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Yan
Posted on Monday, August 19, 2019 - 12:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

2009 XB12XT
push the starter button
hear a click (or rather a fairly loud 'clank'), then a buzzing sound of what probably is the starter motor spinning. It doesn't seem to be engaging with the gears though, and the engine doesn't start.
Will run the 'voltage drop' tests as per Electrical Manual, but I have a feeling that it's a bad solenoid. If that's the case - do I have to replace the whole starter assembly - https://st-paul-harley-davidson-buell.myshopify.co m/collections/electrical-parts/products/31390-91f- genuine-buell-starter-motor-assembly-1995-2010-xb- s1-s2-s3-m2-x1-p3-models?variant=5439052316702

Thank you!
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651lance
Posted on Monday, August 19, 2019 - 07:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

It sounds like the starter solenoid. I found in the pass there is a round brass disc and terminal end get a little burnt and donít work as well. There / was a solenoid rebuild kit available for most of the starters. The starter is basically the same one used in the later 80 to the 2000s. Iíve used the rebuild kit on my old cvcc I had.
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Etennuly
Posted on Monday, August 19, 2019 - 07:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Low battery or loose cables will do that.

Check the easy cheap stuff first.

Should show 12.6V+ on battery before testing. Start load spike will drop it to 9.6 or so.

Battery cables need to be tightened to where you cannot force them to move with the force of your hands.
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Griffmeister
Posted on Monday, August 19, 2019 - 09:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

If the motor is spinning then that would seem to indicate that the solenoid is working. The trick is how to tell if thatís what it is doing. Checking amp draw and voltage will certainly help there. Could be the starter drive clutch, too, though usually that gets a little balky before it actually fails. There is a parts breakdown of the starter motor, actual availability is another matter. If you can narrow it down you may need to check with St Paul to see if the individual parts are still out there.
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Yan
Posted on Monday, August 19, 2019 - 10:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

thank you all!

checked the contacts - all seems good.

the battery is fully charged, plus I have an emergency booster connected to it for extra juice, but with the same results.

pressed the starter button with my hand on the starter. the 'clanking' definitely comes from there (I can feel it), and so is the spinning of the motor (I can feel it too). I kept the button pressed for 10-15 seconds, and I could feel the starter getting warmer, so something in there is getting enough 'juice' to spin (and produce heat).

so what can it be? the solenoid 'clicks' but the gears aren't engaging? And how complicated is the taking the starter out? I'd rather have the bike up and running sooner than later, so I don't mind replacing the whole starter as a unit. I can then have the old one fixed and keep it as a spare for future use (we have two Ulysses in the garage, I am sure we'll need it).

Thank you!
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_buelligan_
Posted on Monday, August 19, 2019 - 04:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The Starter is the same as the sportster from 1991 to current models, if you want to find a cheaper one on fleabay or get a new one at any Harley dealer. The solenoid rebuild kit from Harley is 31603-91 for $61.
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_buelligan_
Posted on Monday, August 19, 2019 - 04:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

But if its clicking and spinning, it may be the final shaft assembly that actually spins the clutch basket is not engaging the armature. The rebuild kit for that is 31556-91D and is $122
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Natexlh1000
Posted on Monday, August 19, 2019 - 05:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

My 2008 starter was always weak and could barely push the engine over. It died in the same basic way you described.

There is a "sprag clutch" in there to let the engine freewheel once it starts up.
Mine stopped catching. I took it all apart and could see no flaws in there at all.

I ended up buying a Chinese knockoff sportster starter from amazon.

It worked but I had to clearance the aluminum end of the thing for rigid oil line going across with a dremel.

I usually buy real parts and avoid China but I was pissed off with the "authentic" Denso starter being crap from day one.
Meanwhile, my X1 cranks over like new with the same type of starter.
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Yan
Posted on Monday, August 19, 2019 - 05:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thank you all!

Natexlh1000 - what mileage did yours die at? Our XB has 40k miles on it. Sounds a bit early for a starter to go, don't you think?
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Natexlh1000
Posted on Monday, August 19, 2019 - 09:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yup. about 40.
Mine always stalled and then just barely made it past the compression stroke.
I always just assumed it was 2008 and different.
I had no idea that all the starters were the same at the time : )

Has I known, I would have made a stink while it was under warranty!
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Griffmeister
Posted on Monday, August 19, 2019 - 10:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

While itís not a big deal to replace most of the guts that are inside the starter, sounds like there could still be some doubt as to what Ďs broken. If you donít pre-order the right part youíll be down until you get the right one in. Looks like some reasonably priced OEM starters on eBay for a quick swap, then you can disassemble the old one and see what it needs for future repair. Donít forget that you will probably need a ball end Allen socket to get one of the starter bolts out.

My drive clutch stopped working at less than 15K, so if you have 40K Iíd say thatís pretty good. I didnít want to wait to order one but a local independent shop had a Drag Specialties clutch for a sportster that fit right in. The OEM part number has ended in a ďBĒ for like forever, now it ends in ďDĒ? Maybe thereís been a problem all along and now they get around to fixing it, or is that just a change in suppliers?
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Ourdee
Posted on Monday, August 19, 2019 - 10:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

All that lovely compression comes at a price. Every time I turn off Lil Red, I shift to 2nd and roll the engine back off the compression. It is just enough for the starter to get the mass moving without stalling out at start up. Probably lengthens the starter life.
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Yan
Posted on Monday, August 19, 2019 - 10:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Here are some videos I found on the internet, not my bike, but the sound is identical

https://youtu.be/fgu6Bao1fQo?t=8

https://youtu.be/1DMsk3CdGTw?t=8

they say it's a 'bendix' - whatever that is, is there a 'repair kit' for it?

