edge) of the rules specifically for FX (according to all of those wonderfully worded PR releases), but yet had no real intention of actively participating in that class themselves and were going to leave it up to privateers with little to no Factory support to do it for them (does anyone remember how Hale faired last year?)? Makes sense to me! Oh wait, NO, it doesn't make any sense at all!  | ||
| José_quiñones |
To the casual fan that attended Daytona last year or saw the race on Speed, he saw four color matched Buells start the race, Buell/HD dignitaries on hand, everyone in matching uniforms, freaking UMBRELLA GIRLS, corporate suites, Jeremy being interviewed about the bike on SPEED, etc, basically making a big "We're BACK" splash. Yes, the bikes did not finish, but they put on a 'show', a FACTORY backed show to the casual fan. Anything less than the 'show' next March will be seen by the casual fan as a RETREAT, as in Buell KNOWS they can't compete at that level and is not even bothering to show up. "We're BACK, unless we get our asses kicked so will stay home this year" It's convenient for Buell to go the 'privateer/non factory' route, because if someone does well, Buell will be quick to fire up the PR spin machine hyping what a BUELL did at some race somewhere. If they do bad, "Hey, the dealer team screwed up, It wasn't the bike's fault" The AMA will have egg on their face, after enduring much grief from all sides for allowing the bike to race, then have the bikes not show up in 07 after the first 'show' in 06. The Speedway will also have egg on their face, as they can pull more strings in the AMA than even HD/Buell or Honda can and did pull their strings to 'help' the AMA decide to declare the bike legal. I'm sorry, but that's the way it will be perceived. (Message edited by josé_quiñones on December 01, 2006) | ||
| José_quiñones |
BTW, GET WELL SOON JEREMY!  | ||
| Elvis |
Considering Harley's history, I don't think it's rational to think they will ever fully support a Buell race effort (they see what people on forums like these say - anything short of a podium is a failure and hurts them more than it helps). That leaves it to Buell and/or dealers both of which have limited resources and can compete at the lower levels but are still a good chunk of change short of making the jump to AMA. I LOVE Blubak's idea. If it would ever be possible to get past all the egos involved and have the maybe the top 10 Buell dealers pool their resources and with some support from Buell, and maybe a few pennies from people like us (and maybe some money under the table from Harley) put two good riders on a set of XBRR's. If Buell can get a podium or two in FX, ALL dealers would benefit (and those that actually put the effort together would have prime bragging rights). I would think that 1/10 claim to a FX podium would be worth at least as much or more in marketing and bragging rights as a full CCS/ASRA championship. I don't know if it could ever happen, but something like that might be just the thing to bridge the gap between a true factory effort and dealer teams. I nominate Blake to start calling the dealers and Erik B. to start putting something like that together.  | ||
| Jimidan |
Cut and run. jimidan | ||
| Jimidan |
M1combat, I knew you would come around. jimidan | ||
| Jimidan |
The runup to Daytona was definitely a factory effort, by any standard. If the XBRR effort at Mid-Ohio was not a factory team, what is? I think that there were other races too that would technically qualify. In the public's mind, the whole year was a factory effort. AMA was shook to the core over allowing Buell XBRR's to participate, with several folks reportedly resigning over it. jimidan | ||
| Trojan |
The XBRR was designed and built specifically to compete in FX. Anything less can't be judged as a success I'm afraid. We are all Buell enthusiasts and lovers here and want them to succeed, so we obviously give the company more latitude than we would for any other factory, however if the same situation were happening at another manufacturer we would have been lampooning them by now. The XB-RR can win any amount of ASRA/CCS etc races, but it still would not have fulfilled its initial design brief, and that is to provide a competitive Formula Extreme class racer for the masses. If there are no factory supported Buells in the FX class next year then it will unfortunately be judged a failure by the majority of people outside of this board and by quite a few inside it. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Can my local Honda dealer buy all the parts being used by the Honda factory team? I'm pretty sure my local Buell Dealer can call up and get any part (or the whole bike) that Buell is running. I'm no expert, but it seems obvious to me the XBRR was a purpose built bike... and that purpose was to let private teams with significant factory support race in FX. I don't see anything having changed. If Buell wanted to field a factory team, they could have saved themselves a lot of time and trouble with all the privateers. | ||
| Rocketman |
Edited as my comments are not needed. Rocket (Message edited by rocketman on December 01, 2006) | ||
| Anonymous |
