|Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2017 - 10:21 pm: ||
Is there a beefed up stator/VR combo out there that will allow the Uly to power more goodies?
|Posted on Monday, February 20, 2017 - 07:51 am: ||
In your case, yes. The 2008-2010 bikes have a lower output single phase system than the 2003-2007 bikes with their three phase system
My understanding is that it can be retrofitted, but I don't know what it takes beyond the obvious of the stator/rotor and voltage regulator itself.
(Message edited by Froggy on February 20, 2017)
|Posted on Monday, February 20, 2017 - 06:55 pm: ||
But froggy, wouldn't a "lower output single phase system" have less power for goodies?
I have a regulator from roadster cycle (mosfet) and a stator from cycleectrics (part #6014) on my "06. the cycle electric stator is rated at 38 amps, which I believe is the same as stock...I dont know the numbers for the single phase system but I have heard they had failures with them due to lack of cooling? Seems like the rumor was people were switching back to the 3 phase from the single but this is strictly heresy as I have never owned one of that vintage.
|Posted on Monday, February 20, 2017 - 07:39 pm: ||
I think Froggy was talking about going backwards to the three phase setup. I think the biggest thing to worry about when using different parts is to watch out for clearance. As far as overheating, I think that was a problem with the 1125 which needed more oil flow through the rotor. Didn't Roadstercycle offer a stator, too? Wouldn't hurt to look.
|Posted on Monday, February 20, 2017 - 08:22 pm: ||
More phases should give a little more power, because there is a little more area under the curve(s). But probably not a lot, I'd guess maybe 10% real world.
What are you trying to power? I'd think that if you switched to a LED headlight and tail light, there would be enough power to literally bake you with heated gear.
A good battery will help a lot also. It will waste less power.
If you wanted to get fancy, you could probably make an alternative stator bell with rare earth magnets and get more out also, even with the same windings. It might not even be that expensive a retrofit. But you might fry your VR trying to stay on top of it unless you upgraded that also.
It was the 1125 stators that were the train wrecks. On the XB's, they have all been pretty solid if you stick with the factory gearbox lubricants.
|Posted on Monday, February 20, 2017 - 09:49 pm: ||
I looked up the specs on the two charging systems used on Ulys:
2008-up single phase alternator spec: 30-amp, permanent magnet, single-phase alternator with solid-state regulator (405W@3000 rpm, 405W peak)
2003-2007 three phase alternator spec: 38-amp permanent magnet 3-phase alternator with solid-state regulator (481 watts@3,000 rpm, 494 watts peak)
So, 76 more watts for the 3-phase unit or about 19% more output. I don't believe you'd have to change the rotor; just the stator and the voltage regulator.
There were some electrical issues on the 2006 & 2007 Ulys, but I believe these were universally traced to faulty "77" connectors, which were later corrected with an updated connector.
|Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2017 - 09:34 pm: ||
Perhaps the thing to do is to go three phase stator and get one of those Chinese series regulators to go with it?
It did seem odd that they actually went down in power output for 2008 and up.
Now that I have the new racing ECU with fan running all the time, I can't run my retina burners at the same time as my heated liner.
My choices are either to get LED face melters or to increase the power available.
|Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2017 - 12:00 am: ||
I've seen those stats as well, and like Natexlh1000, I find it puzzling that BUELL would have intentionally taken the stator output down on later-year models.
On an adventure bike, an engineer should expect the consumer to be rigging all sorts of electricity drawing farkles to their bikes.
Like Natexlh1000, I can't run both my PIAA lighting (dual 55 watt halogens) and my heated grips at surface-street speeds. It's OK on the highway above 3000 RPM - I get one solid green light - but between 1000 and 3000, the Kuryakyn is down to 1 flickering green light: not enough juice to keep the battery charged. And if I'm on surface streets, stuck in traffic, or at a red light, the meter drops to amber, a negative charge.
If you ask me, this lack of electrical capacity was a huge oversight in the design of what was meant to be a long range, all condition tourer.
EB got the whole hooligan thing down, but in some ways, the Uly is little more than a Sportster in drag.
|Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2017 - 12:20 am: ||
In 2006/2007, at least here, there were a rash of reports of failed stators on 06 and 07 Ulysses. I'll bet the problem was actually bad 77 connectors.
My guess is before the problem was conclusively identified as bad 77 connectors, the factory engineers started looking at a reduced output stator as a fix and just used the existing Sportster stator for the 08 bikes. By the time the problem was correctly identified it was too late to revert to the original stator.
