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Archive through June 02, 2015Smorris30 06-02-15  11:19 pm
         

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Tootal
Posted on Wednesday, June 03, 2015 - 02:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

If they charged you to reflash an 06 for the comfort kit then you got screwed! That reflash was for 08's and up. 06 and 07 models are different. My guess is you have a stock ecm and a new stock one will work just as well.
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Arcticktm
Posted on Wednesday, June 03, 2015 - 04:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Smorris, you would need ECMSpy or Tunerpro to upload a new calibration into the proper type of ECM if it did not already have the right one.
I was able to buy a used ECM on ebay for a good price. It already happened to be for an XB12 series, and my vintage ('06), but I was prepared to use ECMSpy to transfer my stock ECM calibration if needed.

If you bite the bullet and buy an ECM from a dealer, it damn well better include the proper calibration at that price! Not sure if it ships like that or if they have to do it at dealer though.

Not sure what your reflash was about either. I installed my comfort kit and never reflashed. I thought the same as Tootal that it was an '08+ thing for the fan control logic only.

If your ECM works fine, but the crack worries you for the future (with good reason), start searching for a used one. All XB12's are the same for a given year (X, XT, Lightning, etc). Search around here and you can also find what range of years will work for our '06's without a calibration change. Don't recall the answer from memory right now, so i don't want to give you bad info.
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Arcticktm
Posted on Wednesday, June 03, 2015 - 04:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.spreadsheetml.sheet'06 XB12 stock calibration
Buell_Map_OEM_stock.xlsx (189.7 k)

Not use to attachments here, but here is my attempt to post my Excel version of my stock timing and fuel maps for both cylinders.
I could not fugure out how to export from ECMSpy, so I just made my own spreadsheet to play around with.
No time to explain it now, but if anyone cares let me know here or PM and I'll try to explain when I have more time.
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Arcticktm
Posted on Wednesday, June 03, 2015 - 04:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)


Timing


OK, that somehow made it a zip file, perhaps file was above a limit.
Here is screenshot of timing tables stock:
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Arcticktm
Posted on Wednesday, June 03, 2015 - 04:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)


Fuel

And here are the Fuel maps front/rear.
Again, this is stock calibration, not my EBR.
Red box area I put in to help me focus on the area where I seem to have pinging issues, and not waste time in the areas that work just fine. the gray columns are not in the calibration, but I added them and setup the values by interpolation so that I could direclty compare timing and fuel points more easily.
My color coding was just to help visualize how the rear cylinder is different than the front.
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Uly_man
Posted on Thursday, June 04, 2015 - 09:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"Im not up to speed with much of this but if an new oem ECM is purchased: is it blank?". The new HD ECM I bought for my 10 bike stated on the box that it was BLANK and it would not work until I flashed it with the data from the original bikes ECM. I do not know how others may come.

The FULL "comfort kit" adds extra parts IE Ducting etc to allow for better air circulation over the rear cylinder head. The "re-flash" of the ECM is to make, in part, the fan run while moving which makes this kit work because there is not enough air movement with the original design. Without the fan flash I would think that there is little point in fitting the comfort kit which does, in fact, work very well. You will still get heat from the headers but that is the nature of the bike but the kits pipe heat shield helps as would wrapping them if you wanted to. It works very well but does not look very good.

If you have a 06 bike I would say, as an experiment, to unplug the fan and wire it to stay ON, you can take the battery Negative lead OFF if stopping for any length of time, and then go for a ride to see if it helps any. If it does then all you need to do is fit a "in-line" relay and an adjustable electronic thermostat (as used with electric radiator fans in cars) to control the fan. This would need a little time to setup as it would not be working the same way as the later bikes do which is just ON/ OFF at a set speed.

I see no reason why this would not work as long as the "by pass" always reverts to a "closed" position on the relay to allow normal ECM control of the fan. Should not cost much either.

This is what I would be looking to do if I still had my 06 bike and know some others here have looked at in the past. Well worth doing I think.
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Smorris
Posted on Thursday, June 04, 2015 - 02:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

i did check with HD dealer and ecm does not come pre programmed. and also told it has to be in the bike to program.
i did have the FULL comfort kit installed so i believe, PN M1907.1ak.
this was done when the fan failed and yes i was charged to install "EMR"(?), found note that says

" Although not required, to maximize the benefit from the rider comfort kit, a new electronic fuel injection calibration is available for installation. see your local dealer for detailed instructions. Note: the new calibration uses a combined vehicle speed and engine temperature based strategy to optimize the cooling effects of the motorcycle's fan while minimizing the fan's run time."

it seemed to reduce pinging upon acceleration as well.

they charged, in 2011, $40 for the reflash
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Froggy
Posted on Thursday, June 04, 2015 - 02:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Your ECM calibration was likely updated, but the revised fan programming that the 2010 bikes have does not work on the 2003-07 bikes
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Jesse_lackman
Posted on Thursday, June 04, 2015 - 05:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Those timing maps are interesting - based on experience tuning American V-8 engines on my engine dyno.

