| Author | Message | ||
     Jimidan |
Anony sez: "When I raced Ducatis there were cool guys involved with the brand. Now it appears to be greatly infiltrated by rude jerks and liers." Ah, there are still cool guys racing Ducks, and riding them too. I have both bikes and enjoy them thoroughly, and have met many more. One of my best buddies has a purple S2 like mine and a 916. Most folks on the Speedzilla Ducati site are really nice and helpful. Neil and the Bostrums are the nicest guys you would ever want to meet. I got to talk to Regis Laconi at VIR a couple of years ago and he was a super nice guy (although his English not so good), and even posed on his bike in street clothes for me to photograph him. I didn't know this was going to blow up like it did...sorry. jimidan | ||
| Jeffb |
HD did sell a VR to the public, or at least 1. S&S Cycle owns one and still has the full street legal body work including headlight and turnsignals. It was raced at Bonneville and currently sits in the museum at S&S. I know a few people here have seen it and Pam has even sat on it. Jeff | ||
| Sp2pilot |
Annon, as you are unable to even identify yourself you calling me a liar is quite sad. The 8500 RPM figure is really quite funny. The motor can and will rev beyond 10,000 RPM so backing it down to a operating maximum of 9500 is not only doable it is probably already instituted. As none of the FX Buell teams are making any public demonstrations of what their package is actually doing arguing about it is ridiculous. The rules of the FX class state that all designs are to be street derived with production frames and a homogolated design with a min number of available street legal examples to compete. So how exactly is the Buell XBRR legal under these rules? It is a 2007 model? well why is it competing in the 2006 season? How is this not coercion if not outright sanctioned cheating? I actually want to see the Motor Company produce a competitive sport bike and have for many years been a massive supporter of the program. I am friends with the first Factory HD Rider that competed on the VR. I just spent the last weekend working his pit at Infineon, We were pitted right next to the Buell team. In fact we loaned them a couple tools. I do not see how I am the bad guy for pointing out the facts of this debacle. | ||
| M2nc |
Not to step in the middle of it, but AMA is trying to get participation of other brands up. Buells at AMA races mean more participation in the race, more competition, more spectators and more success for the series. Come on, look what the four Japanese makers are doing. Each has its pet series so they don't have to compete heads up with each other and they can all claim to be the fastest. Sorry, give me a stock Yamaha or Suzuki and I will kick a CBR's ass, but the two let Honda have the series while they play on other series. It's boring to watch, spectators are down and the class is heading the way of CART. AMA is stirring the pot not because it favors Buells, but what Buells bring, diversity and an American contender to an American series. Honda is pissed because FX is their pet series. They bought it and want to use it to advertise, "We are number one!" So they are kicking up the controversy where Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawazaki are all saying, "If the Buells dominate, then we will have problems with it". Of course it is not their Pet series. You know AMA should be smiling with the controversy because with that comes attention of media, which gets people interested, which gets people watching. I was at Daytona and can say that the Buells are competitive, but no way dominant. So breath and enjoy the show. | ||
| Imonabuss |
An XBRR motor will rev well over 10,000 rpm? Man, you are smokin' some serious shit. | ||
| M1combat |
I'm breathing and I'm enjoying the show  . I'm also going to lay out the facts as I see them where Buell is concerned. I've got no trouble with any issues Buell may have. They just need to be actual issues as opposed to internet trash talking... That's all. Sp2 - Why pick nits man? '07 '06? Why? So the frame seems to be stamped with an '07 MY vin... So what. HD's release schedule and the AMA season don't really meld that well... whatever. Daytona was in February... Trust me, I was there. February of '06. I took a look at the vin on one of McWilliams' bikes and it seemed low enough in the production run that it should have been '07. Now that I really think about it though... They may have grabbed a chassis early on in the '06 MY cycle. My bad. It seemed to be an XB12R frame though, just with Ulysses/SS frame rails welded in to add fuel capacity (that's allowed). I won't just bash you or whatever you ride or whatever you've done for the sake of doing it. I will, however, tell you what I know of the XB. You were the one talking trash about it's design principals. I didn't bash anything. I pointed out differences and that's it. Please tell me where I was wrong... "I do not see how I am the bad guy for pointing out the facts of this debacle." It's not that exactly... It's just that the fact that you call it a debacle points at which direction you are approaching it from. Why be that way? Why not say "Hey... An American manufacturer has finally been allowed to field not only the bike they WANT to, but a competitive one at that." I think you probably understand completely that when you change the configuration of an engine, you'll