This is sort of the reverse of what happened with the 1125's. Faulty ECM programming on the early 08 bikes lead to depleted batteries so a higher output stator was devised and fitted to the 09 bikes. This stator was prone to over-heating which resulted in failed stators. The original 08 stator was probably fine once the ECM programming was sorted.
|Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2017 - 12:36 am: ||
Bill, the Uly taillight is already LED. But an LED headlight would certainly help in output, efficiencylinders, and looks!
|Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2017 - 01:08 am: ||
Forgot to mention, I wonder if this thing is any good. Battery Tender Lith. Ion Battery...
https://www.amazon.com/Battery-Tender-BTL14A240C-L ithium-Phosphate/dp/B00F9LPJ8S/ref=s9u_simh_gw_i2? _encoding=UTF8&fpl=fresh&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_ rd_s=&pf_rd_r=JNK9QCB7AF39MSHTGSAZ&pf_rd_t=36701&p f_rd_p=1cded295-23b4-40b1-8da6-7c1c9eb81d33&pf_rd_ i=desktop
|Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2017 - 01:29 am: ||
Yes, my taillights are already LED's. However, my headlights are 55w HID's. But with so much advancement in LED technology, I am very interested in replacing my PIAA's with a pair of Denali or other LED units, as well as replacing my HID's with LED fitments. I will likely do this some day, when I have the $$$.
However, the current existence of low wattage, high lumen lighting options does not excuse the shortsightedness of creating an "adventure" bike that produces barely enough juice to power it's most basic stock accessories. Just my opinion, but if an aftermarket option for upping the stator output were available, I'd be interested.
My Uly is my only transpo. My bike is not a hobby, and I can't afford to put it on a stand and tinker with it for weeks or months on end to get it right. If an upgrade is not something I can buy, bolt on, and ride, It's not an option for me.
|Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2017 - 10:36 am: ||
HIDS are already helping you, so LED's won't be a big jump from that. If any of my HID's die I'll probably replace them with LED, but I wouldn't pull a HID that is working.
The stock stator, even with the stock headlight, works fine for the stock bike with 30 watts of heat under normal riding.
That's not enough to just throw power at a problem without regards to efficiency, but it should be enough to heat well implemented heated gear sufficiently under most conditions.
So the Buell engineers may have been thinking along the lines of somebody asking for a bigger garage.... "If you take time and thought to organize things, prune the junk, and keep things clean... the current garage is big enough. If you don't want to keep things organized and clean, you can't afford the garage that is big enough".
I'm not trying to come off as a jerk, but a good 55 watt HID is probably already illegally bright, so unless you are riding offroad, you probably already passed the point where adding light is making your ride safer by making it more dangerous for others to be on the road.
And maybe not even safer for yourself... do you want that confused, drunk, distracted, or overwhelmed pilot of 4 tons of steel that will be passing 2 feet from you at a closing speed of 140 MPH to also be blind?
|Posted on Monday, February 27, 2017 - 07:58 am: ||
If he has a 55W HID...that's still 55W.
The advantage of HID is the amount of lumens (brightness) per W of electricity. For example, a 35W HID puts out far more light than a 55W halogen.
LED is a completely different scale, whereas you can get 55W halogen levels of light, and consume only 10W.
But if he's using a 55W ballast...he's still using 55W of power.
That said...I run the OE stator on my 35k mile 06. I have replaced my 77 connector. I have a Roadstercycle MOSFET regulator. I have a factory battery (only the second one ever in the bike). Accessories:
35w HID low beam
LED high beam
PIAA 55w driving lights (high-beam toggled)
1125CR mirrors with LED signals
LED rear signal conversion
Gerbings 2-channel heated gear (rider)
Gerbings single-channel heat (passenger)
Buell heated grips
LED brakelight in topcase
Aux brakelight (actually a Whelen TIR3)
Police "wig-wag" flasher hooked to brakelights (factory and topcase)
My tank bag is wired to a cig lighter plug; I strap it on and plug it in, and I have a 12v outlet plus 3 USB outlets inside the bag. Using that doesn't even make the Kuryakyn meter twitch. The big power-eaters are the heated clothes, and the extra forward lighting.
This time of year, I use the battery tender because I'm not riding much. Riding season...nah. It does fine. The MOSFET was the single biggest upgrade I've made (I consider the 77 replacement a repair). I do notice a dip on the meter when I go to high beams with the heat on; my next step may be changing the PIAAs to some small LEDs but I don't know. I don't live with the high beams on, so it's not a serious issue for me.
