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Archive through September 12, 2019Mark_weiss30 09-12-19  06:47 pm
         

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Ourdee
Posted on Thursday, September 12, 2019 - 07:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

When starting, do you wait for the CEL to go out before pressing the start switch? I just take that for granted. Good question.
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Screamer
Posted on Thursday, September 12, 2019 - 11:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

My Ulysses had the hesitation issue when first turning over (cold). Installing an additional ground cable to the center engine mount resolved the problem.
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1313
Posted on Friday, September 13, 2019 - 12:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

^ Interesting...

Just adding another OE ground cable between the same 2 points, or making a hand fabricated ground cable?

I find this particularly interesting because I witnessed a change in running behavior from improving a component ground during my annual HOMEcoming trip this year. And I think there is more improvement possible...
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Screamer
Posted on Friday, September 13, 2019 - 07:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Brankin,
I ran an additional cable from the battery negative to the center engine mount. I bought a cable at NAPA, which I recorded the length (somewhere). Iíll see if I can find time this weekend to take photos.
R
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Fernus
Posted on Monday, September 16, 2019 - 11:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Mark_weiss -
Does the problem go away after the engine warms up or is always there when the bike idles for a bit?

Always there.

When starting, do you wait for the CEL to go out before pressing the start switch?

Yes.

I'm wondering if this is a cold start problem. Also wondering if it is a startup sequence issue.
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Fernus
Posted on Monday, September 16, 2019 - 11:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Screamer - I installed a ground bypass too. Seemed to help a tiny bit but not much.
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Fernus
Posted on Monday, September 16, 2019 - 11:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I called the dealer on Friday and was told the service manager no longer works there. I should hear from them tomorrow.
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Ourdee
Posted on Monday, September 16, 2019 - 02:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I also have installed a ground from the negative post to the center engine mount. I used the positive wire from an XB wire harness I had laying around.





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Griffmeister
Posted on Monday, September 16, 2019 - 10:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

So now the service manager is under new management, huh? Canít wait to hear how that pans out. I still have my old ECU to try but no time until mid October. If this problem is still kicking around then maybe I can buzz up there with it.
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Shoggin
Posted on Monday, September 16, 2019 - 11:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

If you ever wonder if you need any extra ground wires anywhere, use your DVOM on the amp setting to check between the things you want to add a wire too.

Check while starting/running and it will not only tell you IF you need a wire, but how big a wire to put there.

Easy peasy.

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Mark_weiss
Posted on Tuesday, September 17, 2019 - 12:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Idle speed that fluctuates up and down is very nearly always a TPS issue. It could be the sensor itself or possibly something amiss between the TPS and the ECU. If you have used the built in TPS reset procedure and it did not work there is likely a bad component. One thing to consider, the TPS procedure requires a really solid one-second wait in each position. A quick second won't do the trick.

If that is all done, the least expensive way to check the system is to get a Buelltooth dongle so that you can check the TPS voltage value and can also easily record a data log during a ride. After the ride you can use the free program Mega Log Viewer to look for data that is out of order.

Electrical and electronic problems that won't occur while a technician is looking are terribly frustrating to solve. I've been on both sides.

Erroneous TPS values can cause the Active Exh Valve to move if the ECU is getting a signal that the throttle valve is being suddenly opened.
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Griffmeister
Posted on Tuesday, September 17, 2019 - 10:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Interesting thought, if the ECU thinks the throttle is fully open then is it also over fueling it at the same time?
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Fernus
Posted on Thursday, September 19, 2019 - 01:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Griffmeister - I spoke with the new owner of TSI and he agreed with me and said he is sending me a check for the full refund. Yes lets get together to see if your ECU corrects the issues when you have some time. Do you know what version your ECU is?

Shoggin - Thank you.

Mark_weiss - I'll try to check the TPS info in ECMDroid if its in there. If not I will see if I can get the other ECM SPY to read it.
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Griffmeister
Posted on Thursday, September 19, 2019 - 05:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Glad that the dealer saw the light of day, not good for business to treat customers badly. My ECU has the last available update for 08 before they came out with the 10 version. I donít think there were any changes to fuel maps since the 08 bikes only had one O2 sensor, just new fan logic.
Starting the roof next weekend, Iíll let you know when I finish.
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Mark_weiss
Posted on Thursday, September 19, 2019 - 08:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

ECM Droid will read your TPS setting. I don't have it in front of me, but I think that you may be able to make TPS voltage one of the values that will show on ECM Droid's live data screen. TPS should read about 4 when the throttle is closed (mine reads 4.2) and should not change unless you twist the grip.
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Fernus
Posted on Friday, September 20, 2019 - 10:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Griffmeister - Thank you. I've gotta hire some one to add some metal to my roof too. I look forward to meeting you.

