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Buell Forum » Big, Bad & Dirty (Buell XB12X Ulysses Adventure Board) » Archive through July 20, 2015 » Check Engine Light Upon Take Off » Archive through June 29, 2015 « Previous Next »

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Biffdotorg
Posted on Wednesday, May 06, 2015 - 12:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

A couple times now, I have gotten a CEL right after taking off from work. This is after the bike has sat for 8hrs or so.

Is it possible for the bike to throw a CEL if proper oil pressure is not built up? Or will a Bank Angle Sensor throw a CEL?

When I leave work, I don't take any time to warm the bike enough possibly, and within the first 20ft of start is a hard leaning right hand turn leaving the parking lot. The engine is usually idling very low as I usually have the clutch pulled as I roll down a slight hill to the right out of the parking lot. This is when the CEL has shown up.

I mention idling low as I thought maybe it was a low voltage issue.

It doesn't last, and usually goes away right away. Yesterday, it lasted a block, but went away. Thus the reason for asking.

Any help is appreciated. If there is a way to pull a code or further troubleshoot, that info would be helpful.

Thank you!

(Message edited by biffdotorg on May 06, 2015)
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Arcticktm
Posted on Wednesday, May 06, 2015 - 01:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

If the code was stored, you can flash historic codes by jumping the proper 2 pins of the diagnostic connector and counting the flash pattern on the dash.
I don't recall the exact pins, but you can search for it here. I'm short on time at work, and my SM is at home of course.
I'm assuming you don't have ECM Spy, VDSTS or something else to directly plug in and read the codes.
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Biffdotorg
Posted on Wednesday, May 06, 2015 - 04:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

No, I don't, but I have a service manual. I will do some searching and reading.

Thanks for the response, any others are appreciated.
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Teeps
Posted on Wednesday, May 06, 2015 - 06:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Probably an O2 sensor code.
My '06 has done that on more than one occasion.
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Hughlysses
Posted on Wednesday, May 06, 2015 - 08:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I was going to suggest bad exhaust valve actuator, but that would not occur at idle. Good luck in diagnosing it.
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Pagprivat
Posted on Wednesday, May 06, 2015 - 08:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Here's the pins to short to read the stored CEL codes:

http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show .cgi?tpc=142838&post=2328756#POST2328756
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Biffdotorg
Posted on Thursday, May 07, 2015 - 11:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks for the info guys. I have dug through the service manual as well for other ideas.

I created a wishlist on American Sportbike for all the components needed in case I have to swap out the VR and Stator.

At the same time, I should do the other tip someone had here about backing out the starter and lubricating the shaft as I have had that starter cog stick for the split second that makes that horrible noise in the past.

I also added the appropriate gaskets to my wishlist as well. I would assume I should expect to have to replace the primary gasket, the shift shaft gasket and possibly the two inspection cover gaskets just from normal maintenance.

A voltage meter would probably not be a bad idea to help narrow down if there is an actual VR/Stator issue. My battery seems to be in good shape and not losing a charge. But like others, the engine does hesitate and crank slow upon starting.

More to come...
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Biffdotorg
Posted on Friday, May 15, 2015 - 07:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

So here is what I did.

I ordered one of these LED Voltage meters to plug into my 12v outlet. I figured I could get dual purpose out of it by using it in the boat to monitor my deep cycle battery for the stereo system as well.

$4.75 later and I have a nice voltage meter.

I mounted my GoPro on the handlebar and went for a quick ride. What I found was not real surprising. I was just unsure how much fluctuation was normal.

At idle when cold it was putting out around 12.7-13v. Just above idle cruising through the neighborhood, I was seeing 13.7 to 14.1 and that was duplicated on the highway at 3500-4000 RPM. 13.7 to 14.1.

When I cam back to idle rolling in the driveway with the clutch pulled, it sat just under 13v as I rolled into the garage.

This sounds pretty normal to me. Should I be concerned with the fluctuation or is that pretty standard? I never saw any spikes, and I never saw anything below 11. I will monitor it over the next week when this Freakin RAIN STOPS!!

My guess is that my CEL happened when I rolled out of the office driveway and the engine was cold. It may have dropped below 12v.

Thanks guys!







