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Teeps
Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2016 - 12:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Not to make more work; but I would check/reseal the valve guides too.
Further, if you hone the cylinders, have it done with a ridgid hone, preferably in a torque plate.

Back in my Honda days. The factory always recommended NOT honing cylinders, unless there were vertical scratches that could be felt with a finger nail. And, then, only with ridgid hone (no dingle berry hone.)
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Reepicheep
Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2016 - 01:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

That's what I thought also, don't hone Nicisil plated cylinders. Either reuse them, or replate them. If you can feel it with a fingernail, the plating has been compromised.

I don't know about HD valves, but Honda dirt bike valves and valve seats are also now hardened, and you shouldn't lap those in anymore. It just removes a protective coating (or more likely does nothing, as the protective coating is pretty protective). Not sure about HD valves.
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Firemanjim
Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2016 - 12:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Nikasil cannot be touched unless you have a diamond hone,honing those cylinders without torque plate no biggie. That is a bunch of carbon, I would replace the valve seals with good aftermarket and re-ring.Lapping should not be a problem , does not cut through coating--if Buell even uses this-- but a valve machine will cut through coating on valve,only do seats on my GSXRs.
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Dan_m
Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2016 - 08:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Ok, i see that you (Hughlysses and Firemanjim) are recommending me to install new set of rings. For me this is first time when i dig so deep into an engine, so i am learning new things. For example, up to yesterday i didn't knew what was valve lapping.
But can you please also explain to me why you suggest that i should also change the rings?
I made a search for rings, a set is not expensive but will a new set be a direct swap or there are chances that the gap from the new rings will not meet the specifications from the service manual?
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Reepicheep
Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2016 - 10:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

It's the opposite I think... if you get new rings you don't need to worry about the gap. The gap increases as the rings wear.

As Jim states, not much short of a diamond will touch the nicisil, so the rings are the wear item. They are effectively the seal on the combustion chamber.
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Tootal
Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2016 - 12:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The ring gap needs to be checked before the piston goes in the bore. You insert the ring in the bore and push it down with the piston about a 1/2" and then check the gap with a feeler gauge. The reason you check this is to make sure that when the ring gets hot and expands it won't touch the ends together and tighten in the bore. That is BAD!

If the rings don't have the proper gap you must file them and check them again and again until it's within tolerance. The ring manufacturer will have the specs with the instructions.

+1 with Jim. Get aftermarket valve guide seals. I like the Genuine James ones. They are blue with a spring around the top. So much better than stock!




James on left, stock on right. Now that's a stock Harley seal, I'm assuming that's what they put in the Buell. If not please correct me.

(Message edited by tootal on July 07, 2016)
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Hughlysses
Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2016 - 12:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

As Bill mentions, the piston rings are a wear component. They're relatively inexpensive, easy to replace, and your engine will be nearly like new and good for another ~50k (or more) miles after their replacement. You've already performed the ~$1000 worth of labor it takes to get to them; go ahead and replace them.

It's relatively simple to check ring gap. There are several youtube videos and instruction sheets by manufacturers on how to do it. Basically you insert the ring into the cylinder, and then push a piston in after it to square it up to the cylinder bore. Then you measure the gap by inserting feeler gauges until you find one that just slips in. If the ring gap is too small, you have to file the gap to give the minimum required clearance. You can buy a specialty tool to do this (a little hand-powered grinding wheel), or you can just clamp a file in a vice and use that. You must file from the outside of the ring towards the inside of the ring to avoid chipping the coating/plating on the outside of the ring.

(Message edited by Hughlysses on July 07, 2016)
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Teeps
Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2016 - 12:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

With all the talk about Nikasil.
I thought XB12 cylinders were industry standard iron liners, am I wrong?
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Reepicheep
Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2016 - 01:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I assumed all the Buell cylinders were Nikasil plated directly to the aluminum! I could be totally wrong.

Dang, my apologies for the misinformation if I am.
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Dan_m
Posted on Friday, July 08, 2016 - 02:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks for explanations. I will replace the rings also.
Continuing my investigation: yesterday i was planning to remove the oil pump to inspect it, and also the cam gears. A friend called me to help him with an oil change on his bike, so i had to stop my work. All i managed to do was to remove the pump cover. I was astonished from what i found between the scavenge gerotor gear set:






It is a rubbery material, same as latex. I have no idea how this material got in the oiling system. I am very curious what i will find in the oil filter.
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Dan_m
Posted on Friday, July 08, 2016 - 02:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I also forgot to add in the previous post that i never saw the oil light on with the engine running.
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Reepicheep
Posted on Friday, July 08, 2016 - 07:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Is the history of the bike known? I bought a KLR-250 in a bucket to get parts for, well, another KLR-250 in a bucket. And the PO had used RTV by the fistfull all over that bike. Big pieces had shed all through the motor, collapsing a sump screen from the oil pressure, after which point the junk just circulated through the engine for who knows how long.