The XBRR was built to be a racing Buell in multiple classes around the world. It was not built to an initial design brief solely for FX, and never in any way to be a factory race team bike. If you had actually ever seen the business case and race proposal you would know this, but ignorance has the right to speak as well. The question is whether you listen to facts or ignorance. The AMA Daytona event was a great way to launch the bike, and the factory was involved in this as a launch activity. It was hoped that it could be an effective competitor there, and it got off to a start that showed promise. The only other factory supported effort was at Mid Ohio, where a bike with some special parts ran well enough to be 6th quickest Sunday morning practice. Everything ever written or spoken about the product by Buell indicated that it would not be a factory bike, and that it wiould be up to dealers to run where they chose. It was and is a reasonable choice for someone racing FX, but it is up to them to decide if they will do so. AMA FX is tough, and with more factory teams next year it will be tougher. Buell will continue to work on improving the bike and making refinements available for sale to the dealers/racers. Whether they run FX will be their choice. If some deem the XBRR a failure because the factory doesn't run a team, so be it. H-D does not have a checkbook for Buell to go racing on; we do it ourselves. We have choices to make as to how to invest our money and as to how we choose to race. 100,000 motorcycles into it, I think we are doing OK. And three years from now when the results of our choices fall into place, these choices will look quite good. My only regret is that there wasn't a fully funded XBRR team that could have had Jeremy under contract so he wouldn't have gotten hurt. I wish him the speediest of recoveries; he is a gentleman and a true talent. | ||
| Daves |
Reep, sure you can, just tell them you want the Zemke edition  Only be about 200,000.00 too! Can I ride it when you get it? I can sell you a XBRR though. Can I ride it? | ||
| Rocketman |
Can my local Honda dealer buy all the parts being used by the Honda factory team? Honda race kits are available. You could also call Ten Kate in Holland or Honda Racing Centre in the UK. They've got some serious shit for sale. Rocket | ||
| Daves |
Still isn't the same stuff the factory teams get. Or so I have heard. | ||
| Daves |
PS, I think Ducati being "saved" had more to do with financial hoodwinks than with racing. | ||
| Imonabuss |
The ignorance propagated really is disgusting. The AMA did not create a class for Buell, it created a class for something, anything, other than Japanese I-4's, since it already has three classes for these bikes. Little Buell is trying to participate, and led the way. Yeah, 100,000 motorcycles is great, and it is cool that Buell has built that many but Honda probably makes that many in a week, not 20 plus years. So put it in perspective for God's sake. Where is the outrage against Ducati and BMW and Triumph for not competing there? The hole is much bigger for BMW and Ducati than it is for Buell for Christ's sake! Anyone with an engineering brain can look at the rules and see that! | ||
| Rocketman |
I apologise for my comments. The post is edited. For what it's worth, I see it the way Jose sees it. Good luck Buell all the same. Rocket | ||
| Anonymous |
One more thing. Jscott, Blublak, Blake, etc. thank you for the positive sections of your comments. Believe me, Buell tried to the absolute limit of their financial capability to add some excitement to racing with the XBRR, even to AMA racing. If there was enough money, we might indeed have chosen a different path and built a factory team and bike, but that was never in the cards. The biggest shock to us was finding that raising sponsorship money for top teams was virtually impossible. Names like Jeremy McW, Crevier, Picotte and yet no one cared. I cannot understand why American companies have no interest in motorcycle roadracing, especially when you have a tiny underdog company taking a run at the import giants. But it is a fact. Kudos to the dealers who are out there racing for the love of the sport, whether it be ASRA or AMA or German Endurance. On the other hand, OCC announced they are building a 17 million dollar facility in California, however. Choppers rule in America, guys. Pose over performance all the way. T-shirts and do rags, not leather and Carbon fiber helmets, is the word today. Buell (the company and Erik) would love to have bikes competing for the win at Daytona, and maybe for wins in Valencia, Silverstone, etc. But, face it, the only way there will ever be world champion bikes out of the USA is by grinding it out one great production motorcycle after another until there is enough money to do it ourselves. And that time is not here yet. But it will come. | ||
| Slaughter |
There will always be names such as Hailwood who are racing "For the love of the sport" - doing it on their own nickel or dramatically underfunded. Anybody who thinks a $30K price tag on a fully-developed club racer is steep just hasn't tried sorting one out on their own. RRW did Toye's R1 and over a year spent more than $60K to get it sorted/developed. That was documented in the magazine. And everybody STILL talks about Toye racing a "stock" R1 - based on it's first time on the track - and ignoring the REALITY of their AMA season. (Message edited by slaughter on December 01, 2006) | ||
| Daves |
You mean it wasn't right off the showroom floor?  | ||
| Davegess |
I know everyone is disapointed that there is no Buell factory effort, heck I want one too, BUT you have to look at Buell's size. 10000 bike a year is TINY. I know it is hard to do but you have to forget about HD and all their money, they don't give money away, the stockholders would kill them. And while it is an effective marketing tool in some ways it is pretty hard to make the case that a dollar spent racing will yield more sales of Buell than a dollar spent training sales people. Bull has a very solid business plan, that is evident by the growth in sales and revenue but more importantly by making a profit. Unfortunatly we don't get to see the plan so we all like to say they have the wrong plan BUT the plan sure seems to be working. Buell has said from day one the the RR was for privateeers. They were able to put a package together to allow them to do a bit more than that last year which was very neat but it seems like that may not happen this year. Too bad but they are still making a privateer bike that is competitive and very good value for the money. |
