| Author | Message | ||
     Court |
>>>Is Jeremy through for the year or will he be making the final Mid-Ohio date? Look for Jeremy at Mid-Ohio. | ||
| Pioggia_di_parata |
You guys crack me up, discussing back and forth whether the FX front-runners are superbike-quality riders or not. So what if they are? McWilliams is a GP quality rider! Now you all seem to be acknowledging that the only way for the XB-DNF (old name revived just for this weekend  ) to get a top 5 finish is to have it piloted by a world class rider against guys who aren't fast enough for a national superbike class. If the bike was truly competitive it would be competitive with a rider of reasonably equal ability to his competitors, not only when piloted by a world class ringer against mid-level national semi-pros. Your enthusiasm for the brand is admirable, but the mental machinations you have to go through to keep from admitting that this bike has totally failed to live up to expectations are sad and funny at the same time. | ||
| Blake |
I guess some expected the XBRR to be a world-beater right out of the box. Here on BadWeB, we call those kinds of folks "fools." | ||
| M1combat |
You missed it wee wee... They were discussing the competition level this year relative to the last few years due to the fact that the XB12R raced with slightly different competition back then. I don't think they were saying "The bike's not winning because McWilliams isn't fast enough." Who's going through mental machinations here? You say I drink Kuell aid? Re-read the thread please. Try not to take things out of context in order to suit your little version of your badweb reality. Thanks. So why don't you just put your name in your profile anyway? | ||
| Diablobrian |
Come on guys, don't feed the troll. | ||
| Jscott |
"You guys crack me up, discussing back and forth whether the FX front-runners are superbike-quality riders or not. So what if they are? McWilliams is a GP quality rider!" You are correct, but that sidebar discussion had nothing to do with the competitiveness of the XBRR. McWilliams is a top notch rider no doubt, and I don't think without him or the likes of Crevier this bike even would be placing as high as it is. Obviously Hale has credentials, but his stretches of inactivity and recent injury surely haven't helped his placement. "I guess some expected the XBRR to be a world-beater right out of the box. Here on BadWeB, we call those kinds of folks "fools."" While certainly I didn't believe it was going to be a "world-beater" right out of the box, I did expect it to be more "competitive". I guess that makes me guilty to a slightly lesser extent of being "foolish". I'll add that to my growing list of BadWeb character descriptions. | ||
| Jima4media |
The only way you can judge whether a problem is with a bike or a rider is to switch riders or bikes. Remember when Biaggi used to say the reason Rossi won was because he was on a Honda RC211V, and he was on a Yamaha M1? Then the next year they switched bikes, and Rossi proved it was him and not the bike. Rossi was riding the Yamaha M1 and won the Championship, and Biaggi did nothing on the Honda RC211V. Could Jeremy McWilliams put a FX Honda CBR600 or Yamaha R6 on the podium? Yes I think he could. Could Josh Hayes, Eric Bostrom or Jason DiSalvo put a XBRR on the podium? I'll leave that for you to answer for yourselves. Jim | ||
| Rubberdown |
"I guess some expected the XBRR to be a world-beater right out of the box. Here on BadWeB, we call those kinds of folks "fools." That was uncalled for. | ||
| Shred |
I enjoyed seeing all that showed up for the races and just having a Buell Team racing in AMA is cool. Wished McWilliams and team had better results, but put on a good show. They were running good and turned some heads. I'll post more later with some racing pics' | ||
| Blake |
Rubberdown, I'd say the following was uncalled for: "the mental machinations you have to go through to keep from admitting that this bike has totally failed to live up to expectations are sad and funny at the same time." | ||
| What_the |
Has anyone here stepped back and figured out what "the problem" is yet? It's not peak HP, tires, brakes, chassis, and least of all Jeremy. PDP a "ringer" my arse... ever met any ringers that race a strange track for the first time, in any form of motorsports? I think WSB B-Boz and MotoGP Nicky seriously prove otherwise if you've followed racing long enough. I'll refresh... WSB Ducs for Ben, and Nicky on his home MotoGP soil. Those were polar opposites, except for Laguna, yes? Jeremy, is very, very talented, and a great development rider. If you don't agree, ask BMW...lol An AMA ringer on new tracks with a new bike, give me a break. Now back to my original question. You all are bright folks, and after watching several AMA races on the speed, have you figured "it" out yet? Blaming the rider, Peak HP, Tires, Brakes, an Suspension isn't the answer. Dig deeper into the details. | ||
| Whodom |
"Broken primary drive chain took out Jeremy, so now we know how long they last!" Weren't primary chains an early source of trouble with the XBRR's development? Do you mean final drive chain? Remember that they were experimenting with a single row primary chain prior to Daytona. It proved unreliable in testing in Texas and was shelved. Perhaps Buell has done further development work and tried it again at Road Atlanta? Anony's remark seems to lend credence to this theory. I can imagine that a single row primary would have much less drag than the standard unit and much less inertia to allow quicker throttle response. | ||