Looks like a similar situation there. Not a happy day for the bearings on that oil pump, but maybe survivable.
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Hughlysses
Posted on Friday, July 08, 2016 - 07:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Something like RTV is used to seal the two halves of the crankcases together. I can't imagine where else it would have come from. I'd continue disassembling the oil pump to make sure the rotors and visible passages are clear and blow air through the smaller oil passages to make sure they're clear.
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Tootal
Posted on Friday, July 08, 2016 - 02:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Dude, your bike has a tape worm!!

I was going to say I've never seen that before but then remembered I found a finger off a rubber glove in the suction side of an oil pump on a CO2 compressor! I just overhauled the machine and it kicked off on low oil pressure. Oh CRAP! I was so glad I found that finger!!

The good thing is you found something! I hate it when there's a problem and you don't find anything!
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Sagehawk
Posted on Friday, July 08, 2016 - 03:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Scavenge rotor or feed rotor, Which rotor is goop is at?
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Dan_m
Posted on Monday, July 18, 2016 - 04:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

@Sagehawk: i found this at scavenge gerotor gear set.

I begun to search for parts (gasket kit, lifters, pushrod and piston rings)and i am not very happy with the total amount. The problem is that i cannot find all the parts in one place (and pay one shipping cost). And also comparing prices from twinmotorcycles.nl to US Harley Davidson dealers, i noticed that there is a huge difference. For example, at HD New Castle the price for piston rings is half comparing to twinmotorcycles.nl. The problem is that Harley US dealers will not ship parts outside. So i want to ask here, can someone from US help me with this parts? I am thinking if i can receive all this parts as one package, i will save some money.
Thanks!
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Sagehawk
Posted on Monday, July 18, 2016 - 05:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Are there any harley dealers where you are at? Twin motorcycles is associated with a dealer in canada now , I understand. I'll look through my info and see who that is. Keep the faith !
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Hughlysses
Posted on Monday, July 18, 2016 - 06:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The go-to mail Buell order dealer is now St. Paul HD/Buell.

From American Sport Bike's closure notice:


quote:

We know that Buell motorcycles are both worthy and unique motorcycles and hope that no one abandons the marque because of our demise. We realize that parts support (especially OEM parts support), is key to an enjoyable ownership experience. To that end, OUR OEM parts supplier for many years, St. Paul Harley Davidson & Buell, is ready to pick up the flag and support Buell owners worldwide. Lance Kugler, the parts manager at St. Paul HD/Buell, is himself an avid Bueller and knows the motorcycles and their parts fitment well. He has been actively supporting the marque via Ebay, E-mail, and phone orders for many years. He has assured us that he is ready to supply all the parts that we have provided and more, and will even hire as necessary to keep Buell owners supported. St. Paul doesn’t have an ordering web site at this time, so for the near future, orders will need to be via email and/or phone. St. Paul’s eBay username is 651Lance. Their main line for the phone calls is 651-738-2168. E-mails should go directly to Lance’s email address: lkugler@stpaulhd.com


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Phelan
Posted on Monday, July 18, 2016 - 10:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

That worm looking thing looks like case halves sealant. Wouldnt be the first time this happened. Tootal, the seals you posted are older style seals for 5/16" stem valves. 03-up XB, 04- up Sportster, and 06-up Twin Cam use 7mm stem valves and much better, different valve seals. 06- under had black color viton seals that didn't work great, but 07-up got orange color viton seals that are much better.
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Dan_m
Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2016 - 07:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

@Sagehawk: yes, i have a HD dealer here. I've called them, he told me to send them an email with the parts i need, now i wait for an answer.

@Hughlysses: thanks for the tip!. I have send an email to Lance and now i wait for an answer.

@Reepicheep: can you please give me a part number for the Melling lifters? Thanks!
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651lance
Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2016 - 08:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I haven't received an email as of yet. Please send it to lkugler@stpaulhd.com.
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Reepicheep
Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2016 - 08:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Here is the thread I found on the topic:
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/142 838/724537.html#POST2381642

I did what xbimmer did, and swapped over the end caps. The slight difference in the oil hole diameter was the only difference, and the part is really easy to change over and fits perfectly. It made no difference on my bike, my crank is failing, and that is where the noise was coming from. So I end up being a good test case for these lifters... the old ones I pulled were fine, these new ones that went in were fine also.

I doubt the oil hole difference would matter, but who knows.

I think they were on the shelf at my local Autozone, though maybe they had to order them. They are cool desk art also for the price, neat little device with lots of little machining.
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Dan_m
Posted on Friday, July 29, 2016 - 06:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

For the moment while i wait for the parts (hope to arrive in 2 or 3 weeks) i begun to clean the carbon buildup from cylinder heads, valves and pistons. I am also reading the service manual to be easier for me to reassemble the engine when parts will arrive. Reading the manual, i have some doubts and maybe you can help me clarify:
1. Installing the gear cams: i've read in the manual that when removing the oil pump it is important not to disturb the cams. The problem is that i really had a hard time removing the oil pump and when it finally separated from the crankcase, it also disturbed the cams. All I could notice is that the position of the timing mark from the pinion gear was similar to the one from the picture in the service manual (mark pointing towards the center of front intake cam gear). My question now is: how do i know if i am installing the cams correctly? If i am doing exactly as the picture from the service manual, everything is ok?

picture with the gear cams timing, from service manual:




2. Piston rings end gap: after reading the service manual, it is not very clear to me how to arrange the end gaps from the piston rings. If i will arrange as the picture bellow, i am doing it right?




