| Author | Message | ||
     Jscott |
In spite of the disappointments, we have all been witness to the bikes potential. We have seen McWilliams at times look brilliant and Crevier was apparently making strides before his misfortunes. What are your thoughts on Buells plan forward for AMA FX? Richard Cronrath had asked us if we would like to see all those Buell teams at Daytona and then see a hit or miss Buell effort afterward. I think part of his concern has come true. Do you think that the best way to develop a bike is to have so many different teams with various amounts of funding involved or one to two teams with solid development riders getting the bulk of support from the factory? I understand that the XBRR's mission is to have prebuilt competetive bikes in the hands of privateers. Wouldn't you want a more concise plan with a consistant team(s) developing the bike for future privateers? This post is to not be critical, just to start a discussion. I am very excited about Buells direction, just a little puzzled as to the route they are taking. What do you guys think. By the where is Ciccotto? P.S. Pioggia_di_parata, I don't think you are a jerk. Feel free to participate. | ||
| Chadhargis |
Didn't Ciccotto crash and injure himself? | ||
| Mikej |
"Race on Sunday, Sell on Monday" This may or may not be the direction one path is going, but it is a direction some folks have been asking for. Put something on the track that an individual can benefit from and buy comparable parts for their own personal bike either for racing, citizen track days, or street use. EPA mandates are monkeying with that concept to a little extent though. I can't walk into a H-D shop and buy a flat tracker, but I can buy a Destroyer drag bike if I had the change. Ciccatto might be the one who crashed and injured his hand or wrist. | ||
| Jscott |
After Ciccotto's dismal Daytona experience he has gone MIA. Hale crashed recently and Higbee injured his wrist last year. | ||
| M1combat |
I think that Buell is going in exactly the right direction and are on the correct path. They have no interest in a "factory" team due to the fact that the factory teams are always stealing trophies from the rest of the guys out there working there asses off and getting it done with less money. The fact is... McWilliams is a development rider. A good one. | ||
| Jscott |
I agree that McWilliams would be the perfect development rider. I just wish their was funding for him to ride the entire season. I think FX and SuperBike are the perfect classes for true Factory efforts. I think SuperSport and SuperStock should be left to the privateers and satellite teams. | ||
| Pioggia_di_parata |
Jscott asks: 'Do you think that the best way to develop a bike is to have so many different teams with various amounts of funding involved or one to two teams with solid development riders getting the bulk of support from the factory?' It's clear at this point that Buell was caught by surprise with all the failures at Daytona. They really thought the bike was closer to ready than it was. Here's an illustrative pre-Daytona quote from Erik Buell himself (March 2006 issue of RoadRacingWorld magazine) - "There was a debate on whether we maybe better skip Daytona, and the answer was, 'We're not going to skip Daytona. We're going to go run our best. We know we have a reliable bike now. We know we can finish, and that's a big part of the story at Daytona. So we'll take a run at it. We may not be running in the front pack at first but maybe by mid-to-late-race we will be. We need to run. We need to go do this for racing.'" So the zero finishers out of four starters had to be an ugly eye-opener for everybody involved with the project. When you go in with a "we know we can finish" mindset and not a single one of your bikes finish, you really have to take a step back and reevaluate where you are at. (And for those of you already starting to type up responses about how they were just "minor" failures, I point you to the wisdom of M1combat: "I'm a firm believer in the fact that there are no excuses in racing. You win or you lose." Four-for-four DNF's can't be considered an acceptable result no matter how you spin it.) Given those Daytona results, I think they did the right thing when they decided to skip a couple rounds and work on making the bike as reliable as they thought it already was. With the real-world development of the bike proving to be more of a challenge than Buell expected, I think it would make sense for them to have just a couple of riders/teams working on the development process and to make sure it's the same guys at every race. Having so many different racers swapping around on so few bikes is likely to create a situation where they have trouble finding a clear direction forward. There are still only the original four XBRR's in existence, right? Maybe a good plan would be to select two experienced riders who have good skills at analyzing the bike's performance and communicating that to the crew, and give them each two of the bikes. That way they'd have backups so they wouldn't lose so much practice time in the event of a crash or mechanical failure, and they'd also be able to test setup changes back-to-back. | ||
