| Author | Message | ||
     Yohinan |
Hmmm. Where to start. Basically I am trying to get into the racing circuit. I have not attended a formal school nor do I currently have a race license. It is my goal within the next 6 months to a year to acquire my race license and start competing at an amateur level. I have no sponsors obviously so funding is strictly on me. Yes I know how expensive it is and how bad it can become. I have gotten a line on a totaled XB12R at a steal of a price (I know the owner basically). All my gear is purchased. I just have to focus on the bike for right now. More specifically the motor. I have no issues being mechanically inclined as long as I have some references in front of me. So here is my question. Are there any known "standard" motor builds that can be accomplished by a DIYer that are budget friendly (somewhat). Yes I realize what this stuff costs but labor is just as much as parts and if there is no labor involved then I am saving at least half the money which would otherwise go down the tubes. I am more specifically looking for an exact list of parts that would be needed to build a standard race motor. I am not looking for anything extravagant. Or have I jumped the gun and cannot build anything to a standard until I figure out what class I want to race in? If it is to upfront to ask this kind of specific info about a race motor and no one would answer then that is cool too. Just figured it cant hurt to ask since I am the "newb" when it comes to this stuff. Suspension I have already began lining up what I will be running. That is more important than the motor anyway. It is just the motor I dont have a lot of knowledge with as of right now. Thanks for the help. John | ||
| Mutation_racer |
john at liberty hd-buell we have been racing a 12r with very few mods and have had much success with it . the force t1 pipe not cheap but makes good power or the new micron is really nice to. next we have the piston from the 9r in their so it makes more compresion, gives it more torch. take out the o2 sensor, race ecm from buell, and 100 plus octane gas and you got a winning combo . and we have the placks to prove. the o2 is up to you we run leaded gas so it fouls out the plug and it one less thing to go wrong. the only thing is you get a engine light no biggy, give me a call if you have ?. 5708725398 or work it 732-381-2400 | ||
| Yohinan |
Wow, Anthony/Tony (not sure which you go by) that is more budget friendly than I thought. I was putting say 2-3k down for motor mods alone not including exhaust. I currently have a drummer. Not sure what I will use to race with. I have looked at the Micron and also the Force and the Ti-Force. Not sure which I will end up with. But from the sounds of it, your motor is stock except for the change from the 12 to 9 jugs and the 02 sensor and mappings. Things that make you go hmm. Maybe I should just leave the motor alone for now. Go with the full on suspension change and see how it goes with the actual outcomes of the races. Then I can base what I do to the motor on that. It would save me quite a few K worth of funds. | ||
| Xb9 |
Suspension upgrades, steering damper, chain conversion swingarm, and the engine mods that Mutation suggested are all you need. You'll spend alot on rubber, so whatever you have leftover you'll be spending on tires, school fees, and entry fees, travel expenses. Heck, you might want to leave the engine stock (except for the intake/exhaust mods, ecm) until you get good enough to use the extra power. Good luck! | ||
| Diablobrian |
Getting started the drummer should work. Last year in the am class my brother (diablomichael) took a regional championship as well as 3rd in 2 other classes. This was on a stock motor, with the off the shelf race kit. I would recommend that you spend your money on suspension as a beginning racer. A penske/elka/ohlins shock with proper rate spring, and then fork springs and internals should do you worlds of good. Max at Traxxion Dynamics has helped a Buell racer or 3 set their bike up. If the bike has been "totaled" It might be worth having it checked by someone like GMD computrac to be sure it is still straight and true. The first year racing is not really about how much HP you have. It is more about learning your limits and the limits of the machinery in a race setting. You need to be able to carry speed through a corner. | ||
| Vonsliek |
wow .. i've been knocking at this tree of knowledge for a year now & no-one mentioned o2 sensor for leaded fuel before. i must ask it all wrong?!  paul. | ||
| Vonsliek |
