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Cupcake_mike
Posted on Friday, June 07, 2019 - 12:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Sorry for the length but I'm trying to be as detailed as possible about what has gone down the last few days.

So, bike has 90k miles on it, about 3k miles ago the (original) clutch started slipping out of the blue. Im talking felt slightly weird when i left the house, within 20 miles i was on the side of the road because it wouldn't grab at all. I put lower bars on the bike and the stock clutch cable was too long now and i pushed it down through the top tree so it wouldn't block the gauges. Pretty sure this is what fried the clutch (in addition to age) as the cable likely wasn't fully releasing the clutch. So, i ordered the barnett kit from sphd (306-30-20015) and the shorter lightening cable and installed them, my original friction disks were below spec by a few thou. Everything went in fine, no issues, worked great.

Fast forward a few weeks and about 2500 miles, I'm coming back from homecoming/race weekend about 300 miles from home, i pull off the highway and at the stop sign at the bottom of the ramp, with the clutch pulled in, i shift from neutral to first and the bike takes off (and then dies) like my clutch cable broke. Now remember, ive had absolutely no problem up until this point. I pull to the shoulder, get out my tools and remove the inspection/derby covers and everything looks fine, check the cable end at the lever, also fine. Pulling the clutch lever the ramp activates as it should and i can see the clutch pack moving. Fluid level is good. I do the clutch adjustment procedure (cable and behind derby cover). No joy.

I happen to be pointing down hill so i ride clutchless to the gas station, fillup and head down the road, still without a clutch. 160 miles later it's time for gas again but the hills are against me this time and there's a light...i can't get it to go and it's getting late so i call AAA and get a motel. Spend a couple hours in the parking lot messing with everything i can and still no joy. Also, i apparently fried my 3 year old battery through this ordeal, as when i turn on the ignition my installed lcd voltage gauge starts at 6 volts and then goes up to 12.3 but if i thumb the starter i just get the click and gauge sweep. Battery might be a coincidence, haven't ventured down that rabbit hole yet.

Get the bike home and tear it apart. Ears on the primary cover aren't broken, steel plates aren't warped, friction plates are within a thou of what they were new. Throwout bearing feels smooth and all circlips and retaining rings seem to be fine. Damper spring and seat look good. The clutch basket and pressure plate show no signs of abuse. I put it all back together after cleaning and resoaking the plates and go through the adjustment procedure again and notice that the point in which i think the adjuster bolt is "lightly bottomed" may not be bottom at all but just a galled thread. At this point the bolt is about 3/8" proud of the adjuster nut, if i give it a bit more force i can get 3 or so more turns out of it and the bolt is now above nut about 1/2". At both spots i back the adjuster off a half turn per the manual. At the 1/2" adjustment point i can hardley squeeze the clutch and appears the ramp is already fully engaged. So, can anyone tell me if that bolt should be 3/8 or 1/2" proud of the adjuster nut? Im almost positive the 1/2" is way to much but i don't know. Anyway, i adjust the cable slack out for both these scenarios and neither one results in me having a working clutch.

I take everything apart again just to make sure i didn't screw anything up and put it back together, still nothing. I even replace the barnett steel plates with the stock ones, nothing. I completely refit the stock clutch, still nothing. The only thing i haven't done up until this point is fill the primary with fluid, because i keep taking the cover on and off and don't want to waste the fluid, but the plates were all soaked so they should be slick enough to work under no load, right?

Anyone have any insight that i might be overlooking before i roll this thing out into the back pasture, set it on fire, and collect the insurance money?
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Tootal
Posted on Friday, June 07, 2019 - 11:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Damn Mike, that's crazy! Just to clarify, you loosened the cable first and then set the clutch. After clutch is set then reset the cable. When I set the clutch I wiggled the cam while I ran the screw in. At first I felt it hit but as I wiggled the cam it stopped wiggling when I reached the bottom. At this point I back off the recommended amount. So in your case back off the cable again. Reset the clutch by wiggling the cam and turning the screw in until the cam won't wiggle anymore and back it off. Then reset the cable.

The only other thing I can think of is if the clutch is grooved badly where the disk are and they are not sliding sideways in the basket. That would seem obvious and I'm sure you've checked that but at this point I'm just spit balling!

If you collect on the insurance let me know, I'll bring the marshmallows!
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Natexlh1000
Posted on Friday, June 07, 2019 - 11:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Is it possible that the bearing between the inside and outside is fungled up somehow?
My 2008 bearing started to rumble while it was still under warranty. That was only at 20,000 miles or so I think.

This is one of those times where it may make sense to bring it to a dealer.
That clutch isn't some space magic or anything.
Someone that deals with sportster clutches on a regular basis would be likely to see some subtle thing.

