| Author | Message | ||
     Jimidan |
I have been on a Ducati forum and was told the following: "For the record our fine friends at Buell DID handle the chassis end of the VR with a VERY talented H-D engineer from York having to manage the chassis guys. Unfortunately he had to go along with their concepts on what was 'good' against his judgement." Is that a correct statement? I have never heard that Buell had any involvement with the VR1000 program. Anybody know the real facts? Also, what was Erik's involvement with the project? Thanks. Jimidan | ||
| Anonymous |
The full story can't be told, but all of Erik's chassis ideas for the VR were rejected without testing them, even though a full Buell VR prototype chassis was built before the first VR engine was finished. Anyone who has seen it knows how far ahead of the curve it was. | ||
| Davegess |
far ahead Blew the curve up would be a more accurate statement. | ||
| Whodom |
Wow, this is pretty cool. | ||
| Anonymous |
Jimidan, Nothing could be further from the truth than what was posted on the Ducati chat page. The prior anonymous post is correct. The Ducati site does have one part right. The actual production VR chassis design team was indeed led by an engineer from H-D, but with no input or help from Buell. H-D was originally going to build a bike using an XR-750 chassis, but Erik convinced them it should be a beam type aluminum frame (remember, this is 1987). Buell did the first VR chassis, which was so radical it terrified H-D, who never even ran it (mostly because the engines wouldn't run and conveniently Buell was used as the scapegoat for being late). H-D then went to Harris in England for a frame which the H-D racing head wanted to be a copy of the old square tube GSXR frame. The Harris frame wasn't that, but it worked very poorly anyhow. The third frame was then designed by the H-D engineer. It was a beam frame as Erik had proposed, but that's where the resemblance ended. BTW, the original VR frame became the XB, and it was built in 1988. Of course it had all the things that wouldn't work: fuel-in-frame, underslung muffler, huge airbox in place of the fuel tank with ram-air, bodywork like an XBRR, and other things that haven't been seen yet. And then there's the powertrain involvement, etc. Oh the true VR story is amazing if only Erik would tell it! | ||
| Blake |
Nothing hurts a bright and enthusiastic engineer than having his revolutionary out-of-the-box innovation tossed aside by no-nothing management/executive jackasses. Uh, did I sound a little bitter. Didn't mean too. You do know the best revenge, right? Become one of those management/executive jackasses.  Worked for me!  | ||
| Steveshakeshaft |
Unfortunately (for us), some of us are too busy being Engineers to be bothered! | ||
| Benm2 |
Ain't THAT the truth!
Sometimes that's not as rewarding as it would seem... | ||
| Milar |
Great story anon. If Eriks 1988 chassis is still SOTA today, it makes one wonder what he has up his sleeve for future Buells. M | ||
| Davegess |
<who> I believe it may have run once,rumor has it that it left the factory under it's own power but returned on a truck. Not because of any issues with the bike, just a little problem with a State Trooper. Good thing he didn't look real close at the painted on headlights and a few other details, he may have confiscated the thing! | ||
| Jimidan |
Thanks Anony, I will post a link to this site on the Speedzilla Ducati site. It sounds a little like Desmo11 knows you...does he? I am over there trying to defend Buell's honor! Sometimes it ain't easy...  Jimidan | ||
| Anonymous |
No idea who Desmo11 is and never been to a Ducati web site. And there are many anony's, the two posts above are from different ones, for example. | ||
| Anonymous |
OK, Jimida, I went there, and Desmo11 is a lying sack of sh**. What a bunch of utter lies about Buell. Saying Pascal and someone else were put on their heads at Mid Ohio by a Buell design? That is an absolutely fabricated lie to make Buell look bad, and not one word is true. There are a handful of us at Buell who have been there the whole time, and we'd be glad to meet with this lying bast***. Patently trying to destroy Buell's reputation with total lies about what we did, and that this guy knows Erik personally? What a POS. | ||
| M1combat |
