| Author | Message | ||
     Curtyd |
"Anony, you really do need to stop making snide personal attacks on people on this board. You are getting just too much. Your constant attacks on people are really starting to wind me up now. If it isn't us then it is anyone who even dares mutter anything less than complimentary about Buell." I am guessing he's just another junior mgt./sales 'hack', probably doesn't even ride a bike, much less race one. Probably has NOT spent mucho $$'s of HIS own hard-earned money over the years and years staying in this sport, come whatever. A couple more guys like him pop up and I might re-think my "vote my checkbook" and look again towards the 'East". But he knows who "butters his bread" and needs to keep that nose of his nice and "brown." Sounds a lot like a "fresh out of school" youngin, they KNOW IT ALL, just ask them....  (Message edited by CURTYD on August 07, 2006) | ||
| Court |
Curt: I read your first paragraph, was listening and trying to, as adults do in a conversation, try to understand your point of view. It's s shame you couldn't state your case and then stop typing. The 2nd paragraph eroded any credibility you ever hoped to have. It's juvenile;what I've come to expect from internet discussion boards where he/she with the most bravado and the least propensity to listen and consider, oft prevails. I, just yesterday, was treated a a litany of things written about me and my efforts to help Buell owners. You should state your thoughts clearly and succinctly without resulting to playground type dialogue. In addition, I think it's quite important that folks understand there are a host of "Anonymous" posters here, some perhaps appear as folks they are not. This, my friend, is the internet. Some of the things I've recently been treated to are, at the very least, embarrassing. | ||
| Curtyd |
Are you talking this thread or another? I think 55 seconds down on a 15 or 20 lap race is not a good showing, even if their was a good give and take going on at the back of the pack. From a spectator's standpoint, I've always thought the lapped riders or "back markers" have always interfered with the race to WIN, which is the only purpose of RACING, isn't it? I think if you are lapped you should be black flagged off. The speeds are so different and I have seen plenty of accidents caused when the slower rider interferes with the faster ones just because he is there. If you are talking another thread I can discuss that too, but I concur that this Anonymous has nothing but snide, derogatory personal comments to add to most discussions and will "take up that gauntlet" whenever it is tossed down. I don't believe for the moment he is the CEO of BUELL or anything, and said that. And you know something? He probably is the only one who has good reason to use an "ANON" post, all others should let their moto-experience speak for itself and not confuse matters. P.S. My admittedly juvenile outburst at "Anonymous" was preceded by the following post directed at me citing NEITHER LOGIC or FACTS, in another thread by "Anonymous". Unfortunately in the minds of most folks, Anonymous=BUELL employee, and this is a pretty p** poor example of this, my, "at the moment", favorite moto-manufacturer. "Curtyd, My logic and the facts are clear and simple. You are ineducable. Such is life for some. Revel in your ignorance. It's your right." (Message edited by CURTYD on August 07, 2006) | ||
| M1combat |
"From a spectator's standpoint, I've always thought the lapped riders or "back markers" have always interfered with the race to WIN, which is the only purpose of RACING, isn't it? I think if you are lapped you should be black flagged off." WTF? Crevier didn't get lapped. Back Markers are there because they make the race interesting. You want to see back markers flagged off the track? Have you watched F1 in the last decade? Have you watched the last season of Moto-GP? WRT Anony posts... It's HDB policy. If they didn't post anonymously they couldn't post at all. I think anony was just trying to get Trojan's goat a little. Many people have run with dual discs and with ZTL2 setups. Most prefer the ZTL2. If Matt can't/won't get a ZTL2 that's the problem. Buell should indeed send him one for whatever they charge. That said... Why run a swing-arm that doesn't have the oil in it? I don't get it. | ||
| Court |
>>>>>>P.S. My admittedly juvenile outburst at "Anonymous" was preceded by the following post directed at me citing NEITHER LOGIC or FACTS, in another thread by "Anonymous". Unfortunately in the minds of most folks, Anonymous=BUELL employee, and this is a pretty p** poor example of this, my, "at the moment", favorite moto-manufacturer. Restraint, particularly when jumping to conclusions, ofter offers the unintended reward of making the author appear wise and well read. Try waiting one day to post a response to a posting like that. Like wine, wise words improve with time. Answer like your life depended on providing the solution, not exposing the poster. | ||
| Court |
 I've had 3 very perplexing Buell Motorcycle problems that have landed on my desk (yes, I have a real job) during the day today. I wonder how it would be perceived if I wrote these folks back with snide insulting replies. Think. | ||