I'm not sold on LED headlights. I have LED replacement H4 bulbs in my Daytona and while they have the lumens...the "flavor" of the lighting is weird. They're a standard 4300k color temp, but they just don't look "right". If you've ever used an LED flashlight, you can see the same phenomenon - it just looks different than an old-school halogen or quartz bulb. HID? Love 'em. If I do anything headlight-wise, I'm going to try and find a housing / reflector with a better output pattern than the OEM, and use the same 35w HID. I think the 4" reflector is simply too small to be used for primary forward lighting. It's not a wattage-thing...it's a focus-thing. It doesn't put the light in the right place out there on the road. A proper reflector - such as the E-spec (Euro) H4 conversion lights that I run in my Cherokee and my Daytona (these are Hella sealed beam conversion lamps) - puts the lumens that come out of the bulb exactly where you need it, on the road in front of you, down low, not blinding other drivers, and an upward-dip to the right to light up street signs and pedestrians. The high beam is simply gorgeous - long range, not too high, nicely centered, and a nice side-bleed for pedestrians and deer on the shoulders. The DOT should adopt Euro lighting specs - their shit WORKS.
That got a little tangential there, sorry, but for lighting...more isn't "better". You have to put the light in the right place. If you do that, you can use less power/wattage/brightness, still be able to see perfectly, and you won't blind other drivers in the process.
|Posted on Monday, February 27, 2017 - 10:46 am: ||
You may have a point with the reflector size idea.
I never had issue to hate on my X1 single headlight but have since day one seen my XB12X lights as lacking.
I used to put the hi/lo switch in the middle to light them both up.
I never understood why one has to be off.
Cars do this too.
Hi beam should be every damn thing in front ON!
I guess my first car's four beamers spoiled me. (1975 olds)
|Posted on Monday, February 27, 2017 - 01:02 pm: ||
Good correction about the 55 watt HID Rat, thank you.
I was coming at it from the other direction, thinking that X lumens from a HID and X Lumens from an LED are both going to be pretty close to Y watts. Both the HID and the LED are similarly efficient. Heck, the HID might even be better, I've seem some pretty hot LED's of late, and my HID doesn't need a cooling fan to survive a ride.
I haven't slapped a meter on my HID, but I wouldn't be surprised if they pretty much lie. Like 100 watt car stereos (that are lucky to be 10) and 100 HP motorcycles (measured at the brochure).
If I have the seat off and remember someday, I'll bypass the fuse and try it.
But like you say, the power on an XB for sure isn't excessive, but it does seem "enough".
And everyone should remember that the maximum power output of our stators is proportional to RPM. So you can increase your stator output just by downshifting.
|Posted on Wednesday, March 08, 2017 - 07:59 pm: ||
Going back to the 3-phase stator/vr setup is not an issue. I did it years ago on my 08STT.
|Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2017 - 04:48 pm: ||
So, here’s a little update on the combined Shorai / stator / low voltage saga.
I was experiencing severely depleting in my older led battery, such that my voltage meter went from strong double green, to flickering second green, to single green, to amber over the course or time. This was during my commute to work after winter set in. Due to the cold, rain, and poor visibility, I would often run various combinations of accessories; heated grips or auxiliary lighting, or both. It got to the point that the battery just gave up the ghost, and seemed to mot hold a charge at all.
My first assumption was that the battery was simply crapping out. It has a couple of years on it, riding in winter weather in Colorado, and it has been left dead for several months at one point. Thus, I elected to get a new battery and give a new Shorai a try. Shorai purchased and installed two weekends ago, I began my weekly commute.
During my first test ride with the new Shorai, the bike fired up sharp and strong. I had two brightly glowing green lights on the Kuryakyn, and I was able to run both grips and lights together with only a flickering second green at idle.
Everything seemed rosy – for about a week. Then things began to deteriorate the same way they did before. Only this time, rather than the power gradually running lower to the point that it wouldn’t start, with the Lithium Ion, the auxiliary power would cut off completely. The check engine light would come on and GPS, PIAA lights, and grips would just cut out. The engine and main lighting system kept going, but anything run directly off the battery was dead.
I had the old lead-acid battery on the Tender, so I swapped the batteries as soon as I got home. I fired it up and nothing seemed to be amiss, except, during the following weeks commute, the battery charge began to deteriorate again. At this point I decided to get a professional diagnostic and opinion. I made an appointment with the head Buell guy ad Latus Motors for the upcoming Saturday.
Overall I was expecting to get some horrible news like the stator was heading south or the VR was crapping out again or both – or perhaps an undetectable voltage leak somewhere deep in the loom. What I discovered, however was something a bit reassuring and yet annoying at the same time.