| M1combat |
I think the engine is too tall. I think the bike needs to be put through another weight loss regimen. I think it needs more RPM. I think it needs a belt or gear primary? Any thoughts? | ||
| Jscott |
Hopefully McWilliams, Crevier, and Hale will all be able to make the season finale at MidOhio in October. More testing needs to be done to insure no DNF's for the season finale. Review their first year program and develop a real path forward for next year. At that point they need to decide how serious they are about racing in the AMA. Field a true Factory team that has some resources for a full season or get off the pot. Field a two rider factory effort and assist a two rider dealer team. Ben Bostrom is available for next season and would greatly elevate Buell's visibility in the sponsorship arena. Gary Medley will also be looking for a job for the 2007 season, he and Ben seem to have a good relationship. Keep McWilliams on as a development/testing rider. Danny Eslick is ready to move up to a factory team as well. Crevier has had to best results thus far and only the one DNF at Daytona. Paul Fournier seems to be a skilled tuner for the Canadians. Again, I think the biggest culprit is the inconsistent showings of the disconjointed Buell efforts. Focus is what's needed more than anything. Results will follow. | ||
| M2nc |
All I can say is, Go Buell! I have to agree with Jscott, they need a year long commitment with quality riders and I am not putting down any present ones. I wished for more, but Buell is in the ball park. They need to continue to develop the bikes at full speed because the competition obviously is. Has anyone noticed that the Super Stocks were two seconds slower that the top FX bikes. Why? Because Honda, Yamaha and Suzuki are all out to stay on top. Next year the door is open for Ducati, Triumph and BMW to get into the Daytona 200. If they decide to jump into FX they too will be all out. If Buell stands a chance in this league they have to do the same. | ||
| Jimidan |
Anony sez: "Broken primary drive chain took out Jeremy, so now we know how long they last! Actually Jeremy still is excited, as this is a very interesting and challenging program." So, how long do they last? Seems like this was an inappropriate way to test primary chain longevity.  I am glad McWilliams is not too despondent...he has certainly had more than his share of DNF's this year. That stuff drove Shawn Higbee crazy during the Pro Thunder daze. jimidan | ||
| Jimidan |
Jscott responding to Blake: ""I guess some expected the XBRR to be a world-beater right out of the box. Here on BadWeB, we call those kinds of folks "fools."" While certainly I didn't believe it was going to be a "world-beater" right out of the box, I did expect it to be more "competitive". I guess that makes me guilty to a slightly lesser extent of being "foolish". I'll add that to my growing list of BadWeb character descriptions." I don't think it was foolish for any Buell fan to have had high expectations considering the official Buell press hype during the XBRR's initial public release. All you had to do to get all giddy was just listen and read. Fuell read like a romance novel announcing that Buell was "committed like never before to helping privateers and dealer teams succeed." Erik went further with, "As we were testing at Daytona, it really became clear to us that now is the time to take back the Daytona 200 and make it a truly American race by putting a true American motorcycle in a position to be competitive." When asked about if the lap times in testing fast enough to be competitive, he responded, "We wouldn't be doing this if we weren't...we're going to be fine." He also said, "Buell was founded in 1983 to provide superior bikes for privateers to win the Daytona 200." We now know that the "privateer" XBRR's will likely never be competitive with full on factory teams in FX, but the hype didn't give us much to go on in making that determination. Here on Badweb, were we foolish to believe the hype? Probably, but we didn't get on that train without plenty of assistance. Anyway, what is so bad about having hope, however misguided, that Buells could compete heads-up on the national stage of roadracing. Hell, even Kevin Erion bought it for a while. jimidan | ||
| Smoke |
Talked with Jeremy friday evening and his biggest concern was to find out how to make the bike more flickable. he said he was losing time on the left-right-left-right transitions and had the necessary speed on the straights. gyroscopic effect-my opinion. Jeremy seemed frustrated, yet dedicated to trying to find the setup to go faster. Great guy to talk to. THANK YOU BUELL for the effort. trying to figure out how to get to mid-ohio for the next one. tim | ||
| Imonabuss |