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Etennuly
Posted on Friday, May 15, 2015 - 09:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

If it is not showing any codes, and you frequently take off with a cold engine, I would think it may be getting a rich exhaust at the o2 sensors. Does it do the same thing if you let it warm up for several minutes before riding?
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Lyonne
Posted on Saturday, May 16, 2015 - 07:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Biffdotorg,

I've got the exact same voltage meter that I picked up when I had a failing stator. 13.7 to 14.1 is what I remember when cruising at speed. It does start lower at low RPM, but I don't think it goes below 12. I'll see how low mine is tomorrow and let you know. The ECM does have a low voltage fault that I was getting when I had a bad stator.
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Sagehawk
Posted on Saturday, May 16, 2015 - 10:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Not to bust a thread, but a note of interest, i datalogged my 07 12 x and to my surprise , it was almost 8 minutes in before that bike hit 180c. Fired it up cold with log allready running. Idled 2 minutes and took off. That sitting for minutes to warm up, seems to be a waste now that i know how long it takes to heat up. By same token, fan shuts off at 170c cooling down. Meaning that you are back on choke and enrichment till motor back at or above 180c. My thoughts are, how does it heat so slow, but cool off so fast? That temp sensor is feeding the info to the ecm for it to do its thing. Perhaps an electronic type bad webber would share about this. For me, an observation at this point and perhaps a thought as to cold running issues back to original thread.
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Reepicheep
Posted on Saturday, May 16, 2015 - 11:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I think it is just a thermistor in the head, which is just a resistor that changes temp (a lot) with temperature. It should track the engine temp dead on, so if it says it's cooling that fast, it must be cooling that fast.
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Biffdotorg
Posted on Sunday, May 17, 2015 - 04:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Never happened when warm and the only reason that thought came to mind is the rolling idle.

Cold idle produced less voltage and rolling out I was at very low idle. I still have to check for a code as that is the piece of info that may be most telling

These readings are telling me my stator and VR should be ok though right? Low voltage may be a sign of stator and wide readings may be VR?

Thanks again guys!
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Lyonne
Posted on Sunday, May 17, 2015 - 05:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I get about 13.4V on initial startup, but within a few seconds it is up near 13.8V. Sitting under 13 volts, even at idle would make me suspect the stator or possible the voltage regulator. When my stator went out, it would still charge at higher RPM, but gradually depleted the battery. I didn't have the voltage monitor at the time, so I am not sure what was going on.
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Biffdotorg
Posted on Tuesday, May 26, 2015 - 01:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Ok I got this CEL to come on after using u new voltage meter. Since plugging it in, I would see voltage at the DC outlet within 5 seconds of startup

When the CEL came on Friday on my way home from work there was no reading at all. I pulled the clutch, killed the engine and restarted. I was running with no CEL and showing voltage before I rolled to the side of the road. So is this more indicative of a stator failing?

I noticed no engine sound or performance change, but did notice an odd smell. And that could have been anything.

(Message edited by biffdotorg on May 26, 2015)
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Natexlh1000
Posted on Tuesday, May 26, 2015 - 08:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

That socket is controlled by the computer so if the computer sees less than a certain amount of voltage, it turns it off.
You may need to temporarily tap into the headlight circuit to verify it.
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Biffdotorg
Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 03:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Should this voltage ever spike up to 15.1v or is that a normal range?

Since putting the meter in the socket, I have never seen below 12.1v, but today I did see as high as 15.1.

This is sounding more like voltage regulator issue. American Sportbike is down right now, otherwise, I would order a new VR.

Are all wires to the VR exposed, or do I need to open up anything to replace the VR? Is dielectric grease recommended on all connections? Just coat the exposed pins before connecting?

Teeps mentioned an O2 sensor as well. Would a dirty air filter set that code off? I can't say I have replaced that, but rather took it out and blew it out with an air hose. That is over due for replacement.

I do have the stock air filter from my '06 12s that was pulled when I installed a K&N. It doesn't have 500 miles on it.

Thanks guys!

(Message edited by biffdotorg on June 17, 2015)
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Natexlh1000
Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 03:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I don't think you should ever see 15V.

My 2008 VR replacement was pretty easy.
The only oddity I came away with was finding a sad tiny dead bird wedged up under stuff.
Looked the same as the little birds (2!) I pried out of my front wheel in SC.
Must have been a cloud of them I drove through.
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Froggy
Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 03:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

It should be holding around 14.2V, typically dropping a little at idle especially with fan and other electric goodies going. 15V is a sign that the regulator is not correctly regulating, it will slowly get worse till you start blowing headlight bulbs or worse.
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Uly_man
Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 03:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"Meaning that you are back on choke and enrichment till motor back at or above 180c". No incorrect.

