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Buell Forum » Big, Bad & Dirty (Buell XB12X Ulysses Adventure Board) » Oil leak, starter vicinity « Previous Next »

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Evilphoton
Posted on Thursday, April 09, 2020 - 12:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

after the first few rides, there was oil dripping off the bottom of the engine. with some snooping, i found a pond of oil under the starter on top of the trans. this is the highest point of leaking oil. pulled primary cover, took out starter.
has anyone seen a starter gasket come out like this?
this engine has about 10k on it so i was pretty surprised by the looks of the gasket. the starter bolts were torqued (probably from the factory), so it hasnít been loose. looks like the rubber in the gasket was susceptible to oil. itís the harley gasket, the name and part number are still visible.
there is also oil weeping at the cover end of the solenoid so iíll take the cover off and see it the starter is leaking internally (also). if it looks ok, iíll put the starter back in with a new gasket and try it.
just wanted to share the weirdness, thanks for any input!



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Shoggin
Posted on Thursday, April 09, 2020 - 01:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Did you just get this bike?
Make sure it's the right starter. If it has been replaced, theres a version that fits perfectly but does not have the correct sealed bearing in the nosecone. When it gets ridden the primary oil drains past the bearing through the starter and out the weep hole in the bottom of the starter case, making a mess exactly where you have a mess, bypassing the gasket.

You can check it by removing the nose cone of the starter and seeing if oil will pass through the bearing. It's better than re-installing with a new gasket and having to do it all again.

Good luck.
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Evilphoton
Posted on Thursday, April 09, 2020 - 03:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

yes, both bike and engine are new to me. engine is a take-out from another bike.

i will take the nose cone off and see what it looks like. i also looked at a few starter dissections and see what you're referring to. thanks!

(Message edited by evilphoton on April 09, 2020)
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Shoggin
Posted on Thursday, April 09, 2020 - 09:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The bearing in the nose cone will look the same. See if it holds oil. It will leak obviously and profusely if it's the wrong one...
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Odd
Posted on Friday, April 10, 2020 - 01:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

what is the red stuff around the bolt holes? Thats not from the factory.
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Tpehak
Posted on Friday, April 10, 2020 - 01:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Looks like blood.

Since you are there I would pop the stator grommet out, cleaned the grommet and the hole with degreaser, applied black RTV silicone on it and put it back.

(Message edited by TPEHAK on April 10, 2020)
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Evilphoton
Posted on Friday, April 10, 2020 - 02:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

itís all over the bolts, i think red loctite.

full of oil (primary/trans, not grease). the bearing is rough, has rust in it and the seal is shot. pretty likely cause.

getting replacement assembly. itís 31556-91B; which has been replaced with -91D...i hope they arenít too different. the B definitely has a full rubber seal. also half the price.



(Message edited by evilphoton on April 10, 2020)
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Evilphoton
Posted on Friday, April 10, 2020 - 02:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)







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Tpehak
Posted on Friday, April 10, 2020 - 02:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

OK, I see the problem, it looks like you got not original starter. See that rough casting mating surfaces, the black seal bearing on overrunning clutch, probably no seal between the bearing and casing and between the bearing and the shaft.

You can throw this starter in the garbage, it will leak no matter what. Read this thread carefully https://www.buellxb.com/forum/showthread.php?51401 -Buell-XB-starter-problems

You have to buy original Buell XB starter, it has proper sealing.

The original Buell XB starter (at least on 2009 model) has smooth machined mating surfaces, has seal on the output shaft, has green seal bearing.

The only issue with original Buell XB starter it has weak overrunning clutch. When mine got bad I replaced the overrunning clutch with All Balls overriding clutch and had no issues since then.

(Message edited by TPEHAK on April 10, 2020)
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Shoggin
Posted on Friday, April 10, 2020 - 03:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

OP, you can buy just the proper nosecone from HD and use the rest of the starter you have, if you want to save a little $$.

Or kmbuell has on for sale right now $75
:http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/21/867835.html?1586530513

Black RTV the gasket, and Red (271) Loctite the mounting bolts.

(Message edited by shoggin on April 10, 2020)
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Tpehak
Posted on Friday, April 10, 2020 - 06:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

When you will install everything back use fresh gasket and follow service manual. There should not be any Loctite on those bolts.
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Shoggin
Posted on Friday, April 10, 2020 - 09:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Buell repair = Loctite, red, always.