oh .. btw mutation .. was the *add* the racekit ecm or, remove?! i read it as *add*. just wondering as i have the racekit installed on mine from way back. someone else mentioned comp (?matt trojan) up to 12:1 .. wiseco w/ 0.005 clearance. was looking at wiseco buell pistons for 12r & it lists all the things needed to go w/ it (i guess some are optional) & it lists for stock, +0.020 & +0.040. also, this person said around 103 rwhp w/ 1214cc (+0.040) but 100 ft. lb TORQUE!!??!! holy crap! | ||
| Mutation_racer |
race ecu from buell the one that comes with the race kit and the pistons is all you need jugs are the same thats the winning combo or daytona the first race this year and will be for the last in all lw am classes. bullet proof right from henry dugas mouth and he was right | ||
| Mutation_racer |
pete from edison hd sell a realy nice chain drive that uses your stock swing arm about 800.00 call me 5708725398 | ||
| Trojan |
oh .. btw mutation .. was the *add* the racekit ecm or, remove?! i read it as *add*. just wondering as i have the racekit installed on mine from way back. someone else mentioned comp (?matt trojan) up to 12:1 .. wiseco w/ 0.005 clearance. was looking at wiseco buell pistons for 12r & it lists all the things needed to go w/ it (i guess some are optional) & it lists for stock, +0.020 & +0.040. also, this person said around 103 rwhp w/ 1214cc (+0.040) but 100 ft. lb TORQUE!!??!! holy crap! I think the race ECU mentioned above is the 'proper' race ECU from Henry Duga at the factory, not the commercially available 'race kit' ecu sold by dealers. These are completely different and should not be confused. The factory ecu is adjustable. It was me that uses the Wiseco 12:1 pistons and we have 103bhp and 100+ft lbs of torque using stock Ulysses cams. Our bike si tuned for use in Thunderbikes with the power:weight restriction of 1bhp/4lbs so torque was more important to us than outright bhp. If you are running the high compression it is very important to run high octane fuel too, and if still using the O2 sensor you'll need to run unleaded. We use Sunoco GT+ unleaded at 109 Octane. | ||
| Mutation_racer |
add the race ecu if you dont have one | ||
| Slaughter |
Definitely once you get a license, the legit race ECU. You need to have a dealer who will work with you because you can't order from Duga yourself. You need to work with a dyno guy with experience with the race module - there are subtle things that can go wrong if you haven't tuned one before. Definitely my recommendation is putting minimal bucks into the motor, more money into suspension and seat time. Start looking at your decisions in life in terms of seat time: Big dinner evening with THE LADY = one track day. Think about it. Seat time on the track is GOLDEN at the start. First couple years, go for max miles in fast traffic on the track. Yohinon, if you are serious about it, call Dave Finnerty at San Diego. He and his brother Fread have been racing Buells now for nearly 6 years. They can help. Come to Willow Springs the 3rd Sunday of each month and hang out in the pits with us and ask questions (yeah it's a 3.5 hr drive from Sandy Eggo but it's where you're likely going to start racing) Check out the Willow Springs unofficial racing discussion board at http://www.ducatitech.com/bbs - post as a newbie and you'll get loads of help. The "REAL" racing boards are a great place to get help on all the stuff other than your machine - tactics, fears, people, what to worry about and what not to worry about. You won't get the loads of crap that so often come up on sportbike boards since these are the folks you will actually be racing against in a REAL RACE - not in the coffee shop. Welcome to the racing community. (gotta run, I'm supposed to leave for work 15 min ago!) (Message edited by slaughter on September 19, 2006) | ||
| Jimidan |
OH, and one more thing...get a divorce right up front before you have any more yard apes. It is going to happen anyway so you might as well get it over with before there are any more "dependents" to make it even more sticky. It will save you hours and hours of arguing over money and the time you spend away from the family. The bad news is: Your new wife is your race bike and your sex will be conducted out on the track. The good news is: She will never bring you home an STD's, she will never leave you for an attractive well-hung stranger, she is always ready to give you a wild ride...at ANY time of the month.  Don't ask me how I know these things. jimidan | ||
| Yohinan |