"You may need to temporarily tap into the headlight circuit to verify it". No incorrect. It needs to be done across the battery terminals. Which should be about 14.2v at idle or any revs, it can peak to 15.1v but is fine as long as it is just a peak. This is normal and via the diagnostic port which is the ONLY proven numbers. Anything else will introduce wiring resistance numbers and cause a confused issue.

PS - That device is crap. Get one that will give you better data.

(Message edited by uly_man on June 17, 2015)
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Biffdotorg
Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 04:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Since my last post, I did do some searching on Badweb for others that have replaced the VR.

One used a logger, and actually showed ranges from 7v to 17v spikes before his VR failed. Upon install of the new VR it cleaned it up to 13-15v consistently.

So in actuality, my crappy Volt meter is pretty accurate. And probably more than the LED's on a Kureaken since it reads in actual volts down to 1/10v. That's easier to read than red/yellow/green. The only issue would be it would not read dips below 12 as other noted, as the ECU would shut off that circuit. Low voltage would be more of a bad stator indication from what I am hearing.

Thanks for the advice, I won't turn away any of it, and take it all into consideration.
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Smorris
Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 05:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

i have a question === what is your voltage, at that meter in the accessory plug when key is on and kill switch is to run but not yet thumbing the start button. thanks
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Biffdotorg
Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 08:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Good question. No voltage without the engine running. It would be good to see it wired to the battery circuit like mentioned to see how it fluctuates during and right away after start.

The ECM does not light up the circuit till the engine is up and running
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Biffdotorg
Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 09:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Well, found the diagnostic port, and with your excellent instructions, I pulled a code 16. So this is a Battery Voltage situation.

So it could be a combination of things then. And from what we talked about: Stator, Voltage Regulator, or battery or all of the above.

The the wacky fluctuations, VR is top of my list, and easiest to swap. Although priciest to replace. I guess it will be first on my list of things to swap once American Sportbike is back online this week.

Thanks guys
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Biffdotorg
Posted on Tuesday, June 23, 2015 - 11:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

While narrowing down the list and of course pulling the codes, I did some routine maintenance.

Adjusted/tightened the primary chain, and replaced the air filter.

Sometimes a person just needs one of those slaps to the head to remind them the difference the little things make.

This thing is shifting smoother from the primary adjustment. But the throttle response change from a new filter is over the top. As expensive as the stock filter is, a replacement is worth every penny. Blowing it out does not do it justice.

So, as a reminder, don't wait for issues to do the regular maintenance stuff.
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Biffdotorg
Posted on Friday, June 26, 2015 - 11:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Early this week I finally got a voltage reading less then 12v just before the ECM shut the circuit down and threw a CEL. I saw 11.3v just before the CEL.

I pulled the clutch, hit the kill switch and restarted it while rolling. Started right back up, full voltage and no CEL.

I do have a VR on order from Al at American Sportbike. Should I have ordered a Stator at the same time with the appropriate gaskets and primary lock-tool? Or just start with the VR and see if the CEL's go away?

Thanks guys
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Froggy
Posted on Friday, June 26, 2015 - 11:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Biff, the only way to know for sure if your stator is fine is to disconnect it and test its AC voltage output with a multimeter, as fluctuating battery voltage can be a number of things, but in this case I believe it is a VR issue, and only the VR.
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Trevd
Posted on Monday, June 29, 2015 - 03:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Do stators have a habit of being an intermittent problem?

Or if a stator is bad, is it more that it just keeps being bad, with no spells of happiness mixed in?
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Biffdotorg
Posted on Monday, June 29, 2015 - 10:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I think that was part of why Froggy was pretty confident in that this is a VR problem. I think we would be losing our battery charge if the stator was bad.

Just to be sure, I put the charger on my battery tonight to be sure it's not a battery issue as well. But I think I am driving my wifes bike to work tomorrow until my VR comes in. My bike took three restarts this morning, and this afternoon after work to clear the CEL and light up the 12v port on the dash again.

We will see.
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Trevd
Posted on Monday, June 29, 2015 - 10:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

It's weird, because most of what I've read in the past couple of days says that when a VR craps out, it sends higher voltage to the battery, potentially frying the battery.

In both our cases, it seems like there is less voltage being sent to the battery.

But maybe it has something to do with the Uly in particular... I don't know.
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