| Author | Message | ||
     Hughlysses |
I'm in the mountains of North Georgia at Glitch Badness. When I pulled in to park this afternoon after riding most of the day, as the Uly sat idling with the fan running I saw my aftermarket voltage indicator go yellow (12V) then red (<12V) which is not normal. I revved the engine a little and it went to yellow. Shut it down, let the fan cycle, waited a few minutes and the re-started it. Light went to yellow at idle, I had to bump idle to about 1500 for it to go green but then it stayed green at idle. My first thought was bad stator, so I pulled the chain inspection cover on the primary and did a sniff test. No foul odors so the stator is OK, which means either my VR is going or this was a fluke. I have a 300 mile ride home tomorrow, so I'm sweating this. Opinions? If it is a bad VR, will the Sportster VR work? This is an 09 engine with the single phase stator. Any idea how long a VR will take to die completely? Thanks in advance. | ||
| Froggy |
My 08 did the same when the VR was failing. I rode it a billion miles like that including to Buelltoberfest a few years ago. I replaced it when it started happening frequently. | ||
| Ourdee |
a billion miles Really?  | ||
| Ourdee |
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SHINDENGEN-MOSFET-FH020AA- REGULATOR-RECTIFIER-KIT-REPLACES-FH012AA-/38070448 0069 This one will work. May find it cheaper. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Froggy- Man, thanks for that. Hopefully I can make it home tomorrow without an issue. If heat contributes to the problem, the water cooling tomorrow should at least help with that. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Well, I made it back home today after a 300 mile ride in constant rain and the voltage indicator stayed green the whole time. Weird, but good. I may go ahead and get one of the MOSFET VR's just to have on hand; thanks for the link. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Huge, I've got the Mosfet on both mine and son's ULYs. No problem so far at all. The bracket to hold the Mosfet need only be a pair of standoff bolts through the frame piece where you take off the OEM regulator. You've had your entire bike apart so it should be a breeze for you. If you get the Mosfet and have a question about the standoff bolts, just ask. | ||
| Hughlysses |
I had another intermittent red light on the voltage indicator yesterday on my commute home from work. Outside temperature was around 80 deg. F as I rolled up to a stoplight after ~10 miles of 65 MPH running. The fan was on high, and when the engine dropped to idle speed, the light went yellow, then red. I revved the engine a little, it went back green, then the fan cut off, so the charging light stayed green. I suspect like Froggy I could ride this for a long time this way, but I'll probably order a MOS-FET regulator kit this weekend and install it the first chance I get. | ||
| Hughlysses |
...and the speedometer quit working on the way to work this morning. I'm hoping speed sensor is bad; I have a spare for that. [Edit- No, I don't. I saved the sensor out of my 07 engine but there's a different part listed for the 08 engine.] Come on, AX!!! (Message edited by Hughlysses on April 01, 2015) | ||
| Reepicheep |
Hugh... http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/3842/758417.html?1427926471 Email me a shippping address if you want me to pack this up and ship it to you tomorrow. If you aren't in a hurry, wait, it will keep getting more and more features.   | ||
| Hughlysses |
Bill- Cool! I'd love to have one, but I'm not in a hurry. Let me know when it's perfected! I think I've identified a pattern in my VR behavior. I get a low voltage indication after an extended high speed run. It's like the VR is getting over-worked having to shunt excess current to ground. I got a low voltage indication as I stopped at a gas station after an interstate run this afternoon. I got back on it, everything was OK for a while, then it went yellow at idle, fan came on as I was pulling off, when I came to the next stop, fan still on, but no low voltage indication. I'm thinking the load of the fan lowered the load on the VR, allowing it to cool down and start to regulate properly again. I guess MOS-FET VR mod is next on my list. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Now I know what the term MOSFET is all about even though I've got it on my and me boy's Uly's. https://www.google.com/search?q=mosfet&oq=mosfet&a qs=chrome..69i57j69i65.3615j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es _sm=122&ie=UTF-8 | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Hugh, If you haven't done this already then you need to run your VR/R and stator checks using the methods described in these videos.http://www.roadstercycle.com/Roadstercycle.com%20V ideos.htm | ||
| Hughlysses |
Craig- The main thing I remember about the "FET" part of MOS-FET is that a field effect transistor works more like a vacuum tube. Conventional transistors control current, while tubes and FET's control voltage. That was considered a benefit in audio amplifiers. Yea, I should do the checks before I start throwing parts at it. I did notice on a recent Twin Cycles post on Facebook that they say the 08-up VR's are very hard to bench test. As a result, they keep a spare VR on hand to swap out and do a running check using it when a bad VR is suspected. Side note- Twin Cycles posts a set of photos showing the servicing of one or more Buells in their shop in the Netherlands several times a week. You can get a lot of helpful information from looking through the photos. They usually post a link on the XB board if you're not a FB user. (Message edited by Hughlysses on April 02, 2015) | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