| Curtyd |
I appreciate what it takes to race, my "black flag" is only proposed for lapped riders. I think ultimately the solution is to level the playing field, then the significance of the rider comes out not the $'s spent on the technologies, but then I don't promote uniformity of platforms either. I just know when there are wide differences in lap speeds it gets more dangerous out there, and some lapped riders interfere with the race outcomes, some don't. I absolutely HATE when a lapped rider decides to start mixing it up with someone who is an entire lap ahead of them, Those guys should get black flagged... | ||
| Pioggia_di_parata |
Regarding tires and the Daytona 200, Diablobrian wrote: "Moto GP doesn't run anywhere close to 200 miles on a "3 stop strategy" that's 66+ miles on a tire." A standard MotoGP race is longer than 66 miles and is done without any tire changes, so you're just plain wrong there. Also, your math is quite bad -- a 3-stop strategy results in four stints (draw a picture if it will help you understand that), so each set of tires is only going 50 miles. That means that contrary to your claim, MotoGP tires go many more miles than Daytona 200 tires, not less. But trying to compare MotoGP tires to AMA Superbike tires used at Daytona is probably pointless anyway because it's apples and oranges. So how about we just compare AMA Superbike tires used at Daytona with AMA Superbike tires used at Daytona... The last time the Daytona 200 was run on Superbikes (2004) the winner rode 15-16 laps between pitstops. After the Daytona 200 was changed to FX, the Daytona Superbike race became 15 laps without a pit stop. Think about that for a second. If the Dunlops are safe for a 15 lap Superbike race at Daytona, they are safe for a 15 lap stint of a Superbike Daytona 200, no? Therefore the tire safety argument clearly doesn't hold water. And since the main topic of this thread is actually Crevier's Mid-Ohio top 10 finish, I'll toss in a comment on that as well: I was surprised to see the XBRR get a top-10 finish without a GP ringer at the controls. I really didn't expect that. Then this info comes in about the $10k front end. Haha! So much for the "spend $30k and be competitive" -- now that's a $40k bike! Ouch. More like "spend $30k to get a bike which still needs either a GP pilot or thousands more thrown at it to get into the top 10. Expect this to be brought up next time somebody applauds the top-10 finish of the "$30k privateer bike". Can a $30k XBRR ridden by an AMA regular get into the top 10? Maybe, but so far not yet. | ||
| Court |
>>>>Maybe, but so far not yet. I'm okay with that......given that 6 months ago we'd never even seen the bike.
| ||
| Steve_a |
Undoubtedly, some of the teams running XBRRs will choose to use dual disc front ends -- they're familiar with them, and there is no one more conservative than a professional racer. They want what worked for them previously, and what everyone else is running -- whether it's better or not. It's only when we put someone routinely on the top of the box that that will change. In addition, some teams started with front end changes to get 16.5 inch front wheels. We've only just begun to produce ZTL2 compatible 16.5 front wheels, and it's going to take a little while to have enough wheels to supply absolutely everyone who might want one. It's also true that the ZTL2 front brake is working superbly, and saves 4 to 5 pounds over competing front brake systems. It's the one system that McWilliams has requested no changes to since Daytona, and he has indeed compared its performance to GP brake systems. Even given that, we are making improvements to it to make it even better. And contrary to posts here and elsewhere, you can make comparably very rapid front wheel changes with the ZTL system, particularly under AMA rules that don't allow full-on endurance racing front wheel change systems, with pivoting axle clamps, etc. You learn a lot in racing, and believe me, you will see this learning in future production Buells. | ||
| Diablobrian |
Well, as Jeremy McWilliams said "There is no place like this in GP. Staying at wide open throttle for so long" Also in GP they don't stay on one side of the tire for as long as they do at daytona. You are correct, my math was bad on that post however, I've seen what tires look like coming off of the track at Daytona. Have you? the left side is FRIED, and the right is hardly used at all. But I'm sure that is caused by politics not racing right? Why would they choose to change the 200 from the superbikes to FX except for rider safety? It certainly isn't to fill seats because attendance has not been good since the change. Racing is a business and they made the change for rider safety. Not because of any conspiracy. The AMA and ISC LOST money on changing the class. Tell Ben Spies that there is no reason that Superbike shouldn't be running the 200 I'm sure he'll be glad to educate you on exactly how well the tires hold up at speed. | ||
| Pioggia_di_parata |
