| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
Rocco, I'm not intending claim that an XBRR is faster than any current MotoGP machine. That would be ridiculous. My point was that had an XBRR run in the Estoril MotoGP race, it likely would have beaten the Ilmor and scored a point. To do this the XBRR would need to have lapped at an average of just better than 1:58.97 compared to the winner's average lap time of 1:38.88, a difference of over 20 seconds per lap or in terms of percentage, 83.1% as fast as the winner. RE: http://www.motogp.com/en/motogp/results/results_cont_44178_1.htm How would the XBRR measure up to that? We can find a pretty good estimate as follows. At Laguna seca Nicky hayden won the MotoGP race with an average lap time of 1:24.527. Jeremy McWilliams on the Warr's/Buell Racing XBRR in the Lagun Seca FX race lapped at an average of 1:32.066, just 7.539 seconds per lap slower than or 91.8% as fast as Nicky's winning MotoGP Honda. Seems pretty clear to me that an XBRR would have stood an excellent chance of finishing ahead of the Ilmor in the Estoril MotoGP race. Cool eh? Certainly then not so stunning for the Ilmor, but I am sure they will do much better in Valencia in two weeks. RE: http://www.motogp.com/en/motogp/results/results_cont_42598_1.htm and... http://www.amaproracing.com/prorace/raceres/rr/racres.asp?cls=fe&snct=p6255&type =f&rnum=1&year=2006 Jimi, Thanks amigo. You write good. Sometimes, me no write good. Need help explain idea.  Sean, Wow, I never would have imagined someone so enlightened in the world of performance motorcycles as you to stoop so low as to throw out the same old tired and completely inane point about the Buell engine displacement being greater. You and anyone who understand how engines work know full well that there are other major factors affecting engine performance than just displacement. Or are you planning to object to Ducati twins gaining a 200cc advantage over their IL4 competition in WSB? Now quit antagonizing me or else.  | ||
| Trojan |
"Had an XBRR run in the MotoGP race, it likely would have finished ahead of the Ilmor. Stunning? Not at all." Blake, I fear that you have drunk exclusively from the Buell cup for too long, and are in danger of losing the plot The XBRR would not have even got close to a qualifying time to allow it to compete in the same race as the Ilmor, nor is it likely that it would have lasted 24 laps in race conditions (it hasn't managed anywhere near that distance in a race yet). I am sure that if the Ilmor had been debuted in a club race it too would have won it's very first outing. I am not a Buell naysayer or harbinger of doom, but you are comparing cats to dogs here. This fable may be a better analagy: Erik Buell, experienced and respected motorcycle manufacturer and motorcycle racer, wakes up one day and decides that he would rather like to have a go at building a Formula 1 race car. He has no experience of anything like this in the past, and has never built a car of any description before, but undeterred assembles a team and sets to work. He decides that he will design and build not only the chassis but the complete engine and gearbox assembly in-house and with a budget of only a fraction of the competition. He does this despite the fact that some much bigger and more experienced companies have tried this and failed in the recent past. He also pays for the whole project himself, with no outside sponsorship. Less than 6 months later he has not only built himself a car, secured top Michelin tyres (a feat in itself!) and hired a GP winning driver, but has qualified for a Formula One race less than 4.5 seconds slower than Michael Schumacher, who's pole time just happens to be the fastest ever lap of Estoril. The Buell car then runs remarkably reliably during the race, even running ahead of some established formula one teams that have been racing for years. The only problem is a lengthy pit stop because due to a flat battery. The car though rejoins and continues racing, finishing it's first ever race in 15th position and with a World Championship point. Oh by the way, the car has an engine 20% smaller in capacity and with 25% less power than the opposition. Stunning? Oh yes. In fact stunning is an understatement for what Ilmor has achieved this weekend against huge odds. I hate to use the term awesome but it is probably a better description. | ||
| Jimidan |
The "huge odds" were slanted in the Ilmor's favor by the very unusual carnage resulting in DNF's. In just an average race, the Ilmor would have been way down in the standings...so would have the XBRR. But that wasn't the question that Blake so eloquently addressed with his comparison of Nicky's and Jeremy's times. That is really hard to refute, in spite of all of your nationalistic Brits-on-top mumbo jumbo. Hey, I am a lifelong supporter of the underdog, and would like nothing more than to see the Ilmor on the box in Spain...ahead of Vali who finished in 4th place...and Nicky had won...now that would be cool! I rode to Mid-Ohio in the rain to see Jeremy in hope that he could come in 5th...and if it hadn't been for some really bad luck, he probably would have. That would have been cool too. I will be there in Daytona to see him try it again. (Message edited by jimidan on October 17, 2006) (Message edited by jimidan on October 17, 2006) | ||