Mark_weiss - I looked at info on ECM Droid yesterday and it shows the TPS value in percent. I'll mess with it this weekend if I get a moment. Thank you.

On the bright side I saw a youtube vid of a guy blipping his throttle on a Buell and it didn't hiccup cough or fart so there is hope that mine will stop trying to embarrass me. lol.
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Tootal
Posted on Friday, September 20, 2019 - 11:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

One thing you can use is the tps setting. If memory serves they tell you to set it at 5. Once you get it hot you can set your idle. If your idle is high and you have to adjust it down and you end up with, say a tps of 3 you might have an intake leak. I'm talking 06 and 07 only.
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Mark_weiss
Posted on Friday, September 20, 2019 - 12:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Fernus' bike is an '08. No idle speed screw or cable, no manual TPS setting or adjustment.

Idle speed is set by an ECU controlled throttle butterfly air bypass valve. TPS position is read electronically at zero and wide open when the TPS reset procedure is used.

If the TPS value and the actual throttle position disagree, the Idle Air Control will cyclically open and close as the ECU tries to figure out what to do.
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Tootal
Posted on Friday, September 20, 2019 - 01:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I understood that, I just wanted to point that out for those following this that have an 06 or 07. Definitely a ton of changes on an 08.
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Fernus
Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2020 - 12:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

It was nearly 70 degrees here in CT on Sunday so I pushed her out the door and noticed all the relays are the same part number. I rotated/shuffled all 4 relays. Pressed start and it started right up. No binding and having to release the start button and try again. Of course I had to take it for a ride. When I returned I tested it about 10 times. It bound a little once and there was a grinding starter clutch noise once but for the most part it is much better. I think I will take the $350 I was going to spend on the starter and put it towards a tire or a muffler. Thank you everyone that commented.
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Ourdee
Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2020 - 12:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I put mine in second after turning it off and roll it backwards off the compression. It saves a lot of wear on the starter to allow it to spin into the compression. ie. get a running start at it. I always carry a couple of extra relays and fuses under the seat.
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Shoggin
Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2020 - 12:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I find it's easier to do the patented "Buell Bump" tm.

Tap the starter to let the engine bounce off compression, then immediately press and hold it again.

Works like a charm; )
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Tootal
Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2020 - 01:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I was having some starting issues and found the relay was weak. Since they are all the same part and same age I just changed them all with good quality replacements. No problems since and I did save the good used ones for a backup.
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Etennuly
Posted on Saturday, January 18, 2020 - 01:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Two things. I read all of this looking specifically for a simple thing that will mess up TPS settings I don't care who you are. Making it easy on the 08 up bikes I think was a mistake.

TPS setting is simple set it and go. But what makes it change? How does it get out of whack?

I believe the order of reasons for failed TPS settings and changes are misdiagnosed. Then resetting without fixing for initial issue causes makes confused diagnoses, and Ill running engines, that no longer fit questions and answers in the diagnosis charts.

Number one reason tips setting changes is carbon build up on the edges of the plate. Carbon does a lot of bad things a very little at a time. It then gets overlooked and over compensated for throwing everything out of whack.

1. A little carbon makes the throttle plate snag a little, putting wear on every component in the system. The TPS wears, throttle shafts wear and break, cables get stretched.
2. Plate cannot close 100%. This emulates vacuum leaks, won't idle, hard starting, rough running. Acts like TPS is off( it is- it cannot return to 0).
3. People fix or change everything listed throughout this post. Usually with out needing it. So now you've made it worse.
4. All the TPS has to do is find 0 every time the throttle closes. Carbon build up on the edge of the plate can stop it a first maybe only at a half degree. With a slight vacuum leak starting. Runs ok but not as good as it should. Then it builds a little more. Then compensating starts.