At least you can get at all of this crap without popping the cases open.
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Raceautobody
Posted on Friday, June 07, 2019 - 02:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Are you sure the primary cover isn't cracked where the ramp is It is fairly common
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Raceautobody
Posted on Friday, June 07, 2019 - 03:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Also with that many miles on it could the ramp be worn, all three balls still in it?
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Cupcake_mike
Posted on Saturday, June 15, 2019 - 09:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

No crack in the cover, ramp is good, all balls and fresh grease.

Did the take apart/put back together dance a few times today with no luck. The faces of the basket that the steel and friction plates ride against look great. About the only thing i noticed is a groove on the inside, just deeper than the one that retaining ring that holds the pressure plate fits into. I can't really figure out why it would be there. It isn't in contact with the friction or steels and doesn't affect the pressure plate seating so i can't so how the groove would be an issue, but i don't remember seeing it the first time.

Anyone have a bare xb basket they could snap a picture of that inner surface for me? That way i can see if that groove should be there.
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Ourdee
Posted on Saturday, June 15, 2019 - 10:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)



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Tootal
Posted on Sunday, June 16, 2019 - 01:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Mike, here's the exploded view from the factory manual. I don't see a groove where I'm assuming you mean. It looks like there's a damper spring and damper spring seat that goes on before the friction and steel plates on the factory clutch.



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Cupcake_mike
Posted on Sunday, June 16, 2019 - 03:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks Greg, i have the manual...per barnett's instructions that damper spring and seat stay... the groove im talking about is on the very inside of the basket, not where the frictions and steels ride. there are no references to that groove in drawings or pictures in the manual, which is why i was looking to see if anyone could snap a picture for me.

Im off work Thursday, I'll try calling barnett then and see what they have to say.
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Ourdee
Posted on Sunday, June 16, 2019 - 06:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Pictures please.
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Cupcake_mike
Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2019 - 05:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Ive danced round and round with this thing but she just won't behave. Called barnett, they had no advice other than "the steel plates must be warped", even after i explained i'd checked that on a certified flat piece of granite. Of course they wouldn't send me a set of new ones under warranty just to be sure, because come on the clutch only has 3k on it.

No shops within 100 miles will touch it because i said the "b" word, idiots.

Only thing i can figure on my own before i road trip her to someone in the back of my 55 yr old, 8 mpg truck is that either the basket or throwout bearing assembly/rod must be the culprit. I have a blown up m2 engine in the shop waiting to be rebuilt and I'm wondering if the tuber stuff is the same as the xb as far as that stuff goes? Sure looks like it to me.

Anybody have a reason why the m2 stuff won't work in the uly?
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_buelligan_
Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2019 - 07:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The inner hub and throw out bearing assembly are the same between the tubers and Xb's. The outer clutch hub and clutch discs themselves are different. The ID and OD size of the discs are the same but the stack thickness is shorter to make up for the compensating springs on the back of the clutch basket. You can also replace the whole assembly with the M2 assembly but you'll lose the compensating smoothness when engaging/disengaging the clutch.
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Cupcake_mike
Posted on Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 03:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

This is good news, thanks for the insight buelligan

Try to tackle this job my next day off.
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Ourdee
Posted on Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 06:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Still watching.
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Cupcake_mike
Posted on Wednesday, July 03, 2019 - 08:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I can attest that the throwout bearing and ramp assembly are the same between m2 and uly, but the rod in the center of the throwout bearing is longer on the m2 (by approximately 1/2"), so its not a straight swap...that's all the farther ive gotten on it.

Been building a walipini greenhouse for the old lady as of late so not much time to spend on the uly, or maybe im just too tired.
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Cupcake_mike
Posted on Friday, July 19, 2019 - 07:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Ok, so i tried the cyclone clutch pack, with the uly throwout bearing/rod, still no disengagement.

Tried the known good xb clutch pack Marc sent me, nope.

Tried the original again, but changed out the spring plate with a new one from the dealer, didn't work either.

Ive taken everything apart and can't see any problem with any of the parts...lip on the primary cover is perfect. The ramp and cable have also not been changed but those are easy to inspect.

Im at a complete loss. Anybody have any off the wall ideas i haven't thought of?
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Mark_weiss
Posted on Friday, July 19, 2019 - 07:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Did you remove the hub and basket? Is it possible that the basket is seized to the input shaft?
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Odd
Posted on Friday, July 19, 2019 - 08:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

off the wall, did you put part number 30 that washer behind the xb clutch? I'm pretty sure it does not go behind the cyclone clutch pack just the xb clutch pack
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Cupcake_mike
Posted on Saturday, July 20, 2019 - 12:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Basket has been off the shaft more times than I can remember. I tried the cyclone basket both with that washer and without. Its there with the xb basket.