This is a real effort by a very small company building a product very different from the rest. It's unfortunate that there are jacka**es like PdP and Jima4 who are delighted in the problems, and it is certainly hard not to let their gloating get to you. But, I say it is great that Buell is back racing, and I believe that there will be more and more successes. The competition is very tough, and the competitive products are very refined in this venue. One of the difficulties Jeremy is going through is simply learning the tracks which he has never ridden before, and communicating the set-up issues back to a very inexperienced team. This will only improve as the bikes are run more often. JScott is right that more focus is needed, but it's obvious this isn't going to happen this year. Hopefully next year there will be some serious sponsorship money available, and one or more teams will be able to run the full season of AMA FX. If not, we'll have to settle for XBRRs running and winning in ASRA. WERA, WSMC, etc. It is clear that Buell will not break the bank to field a factory team, and those who know Buell history know why. I love my XB street bike, and personally am glad that the majority of Buell's small team are working on these, not the race bikes. As an ex-racer, I would love to see Buell winning in FX, but have to look at it in perspective of the size of the company, and the small part that racing has to play there. | ||
| Rubberdown |
Jackasses? Fools? Guys, get over it and quit being so thin skinned. | ||
| Jima4media |
Imonabuss: I have never been delighted with Buells failures. I have never gloated over the less than stellar performances. I have just been realistic. I told Blake two years ago that it would take more than 5 millions dollars and a new motor to field a competitive Buell team in FX. I think I might have been off by an order of magnitude. I had high hopes for the XBRR before Daytona, but said they would have to get around at least 8 bikes to win. An almost impossible task the first time out. When people here on BadWeb were talking about finishing 1-2-3-4, I said they were nuts. After I saw the first practice laps at Daytona, I know pretty much how the whole year was going to turn out. I wasn't wrong. What I didn't plan on were as many DNFs as there were. When it was stated the new XBRR was 20 times as reliable, I believed it. My mistake. Relibility is measured with results, just as performance is measured with a stopwatch on a track. All Harley has to do is produce a reliable winning motor, and be singing its praises. Jim (Message edited by jima4media on September 04, 2006) | ||
| Blake |
Some people are know-it-all citics, some actually go out and race. The arrogance of some critics here is astounding. "I...", "I...", "I..." "I...", "I...", "I..." "I...", "I...", "I..." "I...", "I...", "I..." "I...", "I...", "I..." No Jim, I'm not picking on just you. No no one here is seeking to avoid admitting the failures of the XBRR this year. What we are doing is looking ahead with continued optimism and enthusiasm. It is strange to me that anyone here would be looking for and expecting some kind of "admission of failure." When a racing machine DNFs due to technical problems, what kind of jackass goes around seeking an "admission of failure." Answer: The same jackasses who refuse to admit the significant positive accomplishments of the Buell racers. These folks are, whether they admit it or not, looking to revel in the failures of others, specifically those campaigning Buell motorcycles on the racetrack. You won't see these folks applaud any of the numerous successes of Buell racers. No, you'll only see them pop up to add their unbelievably arrogant chiding criticism in order to as they will put it "bring us all back to reality." The reality is that most naysayers like these folks are arrogant do-nothings and internet trolls who seek to gain a measure of self-esteem by telling others how smart they are and how much of a failure others are and that they knew it all along. My how smart they are. Me, I'll keep routing for the doers in this world while doing my best to be one of them. Go Buell racers!! Go Jezza! Go Crevier! Hey! Buell racer Darren James just wrapped up his second Canadian Thunderbike championship! Go Darren! | ||
| Blake |
Jim, I strongly agree with your "off by an order of magnitude" comment. | ||
| Whodom |
I was surprised there weren't more XBRR's at Road Atlanta. Does anyone know how many of the 50+ bikes have actually been delivered? Why at the next-to-the-last FX race of the season, do we only have 2 XBRR's show up and only one qualify? One thing that occurs to me is that maybe the other teams are holding off actually racing while Jeremy and a few others do the hard development work. Maybe we'll see a set of factory XBRR upgrades shortly to make the bikes more competitive? Anyone else have any thoughts? | ||
| M2nc |
One footnote. Let's not bicker amongst each other as if Buell XBRR platform failed, because it has not. In privateer hands in other series the bike will be very successful. The problem is that Buell is going after the Top factory teams. These teams have more resources. more experience, compete in more arenas and who knows how much more money they are spending doing it. The XBRR was designed to go after Privateers, not top factory teams. If they want to go after top factory teams they need to make the same commitment as they are. Also, Toyota took three years to be competitive in the Nascar Truck Series. They spent big money buying top race teams to help them get up to speed. Toyota is no little company. It is the second biggest car company in the world and the most profitable. For Buell to do the same in this series in one year, it would had to have full support of the mothership and it does not. | ||
| Jscott |
I guess we know where Crevier was this weekend.  Celebrating Darren James' Canadian Thunder championship along side young gun Brett McCormick | ||
| Jscott |
""I...", "I...", "I..." "I...", "I...", "I..." "I...", "I...", "I..." "I...", "I...", "I..." "I...", "I...", "I..." 'm not your stepping stone! | ||
| Jimidan |