I once perfected a TPS setting on an 06 Uly, the third one I had trouble with, simply by plugging into the computer and seeing the numbers off. First thing I did was inspect the throttle bore to plate fitment with a magnifying lens and a light. I could feel the plate snagging just a bit. I got light to shine up in the intake with a tiny flash light. Sure enough not sealing.

I opened the throttle fully and could see the build up on the edge of the plate. So I forced it closed with my fingers. It stuck fast. Would not open with a light twist of the throttle. This told me a lot. Like why the setting would change, why the moving parts could all fail.

So I cleaned it with carburetor cleaner an a tiny super fine brass brush. Then it closed perfectly, completely, and most importantly back to perfect numbers for the TPS.

I fixed all of the complaints listed in this thread but one. Since the bike had started and been running like shit, the owner put new plugs in it. Brought it to me a few weeks later still running like shit. He argued about his new plugs. Didn't want to spend money on another set. So with it running much better,but still a little rough he came back after a few miles. I put the plugs out of my Uly in it which smoothed it right out.

When I see people doing all of this stuff to end up making it worse, I think wow, start with the basics.

Blipping. Never blip. It is a high performance electronically injected engine. When you blip you foul plugs a little at a time. You are killing it.

You ever start it up just to move it or just to hear it run? Never do that. It is a high performance engine that will kill the plugs if this is done for more than two or three starts per full warm up cycle. That is ten miles of riding.

You give it gas just after it starts to help it warm up? Never do that. When cold starting don't touch the throttle but just a little bit on first crank if needed, then as soon as it starts get your hand off the throttle. It may run rough at first but if all is well it'll smooth out. It has an ECM that knows more than any of us as to how much fuel it needs. Then when it is warm out give it at least three full minutes before touching that throttle. Then ride on, if it is cold out, like in the 30's give it up to ten minutes of no touch idle before mounting up.

Run only premium gas, alcohol or not, if there is any chance you will not use all of the fuel in the tank, so that you can have premium in it when parked. If you are going out to burn through a tank or more it'll run fine on regular. Just get premium in it be for parking it.

You said you started it a bunch of times to test it. Don't do that.

The battery cable bolts will work loose even with star washers, so check them frequently.
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Shoggin
Posted on Saturday, January 18, 2020 - 02:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Blipping. Never blip... When you blip you foul plugs a little at a time. You are killing it.

You ever start it up just to move it or just to hear it run? Never do that. .... ten miles of riding.

"You give it gas just after it starts to help it warm up?" Never do that.

You said you started it a bunch of times to test it. Don't do that.

x eleventy-million.

That should be a Buell sticky ^^^^^ Thanks for posting that Etennuly
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Etennuly
Posted on Saturday, January 18, 2020 - 11:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks. It should be on those little permanent type of warning stickers. Right on the air box cover by the fuel cap.
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Etennuly
Posted on Sunday, January 19, 2020 - 12:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The best way to understand normal cold characteristics of this Buell 1203 cc. air cooled engine, think of it as a cammed up 454, ported, domed pistons, Holley 1150 cfm carb with no choke and four big squirters.

That is how, if you want the XB to run right every time, you must treat it.

Think of this when desiring to blip it.
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Griffmeister
Posted on Sunday, January 19, 2020 - 03:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Another way to look at it is every time you blip the throttle the ECU is expecting the bike to be moving and needing power.
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Mark_weiss
Posted on Sunday, January 19, 2020 - 10:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Never really have had any warm-up issues. Above 70, just start up and ride. In the 30s, less than 60 seconds before heading down the street. Never a problem.

Blipping the throttle with a cold engine is normally bad for anything, does not have to be a Buell.
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Fernus
Posted on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 - 11:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

When I was testing the start function my engine was already hot. I know its not good to start it shut it down and start right away so I warmed it first. Blipping might not be good but it shouldn't cause the engine to cough, sputter or fart. It sometimes did that to me as I'm trying to merge into traffic. Not fun. I've seen you tube vids of XB12s being blipped so I know its possible. I'm not saying it's good or recommended but I blip before down shifts and merging at times and will keep tweaking until the coughing goes away if it returns.
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Mark_weiss
Posted on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 - 01:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I agree, with a warmed up engine blipping the throttle should not cause a problem. The issues occur when all of the top end parts are operating at differing temperatures.
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