| Trojan |
I'm not supporting Ilmor just because they are British, in fact Mario Ilien is Swiss or Austrian or some such European person. The KR team is just as British as the Ilmor team and is based just up the road from them. I couldn't care less if they were a team of itinerant Bulgarian refugees (although the achievement would be even more spectacular if they were I suppose!) Putting a MOTOGP bike together is a world away from production bike racing, whether that is Superbike or FX. There is also no such thing as an average race, and to finish in the points you first have to finish. Something that Jeremy probably wishes he could do a little more often. It would of course be nice to see the XBRR finish in the top 5, but it hasn't happened yet has it? The XBRR is heavily based on a production bike that has been around for a few years in one form or another, and is built by a company that makes motorcycles for a living, so it should be good straight from the box. The Ilmor is a complete new ground up project. Every single engine component has been designed and manufactured from scratch in Ilmor's own factory just to fit that particular motorcycle. They have had very little testing time, and right up until the eve of the race had been plagued by some pretty serious engine management problems. These gremlins made the wheelie and traction control systems have a mind of their own, which makes life interesting on a 200bhp motorcycle. They held a crisis meeting on Friday evening and I think many other teams would have withdrawn from the race and gone home, but they stayed and were rewarded with a decent finish. I am a great fan of the XBRR project, but it is just not in the same ballpark in either technological or performance terms as a MotoGP machine. Ilmor have achieved something that KTM, Kenny Roberts, BMW and others have been unable to do and I think they deserve the credit for that. The huge odds that they have overcome to score points started long before the flag dropped, and i don't think you appraciate just what it takes to get a brand new bike to that level in such a short time. | ||
| Anonymous |
Trojan, Quit shooting off your ignorance. The XBRRs have finished and won quite a few times this year,including several endurance races. Yes, you had a poor year with your XB effort, but what does that have to do with the XBRR? Your negative comments show your frustration with yourself; don't take it out on those not deserving. You are one of the ones mocking the XBRR for being 3 seconds off the winning pace (we weren't at Mid Ohio), but laud these guys for being four seconds off in practice and four LAPS down at the end? And we are doing it with a freakin' 1950s motor! Go away and live in the glory of England, you know the classic "mainland fogged in, Sheene finishes 11th". | ||
| Jscott |
Well spoken Trojan. Again this ridiculous comparison is really apples and giraffes, but entertaining nonetheless. "Go away and live in the glory of England, you know the classic "mainland fogged in, Sheene finishes 11th"." Yeah, that sounds like a brilliant idea. Let's further alienate one of our greatest British Buell enthusiast. (Message edited by JScott on October 17, 2006) | ||
| José_quiñones |
I agree with Mr. Trojan and Dave, STUNNING is the right word for the progress they have made to date. Mr. Roberts probably is also a little jealous, does anybody know if he scored points with any of his various KR bikes in their first race? From the FIM rulebook
My only point is that had an XBRR been in the race at Estoril, it likely would have not qualified so it could never have finished ahead of the Ilmor. (Message edited by josé_quiñones on October 17, 2006) | ||
| Blake |
Matt, nor is it likely that it would have lasted 24 laps in race conditions (it hasn't managed anywhere near that distance in a race yet). I guess you forgot about the first and second place finishes garnered by XBRR racers at the endurance race this Summer at Road America. Correct, an XBRR is not even eligible to compete in MotoGP. Non-sequiter that. As presented in the other thread on this topic, you've been shown that at Laguna Seca Jezza and his Warr's XBRR were only ~7.5 seconds off the pace of the winning MotoGP bike. My only point is that had an XBRR been in the race at Estoril, it likely would have finished ahead of the Ilmor. Why are you so hard set against that idea? Why does that cause you such heartburn? I am truly bewildered by your reaction. The Ilmor may have won its first race if it was a CCS national; then again it may have spent time in the pits just like it did at Estoril and came in last finisher, ahead only of the DNFs. Last finisher is hardly what I would call a "decent finish"; I'd call it a "finish" and take it from there for what it is, a finish. An F1 car is infinitely more