My 2008 regulator got weak but didn't crap out all the way. I wouldn't even have known without my kuryakin meter thing. I always had two green LEDs lit until one day on a long trip, I noticed only one green LED. At idle, it would go to yellow if I was running the aux lights or if the fan was running. I just replaced mine with stock since it was easy. | ||
| Reepicheep |
The MOSFET thing is a bit of a red herring, and a bit relevant too. MOSFETS are awesome, don't get me wrong, it makes my heater controller possible. Basically the thing that limits how much power an electronic valve can transfer is not how much power is going through it, it is how much power is being "lost" to the gate as it flows through it. The package itself can only handle so much internal heat before it fries. Here is the funny thing about electronics... It helps me understand the horsepower versus torque thing that most gearheads get wrong. Power is current (amps) times resistance (ohms). From that you can derive some other equations for it, (Volts * Volts) / Ohms, Amps time Amps times Ohms. But that lets you game the math (and it works). So you can have a million amps going though a wire if there is no resistance in that wire, because there is no power coming off the wire. In the Amps times Amps times Resistance, you are multiplying by a zero, and the wire dissipates no power (and no heat). It just transfers it. Only a "superconductor" would have zero ohms, but less ohms is better and the more power it can transfer before it gets too hot and melts. So if your "current valve" has no resistance when turned "open", you can flow pretty much infinite power through it. The same if you switch the valve completely closed. The volts can go very high, but with zero current flow, the power from the valve is still zero (volts times amps, where amps is zero). A normal silicone diode (PN junction), silicone controlled rectifier or transistor (NPN junction) drops about .6 volts for every PN junction, even when flowing current forward. So they can never get to that magic "completely on" phase. A transistor the size if your thumbnail with a heatsink (which is a big one), can maybe on a good day, dissipate 50 watts. So given you are stuck with two .6 volt forward drops, that is 1.2 volts. So doing the math, 50W = Xamps * 1.2V, or 40 amps before the transistor must become molten slag. Now a MOSFET works differently. When a MOSFET is completely turned "on" and driven to saturation, the forward voltage drop is getting VERY close to zero. So it can handle a HUGE amount of current before it melts. A small (TO220) MOSFET for my heated grip controller can handle 80 amps easily when turned completely on. It drives two polly cartridge heaters (15 watts each?) with no heatsink and isn't even warm to the touch. So completely on or completely off, a MOSFET can handle an insane amount of power, much more than a rectifier or transistor or silicone controlled rectifier. Now if you try and turn a MOSFET "half on" and have it half flow the current, but half throttle it, it will suddenly have the same problem everything else has, and it will go up in a little puff of smoke. So the trick becomes to design your circuits so they operate with the MOSFET turned completely on, or completely off, and switched instantly. It sounds like a pretty extreme limitation, and I suppose it is, but you can actually do a lot within those constraints... for example instead of running the MOSFET half on, you run the MOSFET all on then all off with a 50% duty cycle. This is called pulse width modulation, and you manage the percentage of power delivered by managing the percentage of "on time" versus "off time". | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
I^2*R = Power Print this out and tape it everywhere:  | ||
| Kag |
Just did a MOSFET and on the test ride (70 miles) it performed as advertised. Then the rear bearing went very suddenly....  | ||
| Twisteduly |
Hughlysses-"I think I've identified a pattern in my VR behavior. I get a low voltage indication after an extended high speed run. It's like the VR is getting over-worked having to shunt excess current to ground. I got a low voltage indication as I stopped at a gas station after an interstate run this afternoon. I got back on it, everything was OK for a while, then it went yellow at idle, fan came on as I was pulling off, when I came to the next stop, fan still on, but no low voltage indication. I'm thinking the load of the fan lowered the load on the VR, allowing it to cool down and start to regulate properly again." It appears I'm getting a pattern also... Spirited riding with near max rpm shifts, idiot light came on, still running good, stopped for gas and wouldnt restart, dead battery symptoms. Got a jump and made it almost 10 miles before it started cutting out and running like crap, died and coasted to the shoulder and pushed it home (1/4 mile). I put a meter on the battery and it was 11.3vdc. It went up to 11.6 after a few minutes and also removing the ground cable. The battery was new last fall (HD) so I charged it up. 12.8vdc I fired it up and was getting 14.2 at idle/cold idle. Ran for 5 minutes and shut it down. I put it on the battery tender for a couple of days. Today, I fired it up and all was good. Went on a test ride (20+ mile loop) of not going over 4k rpms and it was fine and made it home I'll post up anything I find or try that's relevant. I'm not going to throw parts at it, but my gut is saying the VR is the culprit. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Mine is still working OK ~2 months after the original issue. In fact, since the outside temperature has risen and the fan is more likely to kick on during an interstate ride, I haven't seen a low voltage indication in a couple of months. I'm sure it'll wait to act up again at the least convenient time. I need to go ahead an order a replacement. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Do the 08's still have the "77" connector between the stator and voltage regulator? If so, check that first. It might just be overheating and opening up. | ||