Jim, That last post was very amusing. Too late. I am already married and have been for quite some time. What is the good thing about that? My wife has already grown to know my expensive habits. This motorcycle racing obsession is not the most expensive of my habits. Although she is not happy with how much I love my hobbies she has grown to "live" with them. As of right now it's a toss up as to what costs me more money. My tool obsession or my automotive obsession. And for those that say how do your tools cost as much as these other things? I cant say I have a shop to work out of, so I have not been able to purchase big items that take up a lot of space. I do have a tool collection that is problably bigger than most mechanics (and the snap on guy says I purchase more than anyone else where I work, MCAS Miramar). | ||
| Mutation_racer |
JUST SO YOU GUYS KNOW I HAVW THE OVER THE COUNTER RACE ECU. AND MY BIKE WINS AND HAS OVER 600 RACE MILES INCLUDING DAYTONA MILES, I ALSO HAVE THE PROGRAMABLE ONE WHICH WILL BE GOING IN THIS WINTER | ||
| Vonsliek |
may as well be here. i noticed the stock ecm allows more mid-range (no nasty dip below 5000), yet is more linear in delivery & fuelling (slower to spin up but more progressive & predictable). over-counter (o-c) race ecm is gives me poor fuelling down below 5000 but over that is sweet (party - as we all know - is cancelled by revlimiter). for street riding, o-c ecm is crap. most riding done in 1 or 2 gears & is lumpy as a top fuel racer. will chain drive, hence changable gearing, eliminate a bit of this poor performance by more appropriate gearing? will it improve ability to NOT hit rev-limiter, over stock belt gearing? & this .. can direct link be configured for improved fuelling & lifting revlimiter a few rpm? for better performance than say o-c ecm? thanks. paul. | ||
| M1combat |
You could theoretically use an XB9 ECM with a DL tune on a 12... I've had both a 9race and 9stock ECM laying in my garage for just such an occasion for about two years . I've just been waiting for a company to make something like the DL software . | ||
| Yohinan |
Is there a general consensus about the forks and rear shock? I was planning on going with Ohlins but if there is a better setup I would prefer that as long as it is not too expensive compared to the Ohlins units. I guess I can ask some other questions not relating to the original subject line. Thanks again. | ||
| M1combat |
I'm thinking that Buell now has a relationship with Ohlins and you could probably buy parts from a dealership that has a connection to Henry. He'd probably already know what sort of valving they'll need and all that. Until the RR parts became available I was going to go Ohlins on the front and Penske on the rear. I was looking at the Elka also, but I'd probably get less "buell racer" support with that unit. | ||
| Slaughter |
Ohlins means changing the front wheel and brakes too. (You have too much money?) Have Max at Traxxion Dynamics re-work the forks, re-valving and proper springs. Ask if he's got the drop-in cartridge kits for the Buell forks - those can get you near Ohlins performance for "only" $1000. It might be worth getting the bigger fork legs (43mm) because they're a little stiffer and flex less under hard braking. I think 05 was the first year they came out. The rear shock really ought to be swapped out for a Penske or Ohlins. High and low speed compression damping and ride height adjustment too. I'd take ride height adjustment over dual-speed damping but it's your call. Cheaper way to go if you MUST swap the front end is a GIXXER or KX1000 - but I can't really see where you'd feel the stock front end lacking. All things being equal, I always recommend spending the money in the following order: Track Days (no substitute for experience) Tires (DOT if you must, slicks if you can - check your class rules) Suspension (stock suspension with proper springs is actually pretty good when properly setup) Engine - if you want to go more than the standard race kit, don't bother until you've saved another $3000-$5000 and then go for a built motor. Check your class rules first. The bottom ends are weak when hitting the rev limit constantly at the higher RPM's. Set your redline at 7500 and she'll last a long time. Set it at 8300 and she'll last a 3-day weekend. Bodywork - looking good aint all that big a thing. (Message edited by slaughter on September 19, 2006) | ||
| Xb12r |
I race a xb12 with a ducati triple 27 offset and ohlins forks, 4 pad brembo pads,Ducati wheel and penske on the rear,It works well 2nd last race in ccs.I am going to put a SS G carb on my xb. No more ecm and more HP. | ||
