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Buell Forum » Big, Bad & Dirty (Buell XB12X Ulysses Adventure Board) » Stupid (*@^*&^$ kickstand bolts « Previous Next »

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Ratbuell
Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2018 - 09:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

So, I replaced my factory bolts with studs, and double-nutted them. Loctited into the case.

They're still backing out.

I'm tempted to JB Weld the bastards in, but if one ever breaks at that point....

Hey Vern - you going to mass-produce your muffler stand setup?
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Natexlh1000
Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2018 - 10:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I don't think they just unscrew.
I think they stretch and THEN unscrew.

If they gain just a teeny bit of clearance, the leverage is really against them.

Perhaps safety wire them so that they are under clockwise tension?
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Tootal
Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2018 - 10:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

If you red loctited the studs and double nutted and it got loose then I think the aluminum threads are pulling out slowly.
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Ratbuell
Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2018 - 10:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Don't say that. I already replaced the primary cover because the shoe threads were pulled out. I didn't use red - I keep blue on hand. Maybe I'll try some red this time, after I check out the threads.

Oh well. If they are pulling, at least there's enough meat to go up a size. Maybe 5/16" bolts will hold longer...
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Ourdee
Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2018 - 10:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

5/16" with castle nuts and safety wire?
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Tootal
Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2018 - 10:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I've never had an issue so I've never paid any attention to it. They used 1/4" bolts??? If so then I can see why there are issues. That's a lot of pressure for that small of a fastener. I'll have to go and take a look at mine and see what's up, sorry your having an issue with it. When you're dealing with cast aluminum you never know how tough it's going to be. The cases on my old 91 Harley were soft on the right half. The studs pulled out and a crack formed in the threads of the oil pressure sending unit hole. The left side was fine. Not all castings are created equal.
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Ratbuell
Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2018 - 10:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Or cross-drill the studs for the castle nuts, and run a freakin cotter pin through both studs to make an "H" arrangement.

Maybe I should go back to my stock X sidestand with the small foot, instead of the factory XT stand I have on it, with what looks like a putter head on it...
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Teeps
Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2018 - 11:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Going all the way back to the side stand bolt recall...
After the dealer replaced the bolts per the recall. The replacement bolts never gave a problem.

Blast from the past: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/142 838/370519.html
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Hughlysses
Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2018 - 11:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Is there enough meat to put Timeserts into the case and then install the studs? That would spread the load over a wider area of aluminum due to the bigger threads on the Timesert.

I remember reading about that as a fix on a new Ural model on ADVrider a few years ago. A guy was doing a cross-country ride / demo test for the US dealers and after a few hundred miles, the cylinder studs started pulling out of the crankcase. He took it to a dealer and they installed Timeserts on all the cylinder studs. No more issues.
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Ratbuell
Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2018 - 11:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yeah, I had the recall done years ago. One still backed out, bent, snapped. Granted it snapped in '14 or '15...

I'll have to figure something out one evening. Fighting a broken bolt on another project tonight, gotta get my torch out of the rental apartment tonight after work...
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Tootal
Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2018 - 01:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hugh, I fixed it by buying S&S cases and crank, RevTech dual plugged 10:1 heads and Bassani 2:1 pipe. Only thing left HD were the cylinders and carburetor and even it was modified! The best engine I ever built!

Timeserts are awesome and would be a great answer to the kick stand problem.
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Etennuly
Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2018 - 04:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Timeserts as small as possible may be the answer.

I would think 5/16 would work well if yours can be removed without damage to the holes.

Mine went ugly from the start. I ended up going to 3/8, which by the time they got tapped made the walls too thin. And as far as I can figure one of the boss' had cracked in the incident that caused mine to break.

I've been too busy to get back to my long term testing of the Uly side stand on the muffler bracket. On this deal I went to 1/2 diameter bolts so the only challenges should be breaking the muffler loose or ripping the bracket right off from it.

It is still working so far.

Joe, sorry to see you having this problem. If I had the options you are facing I would buy factory bolts from HD and red lock tite them in.

At 65,000 miles, a lot of two up service, mine would have not failed but for a long wild ride in the back of a truck that had the bike repeatedly bouncing vertically over and over on to the stand. It had even bent the stand tube to needing to be pressed back to straight. It was hitting incredibly hard, leaving dent marks in a hardwood truck floor.
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Ratbuell
Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2018 - 05:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yeah, I can unscrew mine by hand. I know, because I just finger-tightened them out of curiosity. I'll clear the remains of my S2 off the lift and lock down the Uly, pull the muffler, hit the cases with a file to make sure the faces are flat and level...and figure something out. Just aggravating, especially after a season of non-riding due to injury...get back on, and a week in, this is going on. Grrr. But I need to tweak my primary anyway - got it a little tight I think, neutral is hiding from me and there's quite a bit of vibration when I ride..."service touchup work" for the stuff I did wrong on the service ; )
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Griffmeister
Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2018 - 11:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Two considerations for Loctite in this application. Aluminum is considered an inactive metal and would require the use of either a primer first or a primerless product. That means if you have 242 then you need primer, 243 is primerless. Second is heat since this is very close to the muffler. I don't know what temps the stand bolts might be exposed to, but just as an example, the regular grades of Loctite are good for up to 300 degrees f. Maybe there's enough air gap that this is okay. Just something else to chew on.
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Hughlysses
Posted on Friday, August 31, 2018 - 05:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

