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Tempest766
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2018 - 04:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The opinions explaining the front end knock when braking have been been well covered in the archives, so no need to rehash those. My question/problem is that the service manual for the 08 xt doesn't seem to cover the process for retorquing/tighenning the steering bearings. Looks like they make some minor mention of checking the tension and then replacing them if they are out of spec. Then, the process of replacing them requires a ridiculous amount of disassembly.

Can they be tightened without too much disassembly? What exactly needs to be removed to do so, and what would be the pre-tension/torque process for simply tightening them?

Thoughts?
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Ishai
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2018 - 07:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Same question for 2010 Uly X...


Ishai
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Griffmeister
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2018 - 08:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Are you on page 1-32 for steering head maintenance? The first part of checking tension involves loosening the steering head bolt several turns then re-torquing to 38-42 lb/ft. Thereís a few more steps but thatís the basic idea. You might have to move the handlebars out of the way to get an allen socket on the bolt. I donít remember that part on the Uly.
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Ourdee
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2018 - 10:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I thought you had to loosen the clamps on the forks too.
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Griffmeister
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2018 - 10:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Like I say, that's the basic idea. Definitely need to refer to service manual. You actually have to remove the top pinch bolt and loosen some others I think. Unfortunately do not have manual in front of me, but Tempest has manual, just needs to be on right page.
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Tempest766
Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2018 - 01:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks guys. Reading those manuals is sometimes worse than trying to glean information from a multi-lingual consumer appliance user guide. I see now what must be done with loosening some of the alan bolts, and then the stem cap. Assuming I have the right alan wrench fittings for my socket set and torque wrench it shouldn't be too much trouble now.
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Etennuly
Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2018 - 06:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Unless you have offsets the bars are in the way. You must have straight down access to the Allen nut in the center hole of that cap nut. Loosen the cap nut, tighten the Allen bolt, re torque the nut.

But the confusion comes in on how tight. The SM wants everything off the bars for a pure resistance measurement. I think it was like 7 pounds pulling force lock to lock. You will likely not do that.

Get the front tire just off the ground to where you can sit on the bike. If the bearings are indeed loose and not rusted up or damaged, the bars will kind of flop in a lock to lock turn. You will only feel resistance when at the same time you see cables or wires pulling tight.

The only way I have seen to feel or see that loose knock is to have an assistant pull forward on the front wheel as you hold the brake.

I found the loosest spot in the lock to lock turn arc. Near center. After you unbolt the bar clamps, have towels there to pad the bars from damaging everything. Turn the forks back and forth while tightening the Allen bolt. When you start to feel resistance stop. Tighten it about another 5 degrees arc then install the bars. You should feel the looseness gone with a very minimal resistance through the stop to stop turn.

If you feel drag or tightness back it off a half turn and set it again. You do not want to force the bars to turn. Just a gentle push. All you are doing is adjusting the loose flop out of it, not making it hard to turn.
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Tootal
Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2018 - 10:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

1. Remove handlebars and place them on a towel laying on the air box. Sometimes it's better to hang them over the front of the bike, less likely to damage anything.
2. Remove the 4 lower fork clamp bolts.
3. Remove the clamp bolt on the stem cap nut. It's the one clamping the chrome nut on top.
4. Break loose the chrome stem nut. I like to clean the threads and use some anti-seize here. Some will say it messes with the torque spec. but to me it makes it more consistent since you're taking away the friction from the threads. I've had no problems with this method.
5. Install the chrome stem nut and torque to 40 ft/lbs.
6. Clean the old loctite from all bolts.
7. Install all the clamp bolts using blue loctite. The books says red but blue is for fasteners under 1/2" so make it easy on yourself next time by using blue.
8. Install your handlebars and see if your click went away!
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Teeps
Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2018 - 03:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

No need to remove handle bars... The steering stem nut can be accessed from the bottom of the stem, with a long extension.

I adjusted the alls balls taper set by feel.
Took a couple of tries but once set they didn't move or require any more tinkering.
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Natexlh1000
Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2018 - 03:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

That bottom of the stem thing is sneaky!
I love it.
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Teeps
Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2018 - 04:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The laziest person will find the easiest way to get a job done... don't ask me how I know.
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Shoggin
Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2018 - 07:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"The steering stem nut can be accessed from the bottom of the stem, with a long extension. "

You evil genius you!
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Tootal
Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2018 - 07:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

That can't be true, it's not in the book!!
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Teeps
Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2018 - 07:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

See my previous post......
Over 45 years of wrenching you learn stuff.
That nugget was a victory.

However, on the other hand. I can't count how many times I've out smarted myself and ended up going the long route to get to where I was going, metaphorically speaking, of course.
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1313
Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2018 - 12:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

3 cheers for Teeps!
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Tempest766
Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2018 - 12:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

All done, and combined with setting up the suspension to recommended specs, the 08 XT rides like a new bike. At least for me, there was some confusion in terminology. For others, note that it is the large chrome CAP itself that causes the bearing tension. It is not hiding a nut underneath. Spec said 38-42ft*lbs so I went with 42.

Also, you MUST remove handlebars to get to it. Laid mine forward with the brake reservoir hooked on the bug shield.
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Teeps
Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2018 - 12:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Maybe the XT is different.
I did this on a '06 Ulysses.
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Tootal
Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2018 - 02:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

No it's not hiding a nut underneath. I just went out and looked at my 06 Uly and sure enough, if you have the right allen socket you can use a 6" and two 3" extensions and reach the chrome nut on top. I didn't remember it being hollow. My 3/8" allen socket was too large in diameter since it was a replacement socket but the original Lisle brand would have fit. Nothing a lathe won't fix!
If you want to get technical, a torque wrench is only guaranteed to be accurate in one direction and since you are reversing everything it might not be as accurate unless you're using a beam type. The click type are probably close enough with a + or - 2 ft/lbs of tolerance.
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Teeps
Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2018 - 06:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

recently I had my Snap-On torque wrench calibration checked after 35 years of "lite" use.
It was right on the money in both directions, so not a problem.

