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Archive through March 04, 2020Mark_weiss30 03-04-20  09:50 am
         

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Steveford
Posted on Wednesday, March 04, 2020 - 08:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

It worked fine for about a month and then the CEL would come on as the thing would stop working for a bit, the light would go off, light would come back on a day later, etc.
Really disappointing as you think Bosch is a quality part but not in this case.
I went with an NTK 21002 picked up at the local AutoZone.
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Tpehak
Posted on Wednesday, March 04, 2020 - 10:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Looking at a ride log the sensor voltage does vary as expected, swinging regularly between about .2 and .8 volts. The track is not a nice regular sine wave, but more of a somewhat somewhat ragged saw tooth pattern.

That's how raw signal from O2 sensor should look like. ECM approximates that saw tooth and calculate average, but the ECMDroid shows raw signal from O2 sensor. If your sensor voltage would not jump like that it would be bad sensor, bad wiring or bad ECM.

Ideally you have to catch the log when that power cut happens, if it did not happen it is not useful data.

If you can also log throttle position sensor angle that might be helpful. If the TPS is bad it might show wrong angle and ECM might put wrong amount of fuel. Let's say you open your throttle pretty wide but bad TPS shows low angle for a second so ECM triggers the injectors for too small amount of time accordingly and as result the engine grabs a lot of air and very small amount of fuel mist, as result preignition happens, that small amount of fuel explodes before the piston passed the top position and it works like brake, plus there is no fuel anymore to push the cylinder down after it passed the top dead center. And this might be the power cut you feel.

The TPS might have only small portion where the resistive elements rubbed off or damaged so that's why it happens pretty rare.

Damaged TPS wires, or internal damage of ESM might cause wrong TPS reading too. But you should be able to see it on the log, just remember how wide you opened the throttle when power cut happened and then check this area on the log.

Also warm up your motorcycle and perform throttle body leakage test. If it leaks you must to fix it first before you will do any other tests and logs otherwise all the logs are useless. If it leaks you are likely 90% found the issue.



(Message edited by TPEHAK on March 04, 2020)
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Mark_weiss
Posted on Thursday, March 05, 2020 - 01:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yes, the regular signal from the O2 sensor seems to indicate that it is working, but when it is out of the circuit the bike runs fine. (I've not yet tried just unplugging the sensor and leaving Closed Loop enabled)

The TPS seems OK. Readings are good, log recordings show no unusual changes, and the problem occurs only at steady throttle. If the bike is hiccupping and I roll on, the problem clears. For a while. Also, a TPS problem would be there in Open Loop as well as Closed.

If I had an intake leak wouldn't AFV be corrected up? The issue would also be present when I'm in Open Loop too and it's not. AFV is currently set at 93.

I have had the problem occur while logging data. I've not been able to find anything to clue me in but it is possible that I am not looking at the correct data stream to see the fault. I have MegaLog Viewer set to display TPS, RPM, O2, AFV, Spark, and Speed. Speed is just there to help me to figure out where I was at that point in the file.
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Tpehak
Posted on Thursday, March 05, 2020 - 03:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Intake leaks can be inconsistent. The rubber seals flex, the oil contamination in the intake may fill the gaps and next moment sucked out of the gap.
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Ourdee
Posted on Thursday, March 05, 2020 - 04:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Does it happen at 50 in 5th?
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Mark_weiss
Posted on Thursday, March 05, 2020 - 05:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The worst condition will be at steady speed for several minutes, near 3k rpm, at least 45 mph. Definitely in 5th, but possibly in 4th too. ONLY when running in Closed Loop. Take the O2 sensor, and whatever else changes from Open to Closed, away and the bike runs fine.a
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Mark_weiss
Posted on Thursday, March 05, 2020 - 05:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I am going to try setting the minimum AFV at 95 and enabling Closed Loop. It would seem to me that if I don't allow the AFV to drop and the problem stays away, then the issue is the AFV being pushed too low.
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Mark_weiss
Posted on Thursday, March 05, 2020 - 05:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

If the intake seals leak intermittently wouldn't AFV climb as a result? AFV never bumps up and the O2 trace never shows a lean period. Also, leaky seals would not only leak under Closed Loop running, would they? Or would leaks cause more problems under that condition which is currently covered up by running Open Loop?

I do still plan to leak test.
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Sagehawk
Posted on Thursday, March 05, 2020 - 10:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Mark, does the afv change value from time to time? mine seemed to have stuck at the same value a good bit of time back and I sent a logged file to Gunter. He went over it and replied I had a lean spot in a rpm location. he changed some values but with me riding in the same throttle setting areas all the time, he changed the polygon area that the bike would be in closed loop at different rpm, load areas. after that , my afv would subtly change with weather changes. afv at 93 would indicate a lean area of the map. I know when I ride with guys and really run the bike the afv would be slightly different than when I would ride with my wife at slower speeds. the ecm would respond as to how bike was ridden. best wishes on sorting this out.
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Mark_weiss
Posted on Friday, March 06, 2020 - 12:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yes it does change, but not often. In my typical 20 to 30 minute commute, AFV will usually change at least once. Most often, the change occurs about eight or nine minutes into the ride.
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Mark_weiss
Posted on Friday, April 03, 2020 - 03:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

After nearly a full month of riding with the ECU set to stay in open loop no issues have popped up. If there were a component issue such as a problem with the fuel pump, ignition coil, vacuum leak, etc. it would have shown up by now. I've run the same map with two different ECUs and noted no difference. Fuel mileage is down about 5 mpg but the bike is definitely fun to ride.