| Blake |
Steve, Typo in your WSMC discussion board link?... http://www.dutatitech.com/bbs s/b http://www.ducatitech.com/bbs ?  Don, You been on the track yet? In my opinion its far better to be on a stock Buell and get schooled by a kid on a RS125 versus having a tricked out fancy racing Buell and getting schooled by a kid on an RS125.  We may imagine we are down for getting right up to speed on the track, and maybe you are one of the rare ultra-talented guys who can do that, but if you are like the rest of us, it will take a LOT of time and practice. Steve knows of what he speaks. Get thee to the track amigo. Slap the Buell race rear spring on, safety wire, belly pan and go. Besides, then you can really appreciate the improvements afforded by all the trick stuff you add later. I'd just hate for you to show up at the track and get disillusioned. That would suck. Keith races his XB9S with a totally stock suspension and he's taken a first place and a 2nd place. | ||
| Mutation_racer |
blake his susp. is worked | ||
| Blake |
I was talking about my friend Keith aka "Skully" the www.DarkHorseMoto.com man. | ||
| Slaughter |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Steve, Typo in your WSMC discussion board link?... http://www.dutatitech.com/bbs s/b http://www.ducatitech.com/bbs ? Yep. Typing in a hurry. Fixed - all better now. Nitey nite. | ||
| M1combat |
I have no illusions about how fast I might or might not be ... I just know I have enough money to make some preparations so I may as well . Just got a 20% raise along with a promotion too . The track days will commence shortly, then hopefully a Kieth Code class before February. Then racing... I'll use the first season for the most part to learn (the tracks and the bike). I've been a simulation racer using a PC for years (cars though) and I've gotten reasonably good at race craft, strategy and choosing lines from on-line racing leagues where you race against serious people, not kids. My favorite simulator (GTR by SimBin) goes so far as to simulate sensors hooked to a MoTec interpreter... damper positions, damper velocities, ride heights, tire temps, brake rotor temps, oil and water temps, wheel spin on all four wheels, slip angle, yaw/pitch/roll velocity and a host of others that one can plot vs. time and/or location and/or other laps. It comes with the same MoTec software used with race cars to gather data and make intelligent decisions about setup changes. Pages of setup options as well. They use the best computer models of tire physics available. The thought process while simulation racing should be very much like the real thing (with the exception of the risk factors of course) so I should have that worked out fairly well. This would include stuff like which lines to use in which situations, hitting marks, how to learn racetracks and that sort of thing. I understand that doesn't make me a good rider , or able to find a magic setup on a motorcycle, but I think it'll give me a couple advantages that should help me out a little. Mostly in the energy management on the track aspect of it, and in keeping my concentration level high. I mostly need to learn about how bikes work so I can apply whatever skills I may have picked up in simulators to them. If none of it transfers I'm OK with that , I'm a race fan for sure and it'll be a blast to fight for whatever place I can get to . Placing well will start out as the icing on the cake. If there's one thing that simulation racing has taught me it's that there's no replacement for seat time . (Message edited by M1Combat on September 20, 2006) | ||
| Vonsliek |
er .. dude .. hard track time ain't NOTHING like pc sims or other fantasy - absolutely NO offence intended. firstly .. the little muscles on the top/inside of yr knees are gonna BURN after a few corners riding on yer toes! yr calves may scream after a few minutes/hrs - whichever comes first. yr arms will ache from hanging off buell - its high CoG makes it rather physical to corner w/ (hang off) compared to any i-4 i have tried on track. i am still w/ buell, but am currently involved in an extensive battle w/ exercising to make certain my concentration & endurance enable me to make the MOST of next yrs track time. i HIGHLY advise u get yr legs & core STRONG before u hit the track hardcore. look hard at the faces of the highest level racers .. they are ALL superfit .. they are lean yet stronger than most of us. look at melandri's thighs .. looks like a racing greyhound. any well equipped gym has all the