need to change it's displacement in order to maintain a level playing field. "I didn't know this was going to blow up like it did...sorry. " I don't see it as having blown up exactly , but maybe I'm just used to bigger explosions . I figure as long as a person can keep their mind open and honest then I can have a good conversation with someone who doesn't agree with me. I'm all for it. I've just grown very weary of people who don't really understand the concepts behind the engineering that they bash. That's not to say that all concepts are good just because they exist, but to me it seems that Buell has stepped out of the box AND done it right . If someone can explain to me why that's not the case... I'm all ears. No one has yet been able to do that though. I'm not saying that there aren't other configurations out there that are exceptional bits of thought and engineering... I'm only saying that the XBRR is another one . All too many people have a good deal of trouble accepting that. Where AMA racing is concerned thay have a tendency to fall into the "Well... It's not legal." rut... Well... It is so . People complain that the other manufacturers are getting the shaft... NO ONE has ever been able to fully, coherently and logically explain why. I'm waiting patiently. | ||
| M1combat |
"The motor can and will rev beyond 10,000 RPM so backing it down to a operating maximum of 9500 is not only doable" So I'm to assume you know exactly how much lift they're using in the cam? You know the seat pressure even? Damn... I KNEW I shoulda went to Sears Point... Oh BTW... They sold 50 street legal VR1K's as I recall  . (Message edited by M1Combat on May 25, 2006) | ||
| Outrider |
M1...Tell me more about the 50 street legal VR1000's that were sold. Was that here in the US or in Poland where they were registered or whatever you want to call it? The reason I ask as at the time all I remember reading is that the bike could not be registered in the US and Poland was the first Country HD could find to register it in. Thanks in advance for the update. I just want to update my information. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Outrider, LOL. I forgot about the Polish registration. Also, for all of those Dean Adams and Superbikeplanet haters: Do a search of Superbikeplanet for all the times they have mocked the Foggy Petronas for not being truely homologated. It is not just Buell that gets ribbed for "rules interpretation". | ||
| Brucelee |
Obviously, the RR is legal, as the AMA says it is. That is what defines legal, when the authorizing body says so. Did I miss something here? Oh, and the front brake works just fine. | ||
| Sp2pilot |
Baaaaaaaaaaa Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa If HD would spend half or what they do now on their development of the next great cruiser and just took a hard look at a performance Vee Twin and allowed Mr. Buell to build a forward thinking outside the box chassis around it, I think the AMA could quit hand holding the Motor Company and let the world see that an American Bike builder can compete head to head with anything out there. Making Eric Build bikes around the Sportster motor is like making Da Vinci paint with sticks and mud. | ||
| Spike |
Abandon the debate and resort to calling us sheep? Wow. Who knew a troll would do something so drastic? If you don't like being referred to as a troll, stop acting like one. Stick to the facts and let go of the name calling. You mentioned the RR frame. As stated everywhere, it's an XB frame with larger side panels welded on. Since the frame is also the fuel tank and it is legal to run a larger fuel tank, why would the RR frame not be legal? If you could prove that the RR frame had been modified to improve its performance beyond adding fuel, you'd have a case right there. Can you do that for us? If not, can you admit the frame is legal and move on to the next point? I'm tired of hearing the same faulty logic brought back up over and over again. | ||
| Imonabuss |
Yeah, guess where the sheep are...munching in the import paddock. "Honda is great, Honda is all-knowing, lead us to the slaughter..." The AMA didn't write the rules for H-D, for heaven's sake, it wrote the rules to get something besides the same old 600 four cylinders in. They want Buell, BMW, TRiumph, Moto Guzzi, etc. But the sheep won't listen, they just look in the same place. | ||
| M1combat |
You apparently don't understand. No offense, but that doesn't surprise me in the least. People tend to run around in flocks and you seem to be one of them... Buell doesn't want to be too deep in HD's pockets. Buell wants to be a successful company in their OWN right and use the proceeds to go racing etc. They would rather use their get out of jail card (close tie to HD) to get out of jail as opposed to engineer a new engine. If Buell keeps asking for stock profits from investors they'll be kicked outta the house. Buell and HD are not the same company. That said, HD is VERY interested in seeing Buell do well, but luckily they are willing to let Buell be run as a seperate entity. If they weren't we'd have something like a V-Rod... Ever watch the discovery documentary on that bike? IF they allowed Mr. Buell to build a forward thinking outside the box chassis? First of all... LOL. Second... You do realize that many very experienced folks believe that the XB is in the top three to five best handling production bikes ever made right? You