The tech, who in this case is pretty sharp and experiences, came back with an opinion that everything is working just as it is supposed to. He said that at idle the Buell XB stator only puts out about 13.1 volts, which is barely enough just to keep the battery form draining. He said that to get enough current out if that stator to get any sort of decent charge requires something over 3000 RPMs. Anything below that and the stator will be quickly overrun by minimal additional power demands. He said, he sees this all the time on Sportsters and it is often recommended for anyone who does a lot of low RPM commuting to plug the thing on a Tender every night.
Low RPM commuting now makes up 80% - 100% of my current riding, and it was exactly when I began this routine that things began to go awry, particularly after winter set in and I began running heating and lighting accessories daily.
I rode all year in Colorado as well, but the majority of my riding was freeway or highway. Now I will rarely break 3000 RPM at any time during my commute. I just hope now that I didn’t kill my Shorai dead.
Thanks for all of your past comments. They were all helpful guidance in my efforts to figure this whole thing out.
|Posted on Monday, March 20, 2017 - 11:20 am: ||
Crap. So nothing to do but drive it to work in first gear from now on?
|Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 - 07:35 pm: ||
My 06 xb12x with the cycle electric stator idles at 14.1 vdc, 14.2-14.3 at speed, according to the LCD I installed in the dash when my stock stator bit the dust.
I have a roadster cycle reg/rec installed as well.
If I have my high and low beam on, at idle, I get 13.9 vdc.
I dont know what the stock stator was putting out, because as I said, I only installed the LCD after the new was installed.
After shutting it off, if I turn it back on within about 4 hours, voltage will still be about 13.2 vdc, after that it degrads to 12.7 or so (longest I have gone without riding since I installed the new stator is 2 weeks and it hasn't been on a battery tender during that time).
|Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2017 - 01:05 am: ||
Cupcake M -
Where does one obtain the Cycle Electric Stator?
Do you think a different VR is necessary, or will the stock unit handle the extra juice?
|Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2017 - 08:47 am: ||
I got my stator from a buddy who runs a shop, Called cycle one manufacturing, I don't think you can buy direct from cycle electrics...that being said, I know that roadster cycle can get them if you decided to go through him for the reg/rec.
I think the stock reg/rec is fine with the cycle electric unit, its not a higher output unit, just higher quality/more reliable (strictly my opinion). I went to the roadster cycle/mosfet reg/rec simply because of its track record over the stock unit. I put them on all my bikes.
Reading your above post about what your tech said makes me wonder if he knows what he is talking about. He mentions low voltage at idle as a buell thing, which is BS, a stator puts out pretty much a constant voltage, its the amperage (or current) that goes up as it spins faster. We are talking max output at 2500 rpm, so I doubt you are commuting at engine speeds below that.
|Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2017 - 12:16 pm: ||
Hangetsu, if you did switch to the stator that Cupcake Mike is using, you will need a new regulator as like mentioned before, the older bikes have a 3 phase system and your current setup is single phase.
I do agree with Mike that something sounds off with what you were told. While it does produce less power at idle, peak output is at 3000RPMs on your stock 09. On my 08 (same stator as yours), I do sometimes see the voltage drop at idle with the fan, heated grips, heated jacket, and gloves running, at that point I just turn off the grips until I get moving and I am back in the green.
|Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2017 - 12:34 pm: ||
Thanks for all the input. Interesting thing is, now that it's a bit warmer and I don't run the heated grips at all, I run with two solid greens at any speed off idle. I have simply decided not to run the PIAA on surface streets, and that has helped as well. I also keep it in a gear that keeps the engine spinning just above 2500 rpm, and that has also helped.
My commute is not only slow speed; it is stop and go with a lot of time spent idling at stop lights. Under these conditions, if I ran either the PIAAs or the grips, the battery was getting insufficient charge, and it would be near dead after a couple of weeks. Choosing not to run the accessories and running the motor at slightly higher speeds has basically cured the problem. When I ride on the highway, I have no problem at all, though if I run both grips and lights at lowish RPM cruising speeds, the meter will drop to one green light.
Based on these results, what the Latus tech told me seems to hold water. He is the last holdout of Buell techs at Latus, he's an old-school Bueller himself, and he's serviced Buells through every generation of Buell's existence. I've had many a long conversation with the guy (sorry, don't recall his name), and he knows his s%$#. I trust him.
But that doesn't mean I'm not interested in making improvements where they can be made. If I can find a stator/vr combo that will give me GS like power capabilities, I'd be all over it.