(Message edited by Cupcake Mike on July 20, 2019)
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Odd
Posted on Saturday, July 20, 2019 - 09:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Not sure what the manual says, but we always set the clutch by making sure the cable was totally loose then adjust part 3 in the manual till you start to feel pressure on your screwdriver back off till you find the sweet spot between pressure and no pressure then back it off one quarter turn,and make sure part 3 is seated correctly into part 4
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Steveford
Posted on Saturday, July 20, 2019 - 02:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Is the clutch assembly loose on the shaft?
I think that's what led to mine taking a dump but I'm still in Triumph Tiger rebuild mode so haven't look at it yet.
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Cupcake_mike
Posted on Sunday, July 21, 2019 - 12:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The basket is not loose on the mainshaft. Splines are good on the shaft and the basket, the nut is torqued to whatever it's supposed to be (can't remember the number off the top of my head).

I've done that damn adjustment procedure so many times in the last month and a half i could do it in my sleep....backoff the cable already completely, turn the adjuster screw until lightly bottomed, back off a 1/4 to 1/2 turn, place the lock nut, adjust the cable adjuster til you have 1/8" play at the lever, squeeze the lever 3 times to "set the ramp", blah, blah.
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Tootal
Posted on Sunday, July 21, 2019 - 11:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

It's too bad the cam is in the cover, otherwise you could see what was going on. When you're all back together can you hear the clutch disengaging? Can you hear it move at all? Does the clutch lever feel normal? Are you trying to start it or just pushing it. I know on the old dirt bikes they'd stick after sitting a while and we had to pull in the clutch and rev them and jam them into gear to break them loose sometimes. Harder to do on the Uly though!
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Ourdee
Posted on Sunday, July 21, 2019 - 12:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Did you soak the plates in oil for a while prior to installing?
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Cupcake_mike
Posted on Monday, July 22, 2019 - 11:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Plates/frictions were all soaked before install, and have been periodically resoaked over time. The plates arent stuck together because every time I remove the pressure plate they practically fall out with very little coaxing. Clutch lever feels normal, I can see the stack moving in and out when I pull the lever. The bike is on my lift table with the rear wheel on a pitbull stand so I can (try to) spin it. If I start it, once i pull in the clutch and go to shift it into 1st it acts like I dont have the clutch pulled in, obviously on a wheel stand this isnt really an issue, but with the "load" of the ground holding the wheel it will kill the engine.

A buddy mentioned that i should take everything out of the basket, with the transmission in gear, and see if it works then, the inner hub moves with the drive belt, the outer with the primary chain. Hadn't thought about this before, will try it next time I get a chance. That way I can see where the problem is originating from.
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Ourdee
Posted on Tuesday, July 23, 2019 - 12:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I would try the buddies idea. If it moves, slowly add parts till it locks up.
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Cupcake_mike
Posted on Friday, August 09, 2019 - 10:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Drum roll please!!!!!!

Fixed it! Put about 500 miles on the uly this week with no problems whatsoever.

I'm sure you are all wondering what the answer was and I'll tell you...I have no frickin clue other than maybe the lightening cable somehow wasn't playing nice? Or twelfth time was the charm? I took it all apart, again, and very carefully (again) checked for distorted steels and measured the friction thickness. All was good, so I re-soaked them. Basket acted as it should with no discs in it, so I slowly re-assembled. With the shorter lightening cable it still wouldn't work so I took it off and compared it to the original uly cable-stickout was the same, only difference is (obviously) the lightening cable is a few inches shorter (I installed that one because I put lower bars on the uly). Anyway, I tried the uly cable and rerouted it a bit to take up some slack and everything worked as it should.

I did find one casualty of riding with no clutch for 300 miles and i'll attach pics because I know how much ourdee loves them.


belt1


belt2


only 8k on it : (
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Tootal
Posted on Friday, August 09, 2019 - 11:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Holy crap Batman!! I'm really glad you found it but who would of thunk it? That's really strange but I'm glad it's back on the road.
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Hughlysses
Posted on Friday, August 09, 2019 - 11:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

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Ourdee
Posted on Friday, August 09, 2019 - 12:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I do like pictures. So, a buttoned up side case with a Lightning cable on a Uly is bad mojo. I ate some teeth off my first Uly belt rather quickly. All was better when I stopped being mean to it with power shifts. That may not be the correct term. It is what I call staying on the throttle and bumping the clutch while shifting near red line. I had got away with it on everything but my Jeep till the Uly. I would guess you lost belt integrity during down shifts while the suspension was un-compressed. And the teeth peeled off when the throttle was abruptly applied in first gear. I would hazard a guess that if the clutch was working you would have broke the belt in one because it is near impossible to break in two.
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Steveford
Posted on Friday, August 09, 2019 - 08:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

FWIW my old Useless has used two Lightning cables for 127,000 miles before my clutch totally screwed up.
It's not a shorter cable (for lower bars) that's doing it but glad your clutch is working again.
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Ourdee
Posted on Friday, August 09, 2019 - 08:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Or so, a buttoned up side case with a Lightning cable on a Uly is not bad mojo.
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Cupcake_mike
Posted on Friday, August 09, 2019 - 10:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I agree Steve, I see no reason why that would've effected anything. Either my cable was bad or its just a coincidence, was the point I was trying to make.
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