| Jscott |
I think Pioggia_di_parata is on the money about having a more focused centralized team to go forward. | ||
| M1combat |
I agree with almost all of that post. Thanks... I "think" there are five XBRR's now... Maybe six. As far as having experienced riders that can give good feedback... They're doing exactly that... Bemisderfer... Hale... Crevier... MCWILLIAMS!!!... Ciccoto... Higbee... You may not know that Higbee is sort of Buells test rider (along with a couple other people, including Erik (who isn't a slouch on a bike by any means)). They have some excellent feedback... They'll be putting it all into the package as they can. I completely agree that the four DNF's were a pill to swallow. I was at the garage within minutes of McWilliams' DNF. I watched him talk with the crew and then walk to his trailer. They had all swallowed a pill but every single person there including Brankin, Ramone and I had the same feelings... Figure out what happened, fix it, get back on the track. That's racing. Notice the period. That's EXACTLY what Buell did. You CAN'T expect any more. NONE. There is NOTHING more to do. The comment in RRW was made, I believe, after the TWS test where they put more than a Daytona race distance on at LEAST one bike. No major failures (or minor ones from what I hear) at all. They had reason to believe that they had a good chance at finishing. That said... A racer should always believe they can win. If they don't... They probably can't. That comment seems perfectly acceptable given the response to not finishing. Go make it better... Try again. I have a feeling that it'll be a long time before the key players get burned out. When they do... I assure you that there will be a new person DIEING to take their place with fresh ideas  . That's racing. I don't believe that Erik can be made to give up. /EDIT - Jscott... They DO have a focused/centralized team that IS going forwards... It's that they are focused on developing the BIKE. Not a race team. They'll let everyone else figure out the race team part and they'll get the bike as right as they can. IMO, that's the right way to do it. It's fair to the privateer. It's honorable. That said... There are classes that take a full on factory effort. (Message edited by M1Combat on June 06, 2006) | ||
| Jscott |
Was Hals involved at all during Road America? They seem to have the most experience with the effort, yet seemingly were absent (in there backyard). Maybe they assisted in the pits for Crevier, who knows. | ||
| Pioggia_di_parata |
M1combat sez: 'As far as having experienced riders that can give good feedback... They're doing exactly that... Bemisderfer... Hale... Crevier... MCWILLIAMS!!!... Ciccoto... Higbee...' My point was that in my (admittedly meaningless) opinion, choosing two of those six guys would help focus the development. Too many cooks spoil the broth and all that. It's a lesson HRC learned after they lost Rossi and tried to let six guys develop the RC211V the next year. They ended up chasing their tails around in circles as they got conflicting feedback. The result was not good. | ||
| M1combat |
Good point, but it seems that it would be wise to take the lion's share of the feedback from McWilliams and Crevier... It seems to me that they are mostly supporting the other riders and learning more about the bike from their races. In any case... It still seems to me that they are on exactly the right track. They are a small team. They'll get there. One of my friends was a race engine engineer for Yamaha for a number of years. From what he tells me of their engine dev program Buell is running a fairly small operation. I think they're doing a bang up job so far. I don't think we're seeing the full might of the RR yet, but we will. I think a couple teams need to land some real sponsorship. Something like Home Depot, UPS, Playboy or something. A place that can throw a half million into the effort and advertise. I understand that the results so far aren't worth it, but you gotta spend money to make money. That's what Buell is doing right now. Supporting the bike and teams until the team can land a great deal based on results. | ||
| Jscott |
If Hale can get healthy and if Cronrath can get along better with HD/Buell, he would be a great development rider as well. He is a former GP rider also. Ducati just landed Oakley as a sponsor for their MotoGP and WSBK efforts. http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=26008 As the bike improves I am sure the chances of big sponsorship improves as well. | ||
| M1combat |
Hmmm.... Maybe we should all put our heads together and figure out who we would like to see as a viable big"ish" sponsor... Then send them a deluge of e-mails asking them to contact the team we all think is the most deserving and ask them to sponsor? We need to bitch at Speed TV and tell them to put FX on sometime on the weekend so we can watch it too... | ||
| Jscott |