M2nc sez: "The XBRR was designed to go after Privateers, not top factory teams. If they want to go after top factory teams they need to make the same commitment as they are. Also, Toyota took three years to be competitive in the Nascar Truck Series. They spent big money buying top race teams to help them get up to speed. Toyota is no little company. It is the second biggest car company in the world and the most profitable. For Buell to do the same in this series in one year, it would had to have full support of the mothership and it does not." Do we really know what the XBRR was designed to "go after"? In hindsight, it is safe to say that in its present iteration that it is not competitive with the factory teams...or even the top seven. This seemed to miss that mark set by none other than Erik Buell himself (not us), when he said, "...now is the time to take back the Daytona 200 and make it a truly American race by putting a true American motorcycle in a position to be competitive." Even after the Daytona 200, Erik kept the dream alive when he said, "These bikes are fast - and are going to be a big factor all year on the AMA Formula Xtreme circuit." Does it sound like he knew that the funding was not there to race in about half of the FX races? Was he just one of the "fools" like us here on badweb? You are absolutely correct that for this bike to compete with the big boys in FX, it will take a lot of commitment...and what else? If Jeremy McWilliams cannot get this GP250 style chassis to change directions with the Hondas and Yammy Hauls, I am not sure who can. Hopefully, there will be a lot of off season work done testing this bike before Daytona. I will be satisfied just watching the XBRR run in ASRA and CCS, where it is not who spends the most money wins. Regarding Toyota's foray into NASCAR racing, ya gotta remember that it is not racing its cars but essentially the same car that everybody else is. These cars are purpose built with a tube-frame chassis, and a V8 pushrod motor...nothing like anything they build. In the wonderful world of AMA FX, the bikes are modified street bikes. Your point would be valid if Buell used a spec IL4 in its XBRR. jimidan Go Buell at Mid Ohio! (Message edited by jimidan on September 05, 2006) (Message edited by jimidan on September 05, 2006) (Message edited by jimidan on September 05, 2006) | ||
| Jimidan |
Whodom sez: "I was surprised there weren't more XBRR's at Road Atlanta. Does anyone know how many of the 50+ bikes have actually been delivered? Why at the next-to-the-last FX race of the season, do we only have 2 XBRR's show up and only one qualify? One thing that occurs to me is that maybe the other teams are holding off actually racing while Jeremy and a few others do the hard development work. Maybe we'll see a set of factory XBRR upgrades shortly to make the bikes more competitive? Anyone else have any thoughts?" I was also surprised, Hugh. Who was the other non-qualifying Buell? This hearkens back to the days when Tilley ran the only Buell in Pro Thunder, and when it had a problem, Buell DNF'd. This past weekend's events was just weird bad luck...geez, the primary chain failed. How rare is that? Like Steve-O getting hit in the chest by a sting ray's barb...just plain uncanny. It would have been fun to see how many more places McWilliams would have taken if he had been able to continue. It will be interesting to watch the ticker for the times he was running compared to the top 7 leaders during tomorrow's replay. jimidan | ||
| Ebear |
Hey Blake......I usually never get involved in threads involving these ridiculous naysayers and chestbeaters but I must say you summed it up perfectly........ "No no one here is seeking to avoid admitting the failures of the XBRR this year. What we are doing is looking ahead with continued optimism and enthusiasm. It is strange to me that anyone here would be looking for and expecting some kind of "admission of failure." When a racing machine DNFs due to technical problems, what kind of jackass goes around seeking an "admission of failure." Answer: The same jackasses who refuse to admit the significant positive accomplishments of the Buell racers. These folks are, whether they admit it or not, looking to revel in the failures of others, specifically those campaigning Buell motorcycles on the racetrack. You won't see these folks applaud any of the numerous successes of Buell racers. No, you'll only see them pop up to add their unbelievably arrogant chiding criticism in order to as they will put it "bring us all back to reality." The reality is that most naysayers like these folks are arrogant do-nothings and internet trolls who seek to gain a measure of self-esteem by telling others how smart they are and how much of a failure others are and that they knew it all along. My how smart they are. Me, I'll keep routing for the doers in this world while doing my best to be one of them."  Nicely Said Blake..!!! And it seems too many people are overly quick to offer up their opinions without ever having been involved in this level or any level of competition involving this type of machinery. I for one feel its outstanding what these bikes have accomplished in their first year of competition.I look forward to their continual improvements and am more than certain that these bikes will prove to be competitive in their class and give alot of racers results to be proud of.I'm rooting for the doers.And really appreciative that McWilliams,Crevier,Hale and the like sees enough in these machines to wan't to be involved! |