Thank you!
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Griffmeister
Posted on Monday, August 19, 2019 - 10:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thatís the starter drive clutch, see buelliganís second post above for part number. Thatís the one I was wondering about the change from B to D in the suffix. The ďkitĒ is basically a complete drive clutch assembly and is supposed to come with a new snap ring no. 31328-91. You will also need the o-ring for the front housing no. 11116.
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Yan
Posted on Monday, August 19, 2019 - 11:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks Griff!
Don't seem to be able to find the 'D' version of that clutch. Only 'B' and 'C' are available. How hard is it to replace this clutch on a starter?

Thank you!
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Griffmeister
Posted on Monday, August 19, 2019 - 11:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Ha, I just watched the videos. The second one is an excellent illustration of a bad drive clutch. Notice how it wonít spin when it engages the ring gear but spins after itís uncoupled. Also note the starter mounting bolt to the right of the drive gear, see how itís kind of behind the ring gear? Thatís the one that can be a little hard to get a regular Allen wrench on.
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Griffmeister
Posted on Monday, August 19, 2019 - 11:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Now that I look at some of the pictures I seem to remember that the Drag Specialties clutch did not come with the pinion gear and I had to swap out my original. The OEM part looks like it comes with the gear which is a lot easier. Itís fairly easy once you have the starter out in front of you. The nose is held on with two screws, work over a tray as there are some loose parts inside. The idler gear uses an open cage roller bearing, be sure the open end faces the solenoid. There is also a return spring and a ball that goes between the solenoid and the drive clutch, donít lose those. Use a new o-ring on the nose and grease the bearing with high temp grease on reassembly. I donít see any torque spec on the screws, just for the complete starter install which is 13-20 lb/ft.
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Yan
Posted on Monday, August 19, 2019 - 11:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks a lot Griffmeister!
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Arry
Posted on Tuesday, August 20, 2019 - 02:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I've never had to mess with the starter. Is the "starter drive clutch" included with a replacement starter?
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Yan
Posted on Tuesday, August 20, 2019 - 09:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

One more question please - does that look like the right starter - https://xpart.ca/new-denso-starter-for-harley-davi dson-xl-sportster-1200c-custom-xl-sportster-1200c- custom-anniv-xl-sportster-1200ca-custom-ltd-a-xl-s portster-1200cb-custom-ltd-b-xl-sportster-1200cp-c ustom-xl-sportster-1200l-low-xl-sportster-1200n-ni ghtster ?

Prices are in Canadian $$$, they want $128 USD for it.

Thank you.
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Griffmeister
Posted on Tuesday, August 20, 2019 - 12:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

That is interesting, how truthful are they with the cross reference part numbers? You can see in their listing the 31390-91F number reference, might help to contact them directly just in case.

Arry, the drive clutch is part of a complete starter, you only have to worry about it if you want to disassemble and repair your own starter. If you try both part numbers on eBay some listings have really good pictures so you can see the clutch assembly by itself and the complete starter. I like pictures.
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Yan
Posted on Tuesday, August 20, 2019 - 12:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Griffmeister - but 31390-91 is the correct part number, so they should all fit, regardless of the trailing letter, or not?

(Message edited by Yan on August 20, 2019)
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Griffmeister
Posted on Tuesday, August 20, 2019 - 09:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I have no problem with the letter at the end, my concern was that their part no. was X26560. The dozen or so numbers given as a cross reference were provided by them, so I would just like to know if they stand by those numbers. I like that itís supposed to be a real Denso part. They seem eager to respond to any questions on their site and have an accommodating return policy, maybe they can confirm the fit.
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Yan
Posted on Tuesday, August 20, 2019 - 10:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Oh, I see what you mean. Does real Denso mean it might not be that bad, despite the low price?
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Yan
Posted on Friday, August 23, 2019 - 03:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Griffmeister, that o-ring for the front housing (11116) is obsolete, at least according to my local H-D dealer. Any chance of reusing the old one?

Thank you!
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Griffmeister
Posted on Friday, August 23, 2019 - 08:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Well, at least that part number is obsolete. Common sense would say that since the starter fits such a broad range of bikes that parts would still be available. Normally you would think that the dealer could cross that to a new number. On the plus side, I did a quick eBay search and there are quite a few listings, some aftermarket and some OEM. Of course it seems that they are for multiple quantities, you could fix your starter four, ten or twenty times. Even though the oring sits in a fixed position with no moving parts I would prefer to install a new one for peace of mind. They will compress and take a ďsetĒ or even deteriorate over time. I guess one rule would be to keep the thought in mind ďhow many times do I want to do this ď?
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Yan
Posted on Friday, August 23, 2019 - 08:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks Griffmeister!
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_buelligan_
Posted on Saturday, August 24, 2019 - 09:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The change of letter at the end of the part number just means they changed something minor on the design, usually fixing a flaw found over time and/or warranty claims. The O-ring is still available through the dealership, they would have to order it from Vintage Parts Inc which has 92 in stock, which is where the motor company sends obsolete liquidated inventory for dealers to still access until its all gone. They would have to order as a 2 pack. They probably told you that they couldn't get it because the shipping wouldn't be worth the part. I doubt its anything really special, probably just a viton oring you could probably find something close at the store or order exactly what you need on amazon or fleabay.
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Ourdee
Posted on Sunday, August 25, 2019 - 12:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Or McMaster-Carr. I like them. They ship what I order then send an invoice.
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