Speed TV seems to be a lost cause, but we can't bitch too much its all we got. | ||
| Jscott |
I think HD/Buell needs to keep their eyes on Danny Eslick and Alstair Seeley as potential prosepects. | ||
| Pioggia_di_parata |
M1combat sez: 'One of my friends was a race engine engineer for Yamaha for a number of years. From what he tells me of their engine dev program Buell is running a fairly small operation.' I don't know exactly what would be considered a small operation vs a large one, but according to the articles in the already-quoted March 2006 RoadRacingWorld they made extensive use of Harley's huge engineering resources. (If you don't have a copy of that issue of the magazine you should really get one. There's like 10 pages on the XBRR and it's all positive - you'd love it. ) Here's some stuff from it about the engine development: 'Higher levels of engine durability and performance were the key elements in making the XB-RR a reality, and Buell Motorcycle Company founder, Chairman and Chief Technical Officer Erik Buell freely admitted that he needed the engineering help of parent company Harley-Davidson to meet these goals. Harley-Davidson responded by assigning the project to a small but dedicated --and motorcycle-passionate-- group of young engineers led by Jamie McNaughton. [paragraph about McNaughton's history and experience omitted] "The two biggest things were improve the durability of the power train and improve the performance," said McNaughton when asked about the goals assigned to his team about two years ago. McNaughton's team started by establishing a baseline on the Terry Galagan-built engines (short-stroke and long-stroke) Ciccotto was running in AMA Pro Thunder, establishing the short-comings those engines had and proposing changes to resolve those issues.' Then it gets into all kinds of detail about the engine internals. Fascinating stuff for gearheads like myself, sleep-inducing for everybody else I suppose. It also talks a little about the development process: 'Finite element analysis (FEA) work, which is a detailed computer analysis of a part or a design put under stress, resulted in modified aluminum crankcases that are not only stronger but lighter. [...]' 'FEA work also led to new, beefier, forged steel connecting rods to provide more of the strength the Buell team was looking for. [...]' So if you have a mental image of Erik and a small team working in a shed like John Britten or something, that was definitely not the case. The engine team made good use of HD's computers and development processes. | ||
| M1combat |
Oh of course . I didn't mean back yard engineering by any means... I meant that there probably weren't 90 people working three shifts is all. | ||
| Diablobrian |
There were a total of 8 XBRR's at Daytona. They assembled a few from parts during the ASRA weekend while we looked on. There are at least 3 more sitting in the factory right now. | ||
| Jimidan |
Urinating on the Parade sez: "M1combat sez: 'As far as having experienced riders that can give good feedback... They're doing exactly that... Bemisderfer... Hale... Crevier... MCWILLIAMS!!!... Ciccoto... Higbee...' My point was that in my (admittedly meaningless) opinion, choosing two of those six guys would help focus the development. Too many cooks spoil the broth and all that. It's a lesson HRC learned after they lost Rossi and tried to let six guys develop the RC211V the next year. They ended up chasing their tails around in circles as they got conflicting feedback. The result was not good." I would think that the current status of the RC211V proves exactly the opposite...they are very successful this year as a result of all of those teams working on the development. One cannot discount Rossi's contribution to any bike he rides...and I would like to see him on the duck next year. Fantasy: He could make the XBRR talk in short order...wouldn't that be a hoot? I think the same rationale that Honda used will work to bring the XBRR to fruition faster. This thing needs track time and lots of it to sort it out, and with multiple teams that can be accomplished in much less time than if one or two teams are doing it...based on miles per month if nothing else. They probably have a couple of riders who they are most dependant on for future development, but the changes they are making now are not major. I think Buell is doing exactly what this bike and multiple riders need. After watching Steve ride the thing at RA, it was obvious that he had made great strides and that the bike was much better than at Daytona. Of course, it would be nice if McWilliams continues to race it too (even in the Euro), but he is a busy man. We will see. They need just a little luck, which has still been totally lacking. REgarding that comment about there are no excuses in racing...what is up with that? There are excuses in everything. The question is not whether there are excuses, but rather are they valid. I think in this case they are. jimidan | ||
| Pioggia_di_parata |