complex than a MotoGP bike. What Ilmor has done is impressive for sure, no argument there. I don't know their budget. I doubt it was tiny. Pretty sure they leveraged heavily their vast F1 expertise, hardly a scenario equivalent to Erik Buell going out and building an F1 car on his own. Consider also that all Ilmor does is racing; that's it; that is their business. They had no other job to distract them or make demands upon their time. Surely you can see the difference between that and the situation at Buell. FYI: Erik Buell already built his own F1 machine. It is called the RW750 and he did it in rustic conditions, virtually alone and on a shoestring budget. I doubt that the Ilmor folks mortgaged their home to support their MotoGP effort. But we can agree to disagree. You think the Ilmor performance was "stunning"; I think it was "impressive." I've shown how an XBRR would likely have finished ahead of the Ilmor at Estoril; you cannot fathom such blasphemy. Life goes on. Go Nicky!!! (Message edited by blake on October 17, 2006) | ||
| Trojan |
Trojan, Quit shooting off your ignorance. The XBRRs have finished and won quite a few times this year,including several endurance races. Yes, you had a poor year with your XB effort, but what does that have to do with the XBRR? Your negative comments show your frustration with yourself; don't take it out on those not deserving. You are one of the ones mocking the XBRR for being 3 seconds off the winning pace (we weren't at Mid Ohio), but laud these guys for being four seconds off in practice and four LAPS down at the end? And we are doing it with a freakin' 1950s motor! Go away and live in the glory of England, you know the classic "mainland fogged in, Sheene finishes 11th". Excuse my French, but what utter Bollocks you do speak!! Has Jeremy finished a 28 lap race?...No he hasn't. Have I mocked the XBRR for being off the pace?...No I haven't. It matters not what Jeremy's pace was at Mid Ohio because he failed to start the race let alone score points. I support the XBRR and Buell racing far more than many so called Buell supporters on this board, to the extent that I actually put our own money and time into running a team. What I have done is to state fact. If you don't like like it then boo hoo. The XBRR was built specifically as an FX racer, and it is under that microscope that it should be judged, in the same way the Ilmor should be judged against MotoGP bikes and not FX ones. If it wasn't for our 'poor year' as you seem to think it has been, there would not have been ANY Buell racing in the UK this year, period. Buell UK are quick enough to want to feature our successes on their web site aren't they? I happen to think that we have had quite a good year, our problems have been pretty easy to sort and due mainly to the bike being new and untested, and to the fact that we are running on a budget that wouldn't keep you in team shirts. We are currently in 10th place in a national championship, and hopefully can improve that to 7th or 8th at the final round this coming weekend, even though we have missed 3 rounds completely and failed to score in one other. We have scored one podium and numerous 4th & 5th places this year. If Jeremy or any of the other FX Buell teams could say the same then I think even they would call that a good year. We have also organised and administered the entire UK Thunderbike series just so that Buells would have somewhere to race in the UK this year. So far we have had NO SUPPORT in this from Buell UK or from one single UK dealership and it has been done at OUR expense. If you would like to do this instead just say the word and we'll stand aside and let you get on with it. Oh by the way, if you don't like British riders I wouldn't mention it to Jeremy or Warr's as it might just upset them too. | ||
| Trojan |
Blake, I am not hard set against the idea that an XBRR would have finished ahead of the Ilmor. What I am set against is that the two are just not comparable. We could just as well say that a Royal Enfield 350 could finish a GP if given long enough (and floodlights!). The argument is meaningless. My whole point (and one that seems to have been hijacked by the Anonymonster) is that the Ilmor team have put together a race bike with their own engine in almost record time and scored points at their first race. It doesn't matter how many people crashed out of the race. It doesn't matter if any other bike could have theoretically beaten the Ilmor to the flag or how many other races any other bike has won. The achievement is there for all to see, and is one that evaded some much bigger players in the past. | ||
| Glitch |