If you remove the studs and the metal is raised around the threaded holes, that would seem to confirm that the studs are pulling out. If there’s no evidence of that, it would seem to point to the Locktite weakening at temperature. Based on that, you could decide whether to go to the trouble to install Timeserts or use higher Temp Locktite.
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Ratbuell
Posted on Saturday, September 01, 2018 - 09:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I wasn't going to file based on threads pulling out, but only to make sure the mating surface to the stand base was flat and true. I know that's led to some plate 'wobble' in some cases which can lead to bolt stretch.

Turning them back in by hand was stupid-easy so I don't think my threads are boogered at all, but time will tell once I get around to actually doing the work on it.
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Tootal
Posted on Saturday, September 01, 2018 - 11:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

For those that don't know, you should never clean aluminum threads by using a tap. The tap is oversize and will remove more aluminum making the thread weaker. They make thread cleaning screws that are designed just for this that won't remove any aluminum. You can make your own by taking a grade 5 or 8 quality bolt and putting 1 to 3 grooves in the threads with a cut off wheel. Any gunk or old loctite will collect in the grooves and clean the threads.

Joe, when you said they screwed back in "stupid easy" it reminded me of what I've experienced when I used a tap to clean out a threaded hole. Before I learned better. I'm not saying you did this, just that you reminded me of this.
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Natexlh1000
Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2018 - 10:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

One of my favorite tricks for cleaning threads is to take a correctly sized bolt with undamaged threads and cut a slit down the side with a dremel wheel.
Just make sure you check the threads where the dremel was and make sure no burrs are hanging off
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Ratbuell
Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2018 - 12:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

anytime I do anything like that, I run a tap up the bolt in question first. Then, I cut the slot. Then, running the tap (wait...die, not tap) down the bolt to get it off will clean any burrs without having to "start" it fresh. If I don't have a proper die, I just run a nut up there before slotting, and the nut can clean it just as well.
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Etennuly
Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2018 - 10:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

So I just re read your first statement about your having put studs in place of the Original bolts.

Threads work based on resistance over surface, as bolts tighten they stretch causing friction on their inclined plains. When you screw in a stud then double nut it the main stretch force is between the nuts. By double nutting it you may have released the stud's stretch tightening force, in effect loosening the stud while having nut to nut plenty tight.

On a stud double nutting is the same as building a bolt head on the stud, making it no more than a bolt. The stud needs to be mechanically secure before any nuts will make it hold better or stronger than a bolt.
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Ratbuell
Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2018 - 12:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Tightening the first nut should - in theory - put stretch-load on the threads in the case and through the stand baseplate. The second nut only serves to help lock the first nut in place.

Mayhap this time around I'll replace the 2 nuts with a single nylock - or, given the heat in the area, a pinch-lock nut.

I'll run a die down the studs when I take them out (they're not really "studs" but bolts that I cut the heads off of, primarily to avoid any bottom-out mis-torques), to make sure they're not warped or pre-stretched. My thought process on them was along the lines of ARP cylinder head studs - thread the stud into the engine block, slide the head onto the studs, and nut down the head. Stud is stronger, and you're not twisting the stud itself (like the shaft of a bolt) as you tighten/torque the nut, so you're getting a clean "pull" on the threads through the stud body.
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Etennuly
Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2018 - 04:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yes. I know what you are seeing. But the head studs are torqued and glued into place. Studs often have a tightening head or flat area for tightening to torque, and often fine threads on the permanent side. That gives them the stretch locking torque.

When you screw studs into the holes then pull torque on them with a nut, you have only static torque on the stud's threads, not the twisting stretch of a torqued bolt.
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Tootal
Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2018 - 08:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Speaking of the cyl./head studs. If they don't have the "flat" to bottom out on you can drop a ball bearing into the holes and have the studs bottom out on the ball. That's how my Harley is set up and this is how my friend the engine builder sets them up. So bottoming out the studs is not a bad thing.
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Teeps
Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2018 - 12:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Buell could have done a better job on the side stand mount design, and they did, in subsequent years, by adding the 3rd bolt.
That does not change the fact that there are/were thousands of 2 bolt Ulysses out there, that have not suffered side stand bolt failure.

Rat,
Assuming the threaded holes are not compromised, fresh* stock bolts will do the job when installed properly.
That's my opinion, observation and experience and I'm sticking to it.

* as discussed years ago the bolts come with a lubricating and locking compound from Buell parts, the compound HAS a shelf life...
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Ratbuell
Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2018 - 12:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Bottoming out a bolt is bad, if the bolt is too long for the hole and there is no pressure from the bolt head on the kickstand baseplate...the bolt may be "tight", but only against the bottom of the hole, not against the part it's meant to attach.
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Tootal
Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2018 - 01:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I was talking about a stud, not a bolt. You are correct about a bolt.
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Etennuly
Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2018 - 08:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

You could measure the depth of the hole and allow a 16 th.
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