Jimidan sez: "I would think that the current status of the RC211V proves exactly the opposite...they are very successful this year as a result of all of those teams working on the development." That might make sense if there were a bunch of teams working on RC211V development this year, but that isn't what's going on. Honda was unsuccessful with the RC211V in 2004 and early 2005 when they were trying to let too many riders develop it as they waited to see who would be their best bet for the championship. Towards the end of 2005 they settled on Melandri and Hayden, narrowed the focus, and got the bike dialed in. The bike those two guys ended up developing, which was so strong at the end of 2005, is the same bike that everyone at Honda except for Nicky is riding right now. The success of that bike this year is more likely due to the focused work at the end of last season than the "too many cooks" period of 2004 when the bike never really did come good. They learned their lesson, too. The current development work is being handled by just Nicky (and non-racing testriders back in Japan of course), while all the other Honda riders just keep racing the bike already known to be good. HRC isn't taking development input from a half dozen racers any more because that misguided plan cost them at least a year of floundering. "REgarding that comment about there are no excuses in racing...what is up with that?" You'll have to take that up with M1combat - it was his line, not mine. | ||
| Trojan |
Of course, it would be nice if McWilliams continues to race it too (even in the Euro), We would love to see the XBRR race over here in the UK, after all Warr's are a London dealer and it would sense for them to race in their home market surely? The problem is that there just isn't a suitable class for the XBRR to race in here in England. We don't have FX over here, so the only class remotely suitable would be Sound of Thunder. This is only run at club level and would mean running against ex-superbike Ducati 999/998 etc. Whether the XBRR would be competitive is debatable but I would say it probably would. The downside is that this series gets absolutely no press coverage and no TV, so would Warr's (or any other UK dealer) want to front up the budget to race in a series that nobody outside the racing community really sees? The bike wouldn't be eligible for UK Thunderbikes because of the power to weight ratio rules, so couldn't race in this series without some serious detuning. Even then I don't think that the UK organisers would be as accomodating regarding the 'modifications to a road bike' as the AMA have been. In addition to racing the Buell Jeremy is also contracted to BMW to test their alleged forthcoming Moto GP bike, and may even end up racing it, so he just may not have the time to race an XBRR full time unfortunately. Another major factor in the UK is that the franchised dealers (with the exception of Warrs) and Buell UK themselves show no taste or commitment for road racing of any kind. I approached every UK dealership during last winter in an attempt to encourage some to run bikes in the UK Thunderbike series, These would be just modified XB9 & 12 models requiring a much lower budget than the XBRR, but there is not one UK dealer willing to run a team (or support a bike). Buell UK were also given the opportunity to sponsor the whole series but declined. The US Thunderbike series seems to be dominated by Buell entries, with a few noteable exceptions such as Ed Key (SV650) and Nate Kern (BMW 1100). Over here the situation is reversed, with only 2 Buells in the whole series (our XB12 and an S1W). Until Buell UK decide to make a positive move regarding racing I can't see the situation changing either. | ||
| Jlnance |
Regarding that comment about there are no excuses in racing...what is up with that? I wont put words in the original posters mouth, but I do agree with the statement. Racing is a sport. We should all expect and demand good sportsmanship. When someone wins a race, it means that at least for that instant they are the best. It takes a hell of a lot of work to win. When someone wins, they deserve recognition for that work. To make excuses belittles their achievment. All the pissing and moaning by Honda before Daytona is an example of this. In effect they are saying "even if you win, we aren't going to acknowlege you." For Honda, racing is advertising more than sport, so we should perhaps not be supprised. But as fans we shouldn't tollerate such behavior. And the flip side of that is that when you loose, you shouldn't go whine about why life isn't fair. You should acknowlege that, at least for today, they are better than you. This isn't to say you shouldn't look for the reasons you lost. There are always reasons why you didn't win. Reasons should be identified and fixed. Thats really what the whole game is about after all. But a reason is not an excuse. | ||
| Jimidan |