Plus the actual torque is not critical, especially if tapered roller bearings are installed.
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Griffmeister
Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2018 - 07:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yeah, if your torque wrench is one direction only then youíre stuck with removing the handlebars. At least the adjustment worked out so you donít have to do any more work for now.
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1313
Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2018 - 12:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Maybe the XT is different.

My '08 XT isn't. My Kobalt allen socket fits up from the underneath without any issues.

As I said before - 3 cheers for Teeps!
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Mark_weiss
Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2018 - 06:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"I like to clean the threads and use some anti-seize here. Some will say it messes with the torque spec. but to me it makes it more consistent since you're taking away the friction from the threads. I've had no problems with this method."

Lubing threads which are expected to be torqued dry will result in higher than intended pressure. In many instances this will be OK, but not always. In the case of tapered roller bearings, over-torque (within reason) is OK. Under-torque is quite bad.
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Tootal
Posted on Friday, May 18, 2018 - 11:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

}Some will say it messes with the torque spec.

Lubing threads which are expected to be torqued dry will result in higher than intended pressure.


I told you so!

When I pulled mine apart, many years ago, the threads were corroded so after cleaning them I used anti-seize "lightly" to keep them from corroding again. It does give you a higher torque so I always use the lower end of the specs. So in this case I torqued to 38 ft/lbs. Torque can be different for many reasons and how course the threads are is a big part of it. That's why Harley/Buell heads are torqued lightly and then turned 90 degrees. This is more accurate and consistent than using a torque wrench at 42 ft/lbs.

So Mark is correct but my experience has been that I've never had an issue over torquing anything to the point of failure.
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Etennuly
Posted on Monday, May 21, 2018 - 01:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

No body mentioned stacking a foot of ratchet extensions will mess with your torque specs.
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Griffmeister
Posted on Monday, May 21, 2018 - 06:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Maybe when you gain torque from the neverseize and lose it to the extensions it becomes a wash?
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Smorris
Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2018 - 12:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

so is there an allen head both top and bottom on the same nut? to tighten from beneath is it counter - clockwise?

is it correct the clamp bolt on the stem nut and the the lower fork clamp bolts still need to be loosened as well?
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Etennuly
Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2018 - 07:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The Allen bolt is hollow all of the way through.

Yes loosening the clamp bolts is correct, I left it out of what I said earlier due to the age of the procedure for me. I did that about ten years ago on my Uly.....and being ten years older myself.....some say it has an affect, or is it effect??

There is another thing though. I believe in re using thread locker in this kind of situation. I loosen the clamp bolts enough the head has a gap to where it seats. Do the adjustment and retorque everything.
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Tootal
Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2018 - 10:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yes loosening the clamp bolts is correct, I left it out of what I said earlier due to the age of the procedure for me. I did that about ten years ago on my Uly.....and being ten years older myself.....some say it has an affect, or is it effect??

That's why it's nice to have the "collective"! What one forgets another remembers. As long as we don't all kill the same brain cell the truth will come out in the end!
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Teeps
Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2018 - 11:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)


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Etennuly
Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2018 - 09:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Ha ha, but if age hadn't multiplied gravitational forces ten fold, I could have got off my ass and looked it up!

Thanks for having my back.
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Tootal
Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2018 - 02:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Heck, thanks for having everyone's back! This whole forum is a Knowledge Vault. Just remember to read to the very end of the thread so you get everyone's input!
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Blake
Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2018 - 10:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Vern,

Extensions shouldn't affect torque so long as they are straight and rigid. Think of them as a drive shaft where the torque applied (input) at one end is transmitted without loss to the other (output) end. Put a gearbox (torque-multiplier) in between, and then you will see some losses. But you were being tongue-in-cheek I think, yes?

Talking about torquing: The embedded (in reinforced concrete) anchor bolts holding down big satellite earth-station antennas can get quite large, and embedded anchor bolts defy use of the much more precise "turn-of-the-nut" method. But regardless of bolt tensioning method, the torques required for well-lubricated installation can be on the order of 4,000 LB*FT (500 lbs applied to an 8' "cheater" baróyou wanna be the guy manning the torque wrench while bubba winches on the "cheater" bar?). In that case a 20:1 torque multiplier is a real godsend, except when they break in the middle of some remote jungle or Siberian tundra and you have a full crew twiddling thumbs while you deal with the local crime syndicate to get the new multiplier through "customs". Holding tools hostage is a LOT less trouble than holding living people. It's big business in some places, including Russia.

I digress...

Unless a particular highly controlled (special lube/wax-coated and stored in sealed packs) bolted connection system is specifically measured and calibrated for bolt tension versus torque, then torque is a very loose and unreliable means of achieving a desired bolt tension (clamping force). The typical range of accuracy being on the order of +/- 40%. Get a little grit between nut and washer/part, and the pretension at specified torque can drop to less than a quarter of that desired.

The friction between threads and between the nut/bolt and the faying surfaces of the part/washer being clamped is just way too variable.

So I concur with your method as most reliable; cleaning and lubricating the connection most likely achieves the best approximation to the factory conditions for torquing.

All that said, for steering head bearing preload I use the tighten by feel method you describe. : )




And for the record, this is a great thread.
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Shoggin
Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2018 - 03:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I'm with Blake on this wholeheartedly.

Torque specs good and should be followed, But they are just to narrow down what the ham handed masses can't figure out.
Simple things like a 1/2" o-ringed drain plug does NOT need 30 ft/lbs of torque... ahem.

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