I can't believe what I'm reading here. This is utter nonsense. First off y'all have to realize (as I'm sure most of you do) I'm an avid Bueller, hell, I even bring the Kool Aide some times. But to say the Ilmor is less than impressive is crazy. The first time out with one bike to even finish is amazing to me, and to be in the running with a 100cc disadvantage as well! The XBRR is a great bike, and I'm sure next year we'll see it do even better than this year, but it's like apples and giraffes to compare the two. If you really feel the need to compare the two, you'll have to compare them on their maiden races, is that what y'all want? I say good on Ilmor! Good on Mr. Buell as well! But since Mr. Buell isn't into the MotoGP thing, I'll be pulling for the Ilmor, to come in behind Nicky. Y'all step back and re-read this thread, and if you're still saying Ilmor is lacking for some reason, and still trying to compare any Buell to any MotoGP....well then I guess y'all are just going to I guess. My 2¢ | ||
| Eboos |
I did a bit of looking at this year's Laguna Seca times, and I found that the slowest motogp rider's (Cardoso) fastest lap was 1:26.098. The fastest AMA Superbike rider (Tommy Hayden) ran a 1:26.100. The fastest motogp rider's (Pedrosa) fastest lap time was 123.333. This is less then 3 seconds from the slowest, and the fastest superbike. So by these numbers, if the XBRR can run with the fastest superbikes, they still will be slower then the slowest motogp bikes. Of course this is all meaningless, the XBRR is nither a superbike or a gp bike. However, the fastest Formula Extreme bike (Bostrom) ran a 1:27.797, and McWilliams fastest time was 1:30.591. Let's round out the difference in time to 7.5 seconds. At the end of 24 laps you would be off by 3 minutes or roughly 2 laps, and that would be without a 4 minute pit stop. These are just numbers. Use them to draw your own conclusions. | ||
| Blake |
Even more impressive with a 200cc deficit. Right, the Ilmor achievement was impressive. No argument there. Not sure anyone was trying to say that it wasn't impressive. Knowing Ilmor, for me, it just wasn't stunning is all. I fully expected the bike to be last finisher or better. I mean this is Ilmor and Gary McCoy we are talking about right? Matt, the report I read stated that a wheel speed sensor had failed. What did Ilmor accomplish that no other team has?  Is anyone surprised that the XBRR was only 7.5 seconds off of the winning MotoGP pace at Laguna Seca? That sure surprised me. On the tighter tracks, there just isn't that much difference among the pro classes. Take away a couple more seconds and the XBRR would indeed be in the ball park of a MotoGP qualifying time. Now THAT would be stunning. I believe it is a very real possibility. | ||
| Blake |
Eboos, I think average lap times are a better measure for comparison. Some riders can put in one or two very fast laps, but maintaining a consistent pace is more difficult. | ||
| Trojan |
Matt, the report I read stated that a wheel speed sensor had failed. What did Ilmor accomplish that no other team has? The wheel speed sensor is one of the inputs that controls the wheelie and traction control software. They had problems in testing and in practice with this although I was under the impression that it was the battery that failed during the race and was changed during the pit stop. They may well have changed other parts as well What they have uniquely (although I stand to be corrected) accomplished is to score a world championship point in their maiden MotoGP race using an engine of their own design and manufacture. This has eluded Aprilia, KTM, Kenny Roberts and all the 'minor' players so far. | ||
| Eboos |
The point that I was trying to make is that 7.5 seconds, or even 3 seconds, or even 1 second makes a huge difference in the pro classes reguardless of which pro class. While the Ilmor bike ran in Moto GP, it wasn't within the spec's for this year's competition. That would be like a superbike team running a GSXR750, they already have a disadvantage, on top of that, a first attempt in competition. | ||
| Glitch |
Even more impressive with a 200cc deficit.  | ||
| Sweatmark |
Stunning, and exciting. There's potential for increased competitiveness in MotoGP among race teams that might use the Ilmor engine... betting that Ilmore's current race effort is just savvy advertising of their engine program capabilities. Hope King Kenny leases a couple motors from Ilmore for 2007, along with Motoczysz. Mark Oregon | ||
| Rocketman |
Blake, I thought you was a mathematician? Your Estoril lap is out by 1 second per lap! Wow, I never would have imagined someone so enlightened in the world of performance motorcycles as you to stoop so low as to throw out the same old tired and completely inane point about the Buell engine displacement being greater. You and anyone who understand how engines work know full well that there are other major factors affecting engine performance than just displacement. I'll take that as a compliment, lol. Or are you planning to object to Ducati twins gaining a 200cc advantage over their IL4 competition in WSB? Actually, the 200cc capacity advantage comes at a price. There will be less tuning allowed to Ducati above their homologation production model. Anyway, I thought American power was built on 'There Ain't No Substitute For Cubes'?  Rocket | ||
| Davegess |