Pissin' on my Brigade sez: "That might make sense if there were a bunch of teams working on RC211V development this year, but that isn't what's going on." That is not what I was contending. I said that the success of the RC211V was because they had so much development on the bike with all of the different teams working on it since its inception. The bike is very well sorted now, so why would it need all of the teams working on the "development"? Pissin' cont.: "Honda was unsuccessful with the RC211V in 2004 and early 2005 when they were trying to let too many riders develop it as they waited to see who would be their best bet for the championship. Towards the end of 2005 they settled on Melandri and Hayden, narrowed the focus, and got the bike dialed in. The bike those two guys ended up developing, which was so strong at the end of 2005, is the same bike that everyone at Honda except for Nicky is riding right now. The success of that bike this year is more likely due to the focused work at the end of last season than the "too many cooks" period of 2004 when the bike never really did come good." I didn't think it was possible to "never really come good"...everytime I have done it over the last 50 years, it was always great, and sometimes ecstatic.  So, the Honda bike hasn't been a dominant force since its inception? Hmmm. I don't know what I was watching, but I though it was the SPEED channel...I guess it must have been reruns of Bonanza, where Vali was played by Pernell Roberts, Nicky was played by Michael Landon. Who was the fat guy playing? Let's be real here...with the notable exception of Vali, who could dominate on anything out there (or a pogo stick), the Honda bikes have been the most dominant brand since hitting the track, especially with Vali on board. Accident? Lucky? I don't think so. "Just Pissin' cont.: "They learned their lesson, too. The current development work is being handled by just Nicky (and non-racing testriders back in Japan of course), while all the other Honda riders just keep racing the bike already known to be good. HRC isn't taking development input from a half dozen racers any more because that misguided plan cost them at least a year of floundering." Yeah, they've taught the lesson pretty well too. I hardly think Honda has been floundering for the last two years (poor Honda...can we have a few moments of silence for the RC211V). Just look at the results, 5 bikes in the top 8 in 2005. Except for Rossi (who could win the thing on a pogo stick), Honda did very well, thank you. This says most of it. http://www.motorsportsetc.com/points/05gp_pt.htm and: ""REgarding that comment about there are no excuses in racing...what is up with that?" You'll have to take that up with M1combat - it was his line, not mine." Actually, I was taking it up with M1Combat...I just didn't call him by name. Sorry for the confusion. jimidan | ||
| Rc4man |
Enough with the RC211V already. This isn't "he sez, she sez" I've not been by in a while and am curious about what happened to the XBRR at Daytona and what has been or is being done to rectify it, should that be the choice. I am hoping it is. The initial speed trials and practice sessions were very impressive and encouraging on multiple fronts. The DNF's were very disheartening and there has been little to boost morale since then. This is just one enthusiast that would like to see the Cinderella story come to fruition. BTW, is it possible to get a copy of the Road Racing World article mentioned. I'd very much like to read it. (Message edited by rc4man on June 07, 2006) | ||
| M1combat |
Well... I don't think they'll be going home at midnight . Since then the RR has been progressing nicely. WRT the excuse comment... I'll certainly stand behind it . You win or you lose in racing. That's it. That said... If you lose there are typically some valid reasons, but to me excuses are something different. "My visor fogged so I had to lift on the final straight" is one. When that happens you keep it twisted and try to keep the sound of the other engine somewhere near you. We're on the final stretch here... Never lift unless there's a life at stake (unless it just your own). Failed part? Not an excuse. Oil filter not tightened? Not an excuse. Rider not good enough? Not an excuse. | ||
| Jimidan |
Excuses come in two varieties: Valid Lame | ||
| Josh_cox |
As per the problems with the bikes... I think Buell is doing exactly what they should be doing in their situation. Test the bikes until the failures stop (which apparently they have). Then, focus on delivering them to the racing teams. We might be impatient, but it would suck a lot worse to get a bike that will break all season long. This year is just a test and tune year for everyone anyway. I really don't expect to see any championship contenders for a year at least. | ||
| Diablobrian |
The XBRR program is progressing incrementally at each race. They are improving each time they go out. This is exactly what racing is all about. | ||
| Mbsween |
M1/Pioggia I saw two ready to go XBRRs at the factory and a heap of engines, a crate full of Ohlins forks and a whole buch more. Erik indicated that body work is the gating factor on production. I think they'll have plenty of them out there shortly. (Message edited by mbsween on June 09, 2006) |