| Froggy |
They technically have the connector, but it is totally different than either version of the 77 connector on the older bikes. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Nope, no "77" connector, at least not the same style connector or location. The 08-up's have two each two pin connectors on the left side of the engine above the primary. One connects to battery and the other connects to single phase stator. I got a close look at a proper 08 bike last year and the left side scoop actually has a flange added to the bottom (running front-to-back) that hides the wires. Bill- you just got me to thinking: I don't think I've had a low-voltage indication since I disassembled the connectors on my bike to check the stator. While the pins on both mine looked fine, maybe I did have a marginal connection in one. They're certainly worth checking on Joe's bike. | ||
| Ourdee |
The indication I had for my bad VR was the blowing of headlight bulbs at random times up to a year apart. Last straw for me was popping both bulbs in the rain after dark with 30 miles to go. I had an analog voltage gage on the handle bars so I could see what was going on. | ||
| Griffmeister |
"Do the 08's still have the "77" connector between the stator and voltage regulator?" All XB's for all years have a "77" connector. Because of the numerous problems and updates in this one terminal it has taken on a certain magical status. To clarify things, 77 is not a brand, style, size or any other similar identifier. It is merely a number assigned to a specific connection on the wiring schematic. 77 is the connector between the VR and the battery. 46 is the connector between the VR and the stator. 33 connects the ignition switch, 128 the starter, 170 the front brake switch, 39 the instrument cluster, etc. They're reference numbers and nothing more. All that aside, my first VR blew the headlight then went completely dead. My second one decided it wanted to keep charging but still liked blowing the headlights at a depressing rate. Number three has been good so far. If at some point it decides to get ugly I think I'll change it to the Shindengen. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Same thing with scuba air regulators, there are (well, were 20 years ago when I got certified) two major types, a "J" valve and a "K" valve. Back in the dark ages, before Amazon, the letters corresponded to the way they appeared on the Sears catalog page where they were sold. There were pictures of all the different stuff for sale on a page, with little letters beside them, then a legend somewhere on the page with a list of each letter, descriptions, and prices. | ||
| Twisteduly |
I've only had the bike for a month, but I did ask if the prev owner ever had problems blowing headlights and was told not at all. From the receipts that came with it, it looks like every 2-3 years a new battery was purchased. I have been reading through post on this topic - the 77 connector, headlights etc. and am trying to find if they have primarily occurred on the 3 phase bikes, on the later single phase stators or both. (different regulators and connectors) What I am thinking is when in the upper rpms on the spirited ride, the voltage went high and an internal circuit of the VR opened up and subsequently caused the low battery condition and after several hours of cool down while on the charger it returned to normal. But reading what has been posted about the 77 has me scratching my head thinking, so it will be checked out asap. Trying to come up with a way to hook up my meter and plug it in the accessory port with out sacrificing a set of leads, my fluke accessory kit has decided to hide. | ||
| Reepicheep |
The regulator works opposite of how most people would expect... It is a shunt regulator. So if it "breaks" the voltage generally goes high, not low. (It could fail to shorted I suppose, but that would be a lot of current through it, which would be a lot of heat, so I suspect even if it failed to a short initially it would fail worse to an open not long thereafter) For what that's worth... | ||
| Twisteduly |
And that is what has me scratching my head, lol, intermittent issues are a pain | ||
| Twisteduly |
Update - I checked out the 46 & 77 connections behind the air scoop, they looked ok, cleaned both male and female sockets for each and dieletric greased them, also did the same for the 2 wire connection that is right behind the oil cooler mount while I was there. Under the seat I lifted out the fuse block and cleaned up the grounds. Hooked the battery back up and went for a test ride. Revved her this time and all stayed good. Tomorrow I plan on putting some miles in, I need the confidence before planning a trip. |