do realize that the XB12R is very close to the same weight as a modern 1000 but the engine is in the area of 50lbs heavier right? You do realize that the XB runs a VERY radical geometry package and is still about as stable as they come right? You do realize that when you crash an XB it's typically a LOT less expensive to fix it right? Do you even have any idea why the cooling system works (and I don't mean Delta T...). Have you ever ridden one and felt how comfortable they are on long trips compared to other sport bikes? Maybe you just don't understand... I wouldn't blame you. The XB is designed to dominate canyon roads (you know, those fun ones that go right and left all the time). It does. No, I don't care if you believe me. I'm not saying I'm faster than you by any means. I'm saying that I'd put money on the fact that I could get through the spars quicker on an XB12 than just about anything else (including 1000cc liter bikes... there's just not enough straight to use the power). (Message edited by M1Combat on May 26, 2006) | ||
| Bikertrash05 |
And, Bikertrash, Erik made a prototype chassis for the VR 1n 1988. That motor and the VRSC have nothing in common. Nothing?     I think I understand what you are trying to say, but being a VRod and Buell fan, I can't help but wonder how much Buell could improve the "Street Rod". | ||
| Brucelee |
"I think I understand what you are trying to say, but being a VRod and Buell fan, I can't help but wonder how much Buell could improve the "Street Rod"." I love the street rod. However, to be PERFECT, it would have to be: About $11,995. Weigh about 450-500 lbs wet. Be about 4 inches shorter. If so, I would be the first guy in line. IMHO! | ||
| Anonymous |
Brucelee, That can't be done with the V-Rod engine, which is why the comment above to Bikertrash. The V-Rod engine was initiated as a Buell engine, but H-D decided they wanted a modern cruiser more. They made the engine much bigger, much heavier and much more expensive, which worked for their motorcycle. Unfortunately it didn't work as a Buell (which would be like your description but probably 40 lbs lighter and another few inches shorter). | ||
| Sp2pilot |
For the record I gave Props to Buell's forward thinking designs even stating that the thing that holds him back is the powerplant. If Eric started with a blank piece of paper and drew up his "Ideal" design do you really think it would be powered by this boat anchor? I applaud the outside the box approach and understand the only way to go down a new road is to turn off the one you are on. But if you are going to go down a new road taking the old asphalt with you is really going to slow you down. I have ridden quite a few of Eric’s creations and I hate the engines. They take a light handling flickable bike and turn it into a paint shaker every time I come to a stop. I rode with one of the best Sportbike riders in our area for years and he had a very eclectic mix of bikes from a 888 Corsa to a Vincent Black lightning restored to concourse condition. He also owned a couple current Japanese sportbikes. I rode a RC 51. On most of our rides he would use his Buell. He loved it and that validated it in my eyes. The only downside was the amount of down time we had when his bike just decided not to make it back home. He had the exhaust fall off, the rear Shock unbolted itself and on one occasion it just shut down and refused to start. We spent 2 hours on the side of the road waiting for his Wife to show up with his truck to haul it home. We got it tied down in side the truck and I jumped up and on a lark turned the key and hit the starter and the thing fired right up. That might be the funniest and saddest moment ever. He bought the xb12 when it first came out and let me tear it up on one of our favorite twisty roads. I was damn impressed with how fun it was to toss around. it felt lighter then my 600 race bike and had a really great sound when I would roll on the throttle out of a tight second gear turn. I slammed into the rev limiter all the time, (I do this every time I ride any Buell. My weakness not the bikes) But again I hated it at an Idle and could never really get happy with the brakes. The Clutch pull was better then the Lightning he had but still heavy for a sport bike. (Hell it would be heavy for a fork lift) They are good bikes and deserve respect but they are not the Ultimate canyon bike not even close. If it lost 75 pounds and gained 30 hp it just might be. | ||
| Brucelee |
" If it lost 75 pounds and gained 30 hp it just might be." So the XB should weight 315 lbs dry? Hmmm, what reality are you living in? BTW-I don't find that my XB9 shakes all that much at idle. It is very smooth at 2K and up also. Perhaps YOU are the one shaking? I agree with you that the motor could use 30HP and I expect that is in the future for us as a result of the RR engine development. Should be a easy layup based on what the race motor is developing. I would also agree with others here that your main purpose is to provoke, which you do rather well. Having said that, I (hopefully we) will write you off as the TROLL that you are. Good bye! | ||
| Brucelee |
"That can't be done with the V-Rod engine, which is why the comment above to Bikertrash. The V-Rod engine was initiated as a Buell engine, but H-D decided they wanted a modern cruiser more. They made the engine much bigger, much heavier and much more expensive, which worked for their motorcycle. Unfortunately it didn't work as a Buell (which would be like your description but probably 40 lbs lighter and another few inches shorter)." Can't blame a guy for trying! | ||