Diablobrian, You completely ignored the part about the current Daytona Superbike race being the same length as one stint of the Daytona 200. If the tires are ok for a 15 lap Superbike race they are ok for a 15 lap stint of a Superbike 200. Simple. I await your rebuttal to that point, without red herrings about what other reasons there might have been to change the 200 to FX. Just a simple explanation of how a tire which is safe enough for a 15 lap Superbike race is not safe enough for a 15 lap stint of an endurance race. | ||
| Curtyd |
I have read somewhere that with the change and the XBRR, that the France family is trying to pull in some of the "faithful" from Main Street. We're just lucky they continue to host it year after year. They aren't making much money compared to their NASCAR events. I still say it's DUNLOP that can't make a tire for it, not the others, and they just have to add an extra pit stop or two, it's their call. | ||
| M1combat |
"I absolutely HATE when a lapped rider decides to start mixing it up with someone who is an entire lap ahead of them, Those guys should get black flagged..." No... They should get blue flagged three times THEN black flagged  . ____________________________________________ Parade streaker... The problem surfaces when a team decides that they'll just go ahead and go easy on the tires to try to make a two stop strategy work, of when you get a not so perfect tire. The move to FX for the 200 was a good one. So... Why bitch about how much a top ten costs? The fact is that there have been TWO top ten finishes IN A ROW. I know that bugs you . I think that's funny. You feel threatened because some "guys from Wisconsin" with a small budget are showing good form. You see the Buell team and bike as an under-developed and shody system but it's showing good form (and results) against what you believe to be the gods of the AMA. Your seeing a little team that you give no respect to nipping at the heals of whatever team you're in love with and you can't stand it. I know, I know... 50 seconds... They'll get there . You know it . | ||
| Curtyd |
I don't know the flags very well, just watched from the stands. I know after 30 years I should have it in my noggin, but I am getting where I can say, "I have forgotten more things than some of the youngsters ever may know, or is that just the '60's/70's?" | ||
| Pioggia_di_parata |
Oh what the heck, just to humor you I'll respond to your various digressions: "I've seen what tires look like coming off of the track at Daytona. Have you?" Yes. "the left side is FRIED, and the right is hardly used at all." True for tires used in all AMA classes at Daytona all the way down to 600 Supersport, so not exactly an argument for or against a Superbike 200. "But I'm sure that is caused by politics not racing right?" If the facts were on your side you wouldn't need to resort to pointless sarcasm. Besides, I never said anything about politics - I just said you were wrong about the length of MotoGP races and Daytona 200 stints and that your math is bad. You might want to try disagreeing with something I actually said instead of beating up strawmen. "Why would they choose to change the 200 from the superbikes to FX except for rider safety? It certainly isn't to fill seats because attendance has not been good since the change." There are a host of theories about why they made the change, but we'll never really know because the decision was made behind closed doors by people we all should by now know aren't exactly open about their motives. "Tell Ben Spies that there is no reason that Superbike shouldn't be running the 200. I'm sure he'll be glad to educate you on exactly how well the tires hold up at speed." I don't know why you think you can speak for Ben Spies, but even after that tire failure in testing he did race his Superbike at Daytona so must have thought the tires would hold up at speed ok. It's not like he sat out the race or even ran a slow pace to be safe and collect points - he raced hard and damn near won the thing. So he presumably felt that his tires were ok. Now, if you would be so kind, explain why a tire which is safe enough for a 15 lap Daytona Superbike race is not safe enough for a 15 lap stint of a Daytona Superbike 200. I'm all ears. | ||
| Diablobrian |
Most teams did not go with a 3 stop strategy in superbike, when a team did it was considered a pretty bi gamble, on tires and fuel. At the end of 15 laps those tires are cooked and well beyond the point of "going off". I'm certain the racers would prefer a shorter race, but they don't get a lot of say so in the length of the race until someone gets seriously hurt. \ Tire technology changes week by week, and there may be changes ahead that will make it viable to put the superbikes back in the 200, but I wouldn't hold my breath. What exactly do you think was the political motivation behind the change? Where's the pay-off? Would it be Honda owning the class the last two years? that's a possibility. The problem with 4 classes and 4 major manufacturers is that they can each choose a class as their own and claim to be #1 in all their ad copy. Personnaly I'd like to see the AMA go to a 2 class operation. Those classes being FX and superbike. I know that would be hard on a lot of privateers, but it would really make the racing competetive. But that's just me. | ||
| Diablobrian |