3. Hydraulic lifters: In the end, i went for the Melling lifters. Apart from swapping the end caps, is there anything that is necessary to do to the lifters, before installing them?

Thanks!
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Reepicheep
Posted on Friday, July 29, 2016 - 08:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

If you have the rocker boxes off anyway, which you must if you are cleaning carbon off pistons, don't worry about disturbing the cams. Just make sure they are back in and timed right before you put the cam cover back on, and do that before you put the rockers back in.

I've always read that lifters should be soaked in oil before installation. No idea if it is an old wives tale or not, but it's easy to do and I just do it instead of researching it. : )
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Teeps
Posted on Friday, July 29, 2016 - 10:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Dan_m Posted on Friday, July 29, 2016 -
2. Piston rings end gap: after reading the service manual, it is not very clear to me how to arrange the end gaps from the piston rings. If i will arrange as the picture bellow, i am doing it right?


Short answer: yes, should be fine.
The rings will rotate around the piston anyway.
In the past I've installed ring sets (70s era Honda/Kawa engines, one piece oil ring) with all the gaps lined up, and nothing bad happened.
http://www.rlengines.com/Web_Pages/pistonrings.html




Reepicheep Posted on Friday, July 29, 2016
I've always read that lifters should be soaked in oil before installation. No idea if it is an old wives tale or not, but it's easy to do and I just do it instead of researching it.


Watching a cable car build show, the host explained why, soaking hydraulic lifters was not a good practice, as it related to engines with adjustable rocker arms. He said you wanted that little bit of spring back easily felt when adjusting the rockers.
However, for our Buell engines, since there is no adjustment, soaking should be fine, if not preferable.

(Message edited by teeps on July 29, 2016)
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Natexlh1000
Posted on Friday, July 29, 2016 - 02:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

About how much can the stockers self-adjust?

The valves will still open if they are dry, right?
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Tootal
Posted on Friday, July 29, 2016 - 02:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

They should be packaged with some lubrication on them. I always soak them just to be sure. Besides, you need to at least lube the outside of them before installing using oil or assembly lube.

They can self adjust roughly up to .100". They are not all created equal.

They will open a little. It takes oil pressure to fill them then as they get pressure from the cam the oil is compressed and will bleed out slowly. It's so slow that it doesn't make any difference. The cam is already around before any measurement is lost.

Swapping the end pieces gives you a larger hole which feeds the push rods which feed the rocker arm bushings. The bigger hole is better for your rockers.
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Dan_m
Posted on Monday, August 01, 2016 - 04:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks for the advices!
About the gear cams, I am trying to understand logically, so maybe someone can explain to me please: so, as long as i set the timing according to te picture above and everything is fine, why for the removal of the same gear cams the service manual specify to rotate the crankshaft and set the timing marks according to same picture above?
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Reepicheep
Posted on Monday, August 01, 2016 - 08:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks Tootal, good info.

Dan, I'm not sure I completely understand your question, but I think this might be the answer...

The position of the crank relative to every cam is what has to be right. That is what you do when you "time the cams". You just line up the gears correctly when the crank is at top dead center.

That way, the opening of the intake valves and the exhaust valves happens at the exact right moment relative to piston position, which is determined by the crank.

"Setting the timing" is normally a reference to another related thing, which is determining when the spark plug will fire relative to the position of the crank and valves. That can be slightly advanced or delayed based on RPM and temperature to eek a little more power, manage heat, or address runnability issues due to carbonization.

So basically what you are doing when timing the cams is just getting the cams, valves, and crank all in the exact right relative positions to each other. Once they are all in place, the gears keep them from ever getting out of sync.

(Message edited by reepicheep on August 01, 2016)
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Dan_m
Posted on Monday, August 01, 2016 - 09:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Reepicheep, thanks for reply!
I will try to explain what are my concerns about timing the cams. Ok, if i understood correctly how a 4 stroke engine works, all four cycles are completed within two full revolutions of the crankshaft (first revolution = intake and compression, second revolution = power stroke and exhaust). So, when installing the cams, i will rotate the crankshaft until the mark from the pinion gear is pointing exactly to the middle of front intake cam bushing (number 2 from picture above), after this i will install the gear cams with the timing marks according to the service manual. Up to here i completely understood and i am sure that valve opening and closing is happening at the right moment relative to piston position.
But since the piston is traveling two times at TDC to complete all four cycles, i'm thinking that the spark happens only once after the compression stroke was completed. So how do i know that i am installing the cams to the correct TDC position?
My biggest concern if that maybe there is the possibility to install the cams 360 degree offset relative to crankshaft position thus the spark will occur after the exhaust stroke was completed. Is this scenario possible?
I hope this time i was clear about my concerns.
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