What really stands out is the lack of ignition advance in the idle/low RPM range. That makes absolutely no sense to me. It's like Chrysler in the dog/smog years - with initial/low RPM advance set up around -5 to +5. That makes off-the-line performance real crappy.

One of the secrets of good off-the-line performance with street performance V-8s is to run initial advance as high as you can without the engine kicking back against the starter when starting. For street performance V-8 engines that is in the +15-20 degree range.

The Thunderstorm is basically two American V-8 cylinders - there is no reason they couldn't be tuned just like an American V-8.

I have a 2010 X, with an EBR ECM. If that timing map is similar to what is in my ECM I better get whatever I need to do some ignition tuning!
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Jesse_lackman
Posted on Thursday, June 04, 2015 - 05:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I would say the timing step to 35 @ 3000 and 43 @ 4000 in the 0-24% throttle position range is pretty aggressive. (I'm assuming the percentage is throttle position.) If there is a pinging issue in the red box area that is what I would change. I'd make timing changes first, not fueling changes.

Tight quench clearance makes a difference in how an engine can be timed. I'm not sure what the stock Thunderstorm quench clearance is. I see from Phelan's big Uly build the heads have dual quench pads. Don't know what the pistons look like. I've read about people setting up tight quench on these engines. Tight quench is good!

One thing to note is retarded timing increases EGTs. It's not only fueling that affects EGTs.

(Message edited by jesse_lackman on June 04, 2015)

(Message edited by jesse_lackman on June 04, 2015)
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Jesse_lackman
Posted on Thursday, June 04, 2015 - 06:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

My son just sent the timing map for his '14 RC8.

The Buell map looks pretty crude in comparison, there is nothing like the solid blocks of 35 and 43 and nothing like the 9 change between 24%@4000 and 39%@4000. The timing changes between throttle positions and RPMs are much more linear on the RC8 map.

3000-4500 is the light throttle cruise RPM range. Pushing the advance in the light throttle cruise RPM range is how to make good MPG. So you want the advance in that range to be as much as possible - but not to the point of pinging.

I think 43@24%/4000RPM and 40@31%/4000RPM is a LOT of advance.

The aggressive advance in the 3000-4500 and 12%-31% range would be the first thing I would change. I would make it linear something like this for 4000 RPM;

39%- 32
31%- 34
24%- 36
20%- 36
18%- 38
16%- 40
12%- 42
8% - 43

(Message edited by jesse_lackman on June 04, 2015)

(Message edited by jesse_lackman on June 04, 2015)
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Uly_man
Posted on Friday, June 05, 2015 - 07:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Nope just can not be bothered anymore. Best of luck Guys.
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Sagehawk
Posted on Saturday, June 06, 2015 - 11:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I have wondered about timing all over the place on my 07 uly maps. I would really like to talk to the person who designed all of it to understand the principles of why a field would be so different compared to surrounding fields. Ive never pinged till i tried a more linear approach as suggested andthe bike didnt really run better. Beauty of ecmspy is that didnt work so just reload earlier maps to eeset baseline and think about it. I keep a log for all my tuning which makes it easy to go back. Along same lines, i borrowed a obd2 scanner that would show live data. Mazda b2500 and nitro 3.7 l showed the same type of timing arrangement at various speeds and engine loads. Its just not the same as old days with linear advance now that tps is matched to rpm with other sensors involved. Im still learning tho.
In closing, read a article some time back. A fellow had cracked codes on yamaha ecms and was providing flashes for those bikes. Tables were posted in magazine of the maps on a mule bike. The increments were a lot smaller for tps and the rpm's were only 200 apart. Much tighter control. Yeah, ddfi2 is pretty crude by comparison.
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Cyclonedon
Posted on Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 12:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Does anybody know where I can get a Buell (race kit) ecm? I think mine quit working yesterday! I had to have my bike towed to the dealer. Also if I put the factory stock ecm back on my bike with the race exhaust, will it even run at all?
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Uly_man
Posted on Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 11:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"Im still learning tho". As am I. Until you really start getting into the subject it is hard to realize how truly complicated it is. In fact it is MIND BENDING complicated and while the math is one thing there is also something of an "art" in getting it right on a bike.

Those "numbers" in the maps are just a "base line" and are effected by many other things. For instance, and this is from a 10 bikes log, a cold start (air 16C/ oil 43C and idle UP at 1500rpm) the timing is 8 degrees. This drops to 1.5 degrees at a 1100rpm idle once the engine gets to its min run temp. Which is about 80C and the O2 starts to work at about 100C. The road speed on/ off fan logic only come in once the engine gets to a certain temp as well. This is just basic stuff but you WILL NOT KNOW it without a log to examine what is happening in REAL TIME.

They must have had FI on bikes for 20 plus years now but you still get new models were they have not got it quite right yet. Buell, in my opinion, is not one of them though since I have never had ANY problems due to the ECM programming. The 06 bike was ok but the 10 bike is just superb. Good luck.
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Zac4mac
Posted on Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 12:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Jesse - thanks for your insight on timing.
I'm very old-school, so when my 1125's primaries were glowing orange at idle, I dropped idle timing from +17 to +5.5.
Sure enough, the idle smoothed out and the headers quit glowing.