I would normally register at the offending sight so as to lay some internet smackdown on some very under-informed motorcycle riders but sadly I just don't have the time today... One of them mentioned something about a 1200cc pushrod V-Twin being "foisted upon the series" as a "cheat" for Buell allowed by the AMA... PLEASE remind the punk that it's ~1350cc and that the swept volume is roughly equivalent... If he doesn't understand what swept volume is just tell him to get a clue before he starts spouting internet BS, showing his ass and sounding stupid to people who DO understand. If he still doesn't get it, lemme know  . | ||
| Spatten1 |
"H-D was originally going to build a bike using an XR-750 chassis" Sad state of affairs. What kind of engineering effort is that? At least Buell gets to design the chassis from scratch. An engine sure would be nice too. | ||
| Sp2pilot |
Well I did register here to let you set me straight.. time to show off some of that smack down I would like to discuss this point if you can be a grown up. Or be juvenile and threaten to "set me straight" | ||
| Anonymous |
So are you Desmo11 who is laying out all the lies on the Ducati site? | ||
| Sp2pilot |
No I guess you can read but My Handle is not Desmo11. Well if you could read You probably would not be a Buell owner...HE he he. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/board-image-lister.cgi?popup=1# http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/board-image-lister.cgi?popup=1# Just yankin your chain | ||
| Anonymous |
Yeah, right. I see you are being quite grown up. "I guess you can read" is supposed to mean what? Since this topic started with a discussion of coments on a Ducati site by Desmo 11, and all of a sudden you show up, why would I not ask the question? | ||
| Mikej |
Chips on shoulders make for fine fire starters, so why don't we all start a camp fire, can the flamebait, and get down to a civil discussion, eh? Thanks. 
| ||
| Anonymous |
Note if you want to see what sp2pilot considers a grown up conversation, read the following. The first part of the posting following the word :"Quote" is from jimidan (jimidee). Right after his signature you will read sp2pilot's post. I particularly appreciate the sweathog comment. When I raced Ducatis there were cool guys involved with the brand. Now it appears to be greatly infiltrated by rude jerks and liers. Quote: Originally Posted by JimiDee It is the "AMERICAN" Motorcycle Association... Whether it is a sad series is open to debate. I have already stated that as long as you have full-on factory teams cherry picking for National championships in it that it will never reach its potiential. That is why there are few Ducatis, and no Triumphs and BMWs in it. Explain why you consider it a cheat to allow the Buell entry to FX? I don't think that is a valid complaint. Chuck Graves doesn't either, for the record. Jimidee As your buddies over on the Buell boards pointed out it is actually a 1300+ design that the AMA wrote into the class to bring HD back into a Pro Racing series with the loss of the thunder series and the 883 series before that. The AMA has a long history of writing rules to placate the HD brand and give them a slot regardless of thier lack of competitive hardware. The VR was homogolated without ever selling a single street legal version of the bike to a paying non HD employee. Let alone the 50 required. In fact the VR was never street legal in any state in the USA. The Thunder series bent over backwards to keep the Sportser powered bikes competitive before ceaseing to continue the series. The FX debacle where it is supposed to be a street legal bike modified for race use, care to show me a street legal xbrr that has anything resembling the race bike rolling around on the street?????? It is a moot point as the XBRR will linger for a season or so before the "Factory" decides it is just too dam embarrasing getting spanked by home built club racers on 2 year old 600's handing them their ass. You should mention to the rest of the neanderthals over on the Buell boards that they should not be so bitter, they bought the things. It ain't my fault. Poor judgment is usually correctable So come kick my ass big boys, or better yet send your girlfriends I will gladly take a beating from one of those HD sweathogs Sp2pilot | ||
| Mikej |
Seems simple enough, save his post for a season or two, then repost it to see if his view was valid or not.