Engineer vs Reality. Again.
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Tpehak
Posted on Friday, April 10, 2020 - 10:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The only thing you must differ from service manual when you will assemble it back is do not tighten the primary oil drain plug to specification from service manual or you will strip the threads on the drain hole, the oil plugs torque in service manual is wrong. Just clean the threads of the plug and the hole with degreaser, attach o-ring seal, apply thread sealant and tighten it by bare hand as hard and you can and that's it. You actually might damage the o-ring just bare hand tightening the plug, so probably do not tighten it too hard.


(Message edited by TPEHAK on April 10, 2020)
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Smorris
Posted on Saturday, April 11, 2020 - 09:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Reality....the "Engineer" has been banned from the other Buell forum
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_buelligan_
Posted on Saturday, April 11, 2020 - 10:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The newest edition of that starter is an F now, don't get upset if you see a price difference between the old designations and the newest. The older models always get price cut from their original price to quickly move old obsolete inventory to stock the newest updated version. Typically you would want the newest variation as changes are usually made to address bad/poor manufacturing/design flaws. That B designation hasn't been made since 2003 and the D version since 2004 so if anyone still has them, obviously they would want to sell those versions for pennys on the dollar. Seems they had a bad few years in there where they changed the design multiple times. The starter now is only sold as a complete unit, the whole clutch assembly or a solenoid rebuild kit. I believe there was a discussion on this forum about someone trying to cobble together a starter from different versions to save money and none of the innards would mesh together or fit in his housing, I can't remember exactly what it was but would explain why you can not buy different parts of the clutch assembly and starter body separately anymore since 2010. Too many variations and fitment issues to guarantee a successful match up. If you find any of the remaining inventory of individual starter pieces at misc. dealers, there's no telling how well those pieces will fit yours. Best to just buy a complete working used assembly for cheap or bite the bullet and buy the newest version which of course the sportster still uses.
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Tootal
Posted on Saturday, April 11, 2020 - 11:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I've tried a couple of different starters on my Big Twin Harley. I found the Compu-fire's are junk and expensive!! That company has really gone down hill since they were bought out. I replaced them with an All Balls starter. That one is sweet! Spins a high compression engine like it was stock. For the Buell/Sportster it's model number 80-1009. Their website says $371.35. You might get it cheaper with a little research.
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Biffdotorg
Posted on Monday, April 13, 2020 - 01:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Same story here, and part of the linked thread above.

Put in the cheap Chinese starter as the HD starter was so expensive. And the chinese starter was stronger. It spun well, but leaked over time.

I replaced with the all balls starter for a price halfway in between and got rid of the leak. As others have said, replace the clutch component if you are comfortable ripping it apart. It looks like you are there already.

Good luck
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Evilphoton
Posted on Saturday, May 02, 2020 - 07:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

thank you!

iíve been down for a while with COVID-19 so kind of getting back to it. I didnít put the plug back as tight as the manual states. I saw that the drain plug for my VFR is about half the torque and it uses an aluminum washer and it never leaks. these with orings should be good.
I definitely prioritized riding over research in this case...but it was SO nice out. I ended up swapping the starter from my spare engine to get going. I ordered the o rings. i think iím going to re-sell or ask to return the drive i got and get the correct current one.
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Evilphoton
Posted on Saturday, May 02, 2020 - 07:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I thought I would see Harley Davidson part number or something stamped in the starter but I didnít see anything anywhere. itís fairly low mileage so it should be the oem starter. this bike sat for about 6 years though and stuff eventually does dry out.
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Griffmeister
Posted on Sunday, May 03, 2020 - 08:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

If you do get a new drive clutch could you say what brand and part number you found? I replaced mine with a Drag Specialties drive clutch and have been chasing down the same kind of leak since. One thing that I was going to try just to be sure was clean everything up and put some dye in the primary. This should confirm the source if I check it soon enough.
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Evilphoton
Posted on Friday, May 08, 2020 - 12:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Griffmeister - the one I got was HD brand 3155691B, but don't get that one, get the current 3155691D. the D (current) has a green seal. in the pictures on ebay, you can see it if the camera angle is right.
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Griffmeister
Posted on Friday, May 08, 2020 - 07:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks, thatís a big help. eBay seems to be sold out of anything but the A version. The new number is good to know because it seems like every dealer site with online parts will only show an older version as unavailable without giving an update.
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