The key I was missing was "good off-the-line performance" which, since I left timing advanced above 2200rpm, never became an issue.

Zack
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Jesse_lackman
Posted on Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 02:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

All I know is 40@4000 and 31% throttle is a LOT of advance for a higher compression American V-8 type cylinder.

Traditional V-8 timing curves include three components;

1) Initial advance. This is what the engine runs during startup and idle.

2) Total advance. This is the total of the initial advance, and the amount of advance the centrifugal advance weights add. Total advance usually runs in the 30-38 range.

3) Vacuum advance. This is the advance added on top of the total by the vacuum advance system. It is the advance that takes the timing over the total advance. It's an advance that is in play at low load/cruise RPM range. It follows the part throttle position by referencing manifold vacuum; more cruise throttle/less advance, less cruise throttle/more advance.

Most V-8 race ignition systems do not use any type of vacuum or cruise advance. Once total is all in,(usually around 3000-3500 RPM) that's where it stays.

If the quench clearance is right, and the chamber is modern and efficient, the timing advance can be amazingly low. I tested an SBC that ended up at 22 total advance, in by 3000 RPM or so. We started with 32 or so total and backed the advance out by 2 at a time until we lost power. That didn't happen until we hit 20 total advance! Without any type of cruise or vacuum advance the most advance that engine ever sees is 22.

I haven't worked with EFI ignition systems, I'm not really qualified to comment too much on them. The principles of ignition tuning would be basically the same though.

(Message edited by Jesse_Lackman on June 07, 2015)

(Message edited by jesse_lackman on June 07, 2015)
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Ourdee
Posted on Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 04:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I keep re-typing this post. I'm trying not to get too heavy. My mind zooms off on tangents here. So, we have old school points and carbs. Now we have EFI, ECM, Dyno magic type logging and the ability to change any parameter earlier controlled by a centrifugal or vacuum. Now we can throw in O2 measurements, temperatures of air and mechanicals, barometric pressure, and throttle position. May be that those old school curves and lines of control on limited inputs were only an average of give and take that worked most of the time.(compromise) May be now the best mixes of inputs are something that appears helter skelter when looked at in 3d but gloriously smooth when seen in 6 or 7 dimensions. Or I could be off my rocker and the whole picture is a cluster of new fangled compromise because we still haven't arrived at the ability to see and control all the parameters.
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Ourdee
Posted on Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 04:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I just want to squirt in a little extra fuel when I open the throttle fast.
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Ourdee
Posted on Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 04:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I could hook up an old accelerator pump to my throttle linkage without having to learn any of this stuff.



(just a squirt mind you)

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Sagehawk
Posted on Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 10:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Ourdee: would that be the same as a coleman stove funnel , a rubber hose to that carbon canister port on throttle body. when you want a little extra, just pour a jigger of hi grade moon shine in. Damn, I wondered what that port has been for all this time!
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Ourdee
Posted on Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 11:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

That port has some kind of obstruction....Ah crud, how would I know that?
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Arcticktm
Posted on Friday, June 12, 2015 - 05:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Now that I've also reviewed my "stock" EBR maps, I am surprised to find that at lower RPM (2400, 2900 columns) the fueling is actually reduced from the OEM cal.
Timing is exactly the same at 2000rpm, but is advanced some at 3000rpm at 31% throttle and above.
Comparing the rest is a mish-mash.
Generally, the EBR is advanced above 31% in the 3000-5500rpm range I am most looking at. Anywhere from 1-5 degrees. Similar changes front and rear cylinder.

Most surprising was the reduced fuel in places with EBR, and the "jumpiness" of the values, compared to what I was used to in the 90's.
Anyway, will keep thinking about it and see what I may decide to try.
One concern is that ECMSpy is only letting me see a portion of what ECM can do (mentioned by Ulyman above). I can't see or edit all of the modify tables that can adjust timing/fuel with it.
Without the ambition to learn Tunerpro, we will see. No hurry.

Ulyman - if you were referring to my info, it is from an '06, not a '10 bike.
If the "can't be bothered" was directed at my efforts, please know I was not looking for you to tell me how to proceed or give me the answers. I never asked for you to be bothered at all.
Just sharing my process in case others find any interest in it or want to engage. No big deal either way.
Maybe I mis-read though, as internet doesn't transmit intent very well.
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Uly_man
Posted on Friday, June 12, 2015 - 07:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

No it was not directed at you Arcticktm. In fact you seem to have a fair idea of what is going on with the system.
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Ourdee
Posted on Friday, June 12, 2015 - 08:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Probably me. I feel clueless at times. I need to get another computer to dedicate to the bike.
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Uly_man
Posted on Friday, June 12, 2015 - 08:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

TABLE: Map 3D: 2nd Fuel Map Rear

Load (8-bit) RPM
8000