| ||
| M1combat |
Yeah well... names get called... Whatever... Anyway... It's 1350cc. Multiply the displacement with the RPM capability and you'll find the swept volume. The swept volume is the maximum capability for the engine to pump air. They happen to pump air and fuel and turn it into mechanical energy. If the swept volume of the engine is comparable, then the engines should be roughly equivalent in performance. Obviously this will not take into effect the mass of the engine itself along with some other factors. There are a lot of other factors. Cost, reliability, simplicity, size, aerodynamics, complexity added by required support systems etc... The swept volume between an RR engine and an FX 600 are very close. The 600 weighs less as I recall (with it's cooling system I think), but it's not anywhere near as aerodynamic. It can be cooled a little more "pointedly" but that's a tradeoff for the complexity. The cost is much greater with the 600. Those are just a few points, if you'd like me to explain any of the others just ask. Engine displacement does not define and engine... It's only a characterisitc like how it's cooled, it's rev limit, it's valve trane type, it's cyl configuration etc... Look at the FIA GT series... VERY good, competitive racing with everything from Jaguar/Ford V12s to Dodge/Chrysler V10s to Ferrari V12s to Lambo V10s to Chevy V8s and Porsche Boxer fours. EXCELLENT racing too. Diaplacement vs. power is not the correct way to evaluate an engine. That said... Why are we even evaluating the engine? Why not look at the whole package and see what it will do? Look at lap times and that sort of thing. If the AMA was allowing Buell to "cheat" then why isn't Buell dominating the class? Because of that little thing called swept volume  . That's the equalizer... Not displacement. Please open your mind. My bike resembles an RR quite closely. As a matter of fact, if you put the two side by side and took off the bodywork the average joe would say their the same bike, one having some cooler looking parts on it. Of course, you and I both realize that this isn't what matters. What matters is that the RR is an '07 model bike . What also matters is that the chassis is "pretty much the same". The frame on the RR is an R frame. So is the swingarm as I recall. Of course there are a host of go fast parts everywhere else... Duh... It's an effing FX bike. Think of it this way... The AMA allowed "unlimited" modifications. Why didn't Buell modify it in an "unlimited" fashion then? They didn't need to. They could have used more displacement, they could have gone to a desmo type valve trane setup, they could have done any number of things. They chose not to and for very good reason. I'll let you figure out the reasons. SO... Which bike was ahead in the 200 before the Buells dropped out (in their first race mind you)? The XBRR or the duck? Which one qualified faster? Which one had a higher top speed? Oh, yeah... blame it all on the displacement... Conveniently forget about your new fangled "water cooling" and your ultra technological "desmo valve setup" and your "dual brakes" and your high revving engine... Whatever... The thing to remember is that there are more than two ways to skin a cat. The cat still gets skinned. Why do you people have to look at the number 1349 and say "WAHHHH!"? Put some pushrods on your duck and see how well it works... It'll be more reliable and easier/less costly to maintain. Put some stroke in it and you'll have more torque. Use two valves instead of four and you'll have a more broad power curve. Get rid of all those extra parts that just add weight like your fuel tank and your oil tank. Oh wait... Then you'd have a Buell... You weren't looking for that "proper" stuff when you bought where you? You were just looking for a bike that everyone else could recognize as being sold with a high price tag... Yeah... That's definately better... Good luck in the canyons with it . I understand that YOU ride an SP2... Yeah... Even more luck to you . You can't even pick up chicks with it . (Message edited by M1Combat on May 25, 2006) | ||
| Blake |
Ignore the troll. "Sometimes that's not as rewarding as it would seem..." I can vigorously confirm that. | ||
| M1combat |
"The AMA has a long history of writing rules to placate the HD brand and give them a slot regardless of thier lack of competitive hardware. " The AMA has a long history of writing rules to include the HD brand and give them a slot regardless of their lack of the same hardware. There... Fixed that for you. You're welcome . | ||
| Sp2pilot |
for the record: I was called; "punk" Before I ever posted anything over here so lets not pretend I came in calling names. OK lets discuss this \\ you mentioned swept area as a benchmark, OK lets use your theory as it is what swayed the AMA to adopt this Formula. In your explanation I am to use a theoretical rev ceiling. However both Buell and the AMA have not instituted a physical limit to how high you can Rev the Buell. As far as being an air cooled push rod 2 valve motor, well it ain't exactly air cooled now is it? If so I suggest we try removing those oil coolers. You suggest it might be ok to install Desmo Valve train however the AMA allready limits Desmo design valve gear to the 750cc limit in this class. The construction of the race bike is not at issue. The use of a fuel tank or its location is moot as there is no weight savings to speak of if you ever picked up a carbon fibre fuel tank you would understand this. Only Harley engines use an oil tank so..... Brake technology has never recognized the rim brake used on the XBRR as a viable design, (It is legal in MotoGP, don't see any one using it there so I would say that pretty much invalidates its use. (Please spare me with any "they ain't brave enough to try new things" reply as it is laughable) As it stands right now no-one is making much of an issue about the Buell as it is no threat to the existing peer groups, however if it does get it's feet under it and performs to the level is should as in capable of generating the estimated 165HP that translates to nearly 155hp at the rear wheel, well I assume the Japanese teams will make a big stink. By the way for your information the Buell motor can rev well beyond the AMA published estimates. They know it and they won't say a damn thing about it. | ||