| Sp2pilot |
[quote=brucelee] So the XB should weight 315 lbs dry? Hmmm, what reality are you living in? BTW-I don't find that my XB9 shakes all that much at idle. It is very smooth at 2K and up also. Perhaps YOU are the one shaking? I agree with you that the motor could use 30HP and I expect that is in the future for us as a result of the RR engine development. Should be a easy layup based on what the race motor is developing. I would also agree with others here that your main purpose is to provoke, which you do rather well. Having said that, I (hopefully we) will write you off as the TROLL that you are. Good bye![/quote] The Published Dry weight of the XB is 395 pounds. The wet weight of Kims XB 12 on my scales in my shop with 3 gallons of gas in it was 430 pounds. That is really not that heavy in fact it is lighter then a stock RC 51 by almost 35 pounds however it is still quite heavy compared to say a 2006 GSXR 750 that scales at 382 pounds full of fuel on the same set of scales and that was a street bike, a stock street bike. So yea the XB needs to be about 75 pounds lighter then it would REALLY flick and the power deficit would not be much of an issue. How is that, you provoked yet? | ||
| M1combat |
That's interesting... I was under the impression that the GSXR750K6 weighed in at 163.0 kg (359.4 pounds) dry... Let's just add four gallons of fuel to that (It'll take about 4.5)... Gasoline weighs 5.8-6.4 lbs... We'll use 6lbs/gallon... That's 383.4lbs... We still need oil, coolant and a battery . Good luck finding oil, coolant and a battery that will remove 3.4lbs... I think your scales might be off or your tank was empty? Maybe you just didn't know... Just so you know... I "think" the published dry weight of the XB includes a battery. I could be wrong so please don't quote me. I'm thinking I've seen the number 373 before in reference to a "dry" XB12R. Just so yo know though... I think the numbers I've seen for the XB12R when wet were somewhere in the mid/upper 440's. I think your scale is off... Maybe, maybe not. Oh BTW... I use two fingers on the clutch . | ||
| S2pengy |
OK who is Eric?????? Get it right ERIK | ||
| Brucelee |
"OK who is Eric?????? Get it right ERIK" What a TWERP! | ||
| Spatten1 |
M1- Just look at the actual wet weights in the back of the magazines. Unfortunately, the multicylinder liquid cooled bikes are much lighter than the Buells. I don't remember the actual numbers, but I know the XBs are heavier than the literbikes. Another reason for a new engine. | ||
| Spike |
Wet weights from sportrider.com: '03 XB9R 454lbs '04 XB12R 460lbs I4s: '05 GSX-R600 429lbs '04 GSX-R750 434lbs '06 GSX-R1000 444lbs '06 CBR1000RR 451lbs '06 ZX-10R 451lbs '06 YZF-R1 451lbs V-twins: '05 999 478lbs '04 RSV-R Factory 465lbs '05 RSV-R 474lbs '05 RC51 483lbs '03 SV1000S 485lbs For perspective, the XB12 is within 16lbs of the lightest listed I4 literbike for '06. It's 5lbs lighter than the lightest listed v-twin. If the XB12 lost 75lbs, it would be lighter than the lightest sportbike listed on sportrider.com by nearly 30lbs. | ||
| Brucelee |
Thanks for the facts of the matter Spike! | ||
| Spatten1 |
I'm not bragging to anyone that there are bikes with TWICE the hp of my bike that weigh even 1 lb less. The GSXR 750 puts out 50 more horses than my XB and weighs 20 lbs less. All I'm saying is that comparing XBs to pure sportbikes for pure performance doesn't work. Quantitavely XBs are way behind the curve. However, they are great street bikes and the chassis is awesome. We have a brilliant clean sheet chassis with an engine that has been "evolved" from a friggin Sportster. I just don't think the engine is in the same class as the rest of the bike, in terms of performance. Also, it is not Buell's fault that H-D doesn't believe in engineering a performance engine. BTW, before you get fired up, I don't believe "evolving" any engine counts as a 100% effort. Look at the Japanese, they re-tool the entire engine platform every three years and get another 5 hp and the bike loses 5 lbs. The XBs are putting down about the same power as my old X1 (but they do leak less and have about a million improvements). I'd love to see an American company engineer engines like the Euros and Japanese. Remember, Erik Buell did not start with Harley engines in his bike, he started with performance engines. He has to make certain practical compromises for the support he gets. I'm not saying the Sporty engine isn't a really fun street platform, but it is certainly limiting and is not getting any lighter. | ||
| Spike |
This is mildly amusing. We start with the engineer being incompetent and putting riders on their heads, then we moved to the racing development being a complete farce, then we move to the street bikes being ok, just way too heavy, then we move on to the weight being acceptable, the bike is fun, but the motor is too old. What's next? | ||
| Brucelee |
I can't imagine that anyone who buys a Buell is thinking it should be competitive in a race with an R1 for example. These bikes are so different as to be laughable. Even when I ask for another 30 HP, it is simply to have a bit more punch on the street. I am NOT thinking I will go R1 hunting. If I was thinking that, I would be on another bike and another forum. |