provisions for creating yr training regime. fortunately i have had a summer of track time (at a cost of a few grand - but well worth it) because now i know what muscles are used. also, when i watch races now - i have a strong idea of what is happening physically. lastly - the physio-psycho aspects of breaking late & hard for a corner at 22okmh & then actually lift ass off seat (which is harder than at low speed, as cornering introduces g-forces to tie u to bike - hence legs get sore - like millions of mini squats) is harder than watching/playing. u have to have faith & until it becomes closer to second nature & u gain sufficient strength in yr legs, its a whole lot to deal w/ - let alone when u realise u are actually leaned over far enough for something to touch down - likely yr outside of toes - & make u stand the bike up mid corner (yes i did it first few times until i got angry w/ myself)! riding hard on track is NOTHING like in canyons or fast road riding - for one its smoother & hence u take bigger risks & spend less time in the saddle. listen to these guys - yes buells are underpowered in many ways compared to i4's but - & this is a good thing - the sound of the racekit exhaust (in my case) lets them know u r there & they sometimes make mistakes as they are either distracted by the noise (hence pressure) or, pissed that u haled them up on the straights, so they go too hot in corners & crash out - i made at least 2 ppl do that .. have fun & RIDE HARD! | ||
| Jimidan |
M1 sez: "If there's one thing that simulation racing has taught me it's that there's no replacement for seat time ." TRUE. I have no illusions that I am fast either, but I can still pretend. It is a hoot whether you are fast of not. I have a suggestion about making your simulation racing more realistic. You could attach alligator clip electrodes to your testicles and rig the computer to send you long jolts from a Dyna coil when you "crash".  That way, you can simulate some of the fear factor that plays into actually being on the track. But there ain't nothin' like actually crashing...ultraviolence! Another great reason to get in extremely good shape before you race, in addition to those listed above, is that it doesn't tear up your body as badly when you hit the ground. Get in shape for the crash. The thrill of being on a track makes any drug pale by comparison...and it is legal. Good luck and have fun! jimidan | ||
| Slaughter |
put all your first 2 season's money into seat time Put all your spare time (once maintenance of the bike is taken care of) into STRUCTURED workout! Flexibility and endurance and NOT building. If you can get to a 24hr Fitness at 0430, you can run circuits and keep your heart rate at 70% of your maximum for an hour on the weights or machines without interruption. After 20 min aerobics at 85% max heart rate, light weights, lots of reps . Couple months at 3 days a week and you'll start feeling much closer. That's what my physical therapist recommended (after trying to talk me out of racing) I am NOT strong, I'm a skinny guy but after 3 days on the track, I'm still walking around while half my buddies are looking for a comfy chair. And yes, the crash recovery goes better. | ||
| Blake |
Don't let Steve fool you. He's an vicious iron man killer at heart. His actual for-real name is "Slaughter"! D'UH! Do NOT piss this man off! Last time it happened they blamed a rampaging grizzly bear. yr arms will ache from hanging off buell - its high CoG makes it rather physical to corner w/ (hang off) compared to any i-4 i have tried on track. That's difficult for me to see. A higher CG makes tipping the bike in easier, not more difficult, and hanging-off is hanging-off no matter what bike you are on. It isn't any more rigorous on one compared to another if the ergonomics are similar. I know I've never had any arm issues due to hanging off. It's the hard braking that is tough on the arms. I agree that it's mostly all legs, legs, legs. The one saving grace in club racing is that the sprint races are short 6 to 8-lap, ~fifteen minute affairs. Conditioning is not nearly as big a deal as it is for a full-blown SBK or MotoGP duration race. Those will flat out kick your butt if conditioning is not up to par. I speak from the experience of running a 30 minute GT race a few years back and suffering defeat at the hands of Mr. Physically fit himself, the Skullinator. At some point, every muscle in each leg was cramping. At one point, I was having to lift my entire left leg in order to downshift (GP shifting). Don, Congrats on the raise! |