Why do I think I can speak for Ben Spies? Because I talked to him about it at Fontana shortly after it happened. I guess that's pretty thin reasoning though, since I know what his personal opinion is. He races under contract and is well paid to take risks that I certainly would not. (Message edited by diablobrian on August 07, 2006) | ||
| Curtyd |
Me, me, me... I suggested it was for political/marketing motives. But for all you XBRR experts, "Riddle me this, Batman..." Why is the thing so gosh darn quiet? and... Why did the chain slap so violently you could see it flopping up and down from the grandstands? Is that still how they run them or was that part of the early issues? | ||
| Diablobrian |
There were teams trying to stretch to a 2 stop strategy too and that could have led to disaster on national television. Maybe good for momentary ratings and sound bytes, but bad for the sport. | ||
| Whodom |
Why is the thing so gosh darn quiet? Maybe they're making up for the race XB12R's of last year?  A friend of mine saw a couple of the Buells run at Road Atlanta last year. He rides an Aprilia Mille with aftermarket pipes and takes great pleasure in setting off car alarms with them. HE went off about how freaking loud the Buells were last year in the race. | ||
| Ceejay |
less chain slack=more clutch issues???? guessing of course, as I've never even seen an XBRR let alone call myself an expert. Hell I haven't even ridden nor seen up close an XB in two years... | ||
| Curtyd |
The political angle is they really are trying to help BUELL/HD get going in roadracing in the USA. AMA and HD are TIGHT. like partners for nearly 80 years. The ill-fated-managed-run or whatever VR1000 DID pull in fans from Main Streeet, that and "Harley Heaven" on the back chicane. I saw the numbers go up for those years. That's why I don't understand the quiet thing. The draw to that crowd is the V-Twin straight pipes. I admit too, I loved to hear the DUCATIs running up against the Superbike I-4's with their big "WHUMP, WHUMP" sounds. It was fun to hear them coming and watch them. They were also pretty fast there for a few years. So why is the BUELL so quiet, or maybe the exhaust is being tested for a later street application, heh? YIPPEE. | ||
| Diablobrian |
The reason it's so quiet is that a lot of tracks it will be raced at have noise limits and there were problems last year at some tracks with the XB thunderbikes. The Beson/rhinehart exhaust was too loud and they remedied the problem. I for one would love to have a pipe that will flow enough to hit 150 hp, and be that quiet. I hate noise for it's own sake. | ||
| Pioggia_di_parata |
Diablobrian, I wrote: "I await your rebuttal to that point, without red herrings about what other reasons there might have been to change the 200 to FX. Just a simple explanation of how a tire which is safe enough for a 15 lap Superbike race is not safe enough for a 15 lap stint of an endurance race." Can't do it, huh? | ||
| Diablobrian |
I've already done it. The reason was because teams were trying to stretch further on those tires. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=158664&post=715005#PO ST715005 | ||
| Pioggia_di_parata |
That message doesn't at all address the question of how a tire which is safe for a 15 lap Daytona sprint race isn't safe for a 15 lap stint of a Superbike Daytona 200 -- it just sidesteps the question by saying that some teams might make unsafe decisions about how long to run the tire. That's the last thread of your weak argument breaking down, because there's nothing to keep an FX team from making the unsafe decision to try to run the whole 200 on one tire. If it's just about teams making unsafe choices about how long to run a tire, the AMA could have instituted a required minimum number of pit stops for the 200 rather than changing what class bikes race it. You were wrong about the length of MotoGP races, you can't do math, and you've now completely backpedaled about the danger of running Superbike tires at Daytona.  | ||
| Blake |
In addition to changing the 200 from Superbike to Formula Xtreme, the motorcycle road racing course was also significantly reconfigured to eliminate the entire run around the high banking from NASCAR turns 1 and 2. I consider it a valid point that the AMA went overboard implementing both changes to the racing at Daytona. Seems to me that either one would have sufficed. Extra safety conscious? France family marketing? Both? Pioggia, You now have your explanation. | ||
| Blake |
Back on topic... Curt, How long does it take a bike starting in 18th spot to cross the finish line, and how far behind is the 18th starting bike likely to be as the "conga line" of racers settles-in during the first lap? There is a reason why starting towards the front is desirable.  Two Buell top tens in a row! Wooohooo! Things are starting to get very interesting in Formula Xtreme! | ||
| Curtyd |
They are not 55 seconds behind in the "conga line" usually, HEY, I hope they are up and coming, too. Never said any different despite the overzealous "back-hand" from the "youngins." I just acknowledge there is a ways to go. Remember the old line, "WINNING is the ONLY thing", that's why they are called RACES. |