| Bikertrash05 |
So, Erik made a prototype chassis for basically the VRSC engine? Buell VR. I like the sound of that. | ||
| Anonymous |
Sp2, You are rude and now I see you ara a liar as well. Go back to the troll site from whence you came. For any real person reading this who might be being baffled by the bullshit, here are the real facts: Any truly qualified engineer knows the facts of what makes power and what doesn't, and the rules were written to get even competition for different types of engines. Let's see: a water cooled DOHC 4 valve 600, with all the BMEP advantages they have at peak power, revving to near 18,000 rpm, versus an air-cooled 1350 two valve at 8,300 rpm (real RPM limit for durability). The XBRR isn't built anywhere near to the limit of the AMA rules, which actually were written too broadly. So there is no "cheating" involved. The AMA Tech rep who came to Buell to inspect the motorcycles commended us for building to the spirit of, not just the letter of the rules. In short he knows the rules would have let us do more, and ewe didn't. The goal was to build a bike that would be fairly competitive. No it's not fully developed yet, but it will get there, and will win many races. And, Bikertrash, Erik made a prototype chassis for the VR 1n 1988. That motor and the VRSC have nothing in common. | ||
| M1combat |
"The use of a fuel tank or its location is moot" Ummm... I suppose I would do well to remind you that it happens to be full of fuel. The location is exceedingly critical. That and a frame with a fuel tank is heavier than one without I promise. A frame that IS a fuel tank... I've got pics of someone holding the Buell frame/tank with one finger. They didn't look too strained to do it either. Is a CF fuel tank legal in FX? If so, I'm lobbying for a CF frame for the Buell (actually I have been for a while). At least the sides... Something that can be welded in by Hals or something... "It is legal in MotoGP, don't see any one using it there so I would say that pretty much invalidates its use. (Please spare me with any "they ain't brave enough to try new things" reply as it is laughable) " Quite the opposite... They're kicking themselves for not being smart enough to figure out the right way to mount it so that it DOES work . Don't shoot the messenger, but there are smarter folks than just the ones in Moto-GP. For one, they never mounted the rotor the way Buell has, AND, no one ever actually realized the TRUE benefit of the design. That being the reduction of un-sprung mass associated with the removal of material from the spokes. Other companies have indeed made wheel/rotor/caliper setups that are CLOSE to the same weight as the ZTL setup, but as far as I know, they haven't matched it yet and I think that Buell probably has another trick up their sleeve with that too... For the record... I didn't intend to call "you" a punk as such... just ANYBODY that decides it's in their best interest to spread dis-information. I just prefer that people inform themselves before they open their mouths. Don't get me wrong though... I'm perfectly capable of the same . Oh and... remove your oil cooler too For the record, I have never picked up a CF fuel tank. I have picked up the entire engine cover off of an F-2002 though... The steering wheel too... | ||
| Jimidan |
M1combat sez: "Anyway... It's 1350cc. Multiply the displacement with the RPM capability and you'll find the swept volume. The swept volume is the maximum capability for the engine to pump air. They happen to pump air and fuel and turn it into mechanical energy. If the swept volume of the engine is comparable, then the engines should be roughly equivalent in performance. Obviously this will not take into effect the mass of the engine itself along with some other factors." Just because the swept volume is the same doesn't mean that the two engines (600 DOHC, 4 valve IL4 vs. v-twin 1350 push rod OHV two valve) will have roughly the equivalent performance. Some of the other factors you were talking about that would prevent true parity were the increased breathing efficiency of 4 valves over two (regardless of the size); the friction advantage of IL4 over v-twin; the advantage of the straight shot charge of the IL4 fuel injection over the 45 degree v-twin confined configuration; the efficiency and rev advantage that DOHC have over pushrod configurations. Given these factors, it would appear to the casual observer that the Buell really isn't given ENOUGH of a handicap in the AMA rules. But a little learning is a dangerous thing, and with innovative designs, it has made up for these factors for the most part...the proof is in the puddin. Look at where the Buell has qualified and run and one can see that AMA's formula works. I should be out on the road right now on the S2 heading towards Summit Point, but we have tornado warnings out...so here I am, stirring caca. Besides, there is always tomorrow. Jimidan |