I am going to re-enable open loop running and find out if the problem comes back. If so, I'll replace the O2 sensor.
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Firemanjim
Posted on Saturday, April 04, 2020 - 01:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Sounds like you have an issue with the map in the Learned Fuel Area when bike is warmed up so no added fuel from temp compensation and CL is on, 4th and 5th gear at that rpm/throttle position. Esp as it is pulling fuel there.
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Mark_weiss
Posted on Sunday, April 05, 2020 - 06:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

So what would be causing this to happen? When I load the map everything is OK for a bit, then as the system adapts performance gradually degrades until I disable closed loop or load the map again. I have tried a few different maps and the same pattern occurs with each.

All that I can think of is the O2 sensor.
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Uly_dude
Posted on Monday, April 06, 2020 - 11:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The whole time I've been following along, I'm guessing O2 sensor also. I'm in the middle of changing my O2 sensor myself due to mysterious surges of power and ubrupt power loss I experienced most of last season. While I'm in there I'm going to put a new fan in also. My Uly has 26K miles on it.
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Ourdee
Posted on Monday, April 06, 2020 - 02:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Unless the fan has been oiled by the engine, I would leave it alone.
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Uly_dude
Posted on Wednesday, April 08, 2020 - 11:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The fan is making odd noises, plus I went and bought a new fan years ago knowing that is would need to be replaced eventually and wanted to have it before you couldn't buy em anymore.
With the old fan out, I can source the same motor, fix it up, and have a good working spare on the shelf still.
As long as I have all this taken apart, I'm going to use this new fan while I can.
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Mark_weiss
Posted on Wednesday, April 08, 2020 - 01:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I had the same idea with my original O2 sensor. There was nothing wrong, but I thought that as long as I had the engine rotated to replace the rocker box gaskets I might as well put in a new sensor...
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Tootal
Posted on Wednesday, April 08, 2020 - 02:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

New parts are not always good parts. I think you're on the right track. Last year I changed my O2 sensor but I was getting a code. I put in a new fan while I was there but I'm at 60,000 miles. The new sensor cured my problem.
The fact the problem started after you changed a known good sensor makes your conclusion quite probable.
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Shoggin
Posted on Wednesday, April 08, 2020 - 03:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Total: "The fact the problem started after you changed a known good sensor makes your conclusion quite probable."

I'm with this guy ^^^

I have experienced a bad O2. Not intermittent, totally inop and it would do as you describe but way worse. I could ride hard, forcing open-loop, but any part-throttle cruise would go to crap immediately when it would change to Closed Loop.

I'm not much for just guessing at problems, but IMO it's worth a new O2 in this case.
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Mark_weiss
Posted on Thursday, April 09, 2020 - 09:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I should be clearer. The current issue did not crop up immediately after changing the OE O2 sensor. I rode with the new sensor for about nine months before I started noticing a problem. Gradually, over another two or three months, the occasional "what just happened?" moments became more frequent. Never any codes though.
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Bobbuell1961
Posted on Thursday, April 09, 2020 - 10:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I know you said you checked the ecm, did you swap out a good known one? I had a similar issue that drove me to swap out many different components, I could not duplicate in a static condition no matter how much I tugged on the harness.
Good luck, losing my mind at the moment.

(Message edited by bobbuell1961 on April 09, 2020)
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Firemanjim
Posted on Thursday, April 09, 2020 - 11:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Sagehawk, an AFV of 93 means the ecu is pulling 7% of fuel because it sees a RICH spot, if it sees a lean spot it adds fuel so AFV will be above 100.
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Mark_weiss
Posted on Thursday, April 09, 2020 - 09:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I'm at 1200' to 1400' above sea level. Normal AFV here should be around 95. When I enable closed loop the AFV will usually drop to around 92. I have observed as low as 89.
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Sagehawk
Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2020 - 10:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Firemanjim , thanks for restating what I had said. I totally said that wrong. Thoughts get jumbled up and I make mistakes. good thing that was just words and not action. my bad!
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Mark_weiss
Posted on Monday, April 20, 2020 - 12:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Fortunately for me, disabling closed loop covers up the problem and the Uly is quite rideable. I have a few other projects to handle, so changing the O2 sensor is back burnered.

I did try another experiment. I loaded a new map, set the AFV to 95, and enabled closed loop operation. Three 11 mile commutes later and the Uly started to periodically run poorly. AFV was down to 90.2. Disabled closed loop and set AFV to 93 and the bike is fine again.

I'm not planning to go into the mountains any time soon, so the Uly is OK as is. I'm thinking about adding a barometric sensor. It will be easier than changing the O2 sensor.
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