Man you guys like to argue semantics and what ifs. Ilmor did something that has not been done before, score a world championship point in the first motorcycle race they contest at any level and we are arguing about how if STUNNING is the correct word. And who is bashing Buell because it is a better or worse result than Buell's? Are you guys nuts? It does not mater if there were a lot of DNF's they did it in the premier MC racing class in the world. Does it matter if a Buell XBRR would have finished the race faster if it had been allowed to race and if it had not had mechanical problems and if it had not crashed and if the rider didn't forget what was the last lap and if the moon is made of cheese... Ilmor had a goal and surpased it. Theri goal was to finish, they did that AND scored a point. Good for them. Did Honda score a point in its first GP race? Yamaha, Suzuki, MV, Ducati, if they did was it the actual first MC race or any of them? NO Ilmor did something very significant. They surprised me all weekend. | ||
| Blake |
Dave, Yes, I think we've proven beyond all doubt that we are indeed nuts.  Are you stunned?... that we are nuts? | ||
| Trojan |
I'm stunned at just how thin skinned some people appear to be, and how praise of another manufacturer is somehow automatically construed as criticism of Buell  Nuts indeed. | ||
| Blake |
I don't think anyone took praise for Ilmor as criticism of Buell. I think some may have been put off by past criticisms of Buell then to see what they perceive as over-the-top glory-speak concerning what appears to them as not that big of a deal. I think there may be some strong personalities involved here. Ya think? The written word often fails to convey well one's true demeanor and meaning. Misinterpretation of tone and intent is always a risk. Don't let it get you down. You did a great job of defending yourself too. On the other hand, none of us can probably imagine the quantity of miserableness that anony, whoever he/she is, must face on a regular basis. (Message edited by Blake on October 18, 2006) | ||
| Rocketsprink |
Blake. I thought you raced. Don't you agree that being 7.5 seconds SLOWER per lap is a lifetime? In racing, that's a LOT slower. | ||
| Glitch |
Stunning nuts? | ||
| Blake |
Rocco, Yes, in a head to head race, 4 seconds is a lifetime. My point was that if the Ilmor at 4 seconds off the leading pace was "stunning" then the Buell XBRR at 7.5 seconds off or 109% of the leading MotoGP pace is pretty darn impressive too. I really didn't mean to poopoo the Ilmor at all. I'm rooting for them all the way, especially with Gary McCoy racing for them. | ||
| Trojan |
I've just read the writeup and interviews in the MCN, and it appears that McCoy's race pace was actually just 3 seconds per lap slower than Elias's best. They have been testing all week since the GP and expect to improve further by the next round. Qualifying was described as 'disapointing' for the team as it was the very first time they had tried qualfying tyres and the setup didn't suit them. They fully expected to be higher on the grid and said that their times on Friday were actually quicker than their qualifying time! The only disapointment for me is that we now have to wait another 10 days for the last race The pressure on the leading two in the run up to Spain will be immense. The Spanish crowd are not exactly renowned for their neutral stance either, so we can (literally) expect fireworks Add to the mix the usual Spanish suspects (minus Gibernau, who is injured and rumoured to be retiring) and sponsors who will want to do well in front of their home crowd and the prospects are mouthwatering to say the least. Spain should suit the Yamaha better than the Honda, with shorter straights and higher corner speed, but it is still wide open Prediction for the race? 1. Melandri (provided his knee is healed) 2. Rossi 3. Pedrosa If it rains? Who knows..... | ||
| Blake |
In reports about the new Ducati and Honda 800cc MGP bikes, weren't they around 1.0 seconds off the pace of the 990cc machines? That would put the Ilmore within two seconds of the competition at this point. Pedrosa ahead of Hayden? Not likely. It's amusing how so many want to write Nicky off. Interesting... In his 2003 debut season coming from AMA SBK (zero prior MotpGP track experience) Nicky finished 5th in MotoGP behind Loris Capirossi and ahead of 21 other competitors. Currently Dani Pedrosa in his debut season coming from 250GP (extensive prior MotoGP track experience) is in 5th place behind... Loris Capirossi and ahead of 16 other competitors. | ||
| Trojan |
I'm not writing Nicky off and I think he will go for it in Spain. I just 'have a feeling in my water' that he won't win it. If Rossi is ahead of Hayden, and the title is all but decided, then I can't see Pedrosa sitting dutifully behind his team leader until the end. Certainly not in front of the Spanish fans and Spanish sponsors. Melandri is just about due another win too...Just my 2 pennies worth | ||
| Davegess |
What I want to see is Nicky diving under Rossi on the last turn, they both run wide, Dani gets between them, and in the dash for the finish we get Nicky, Dani then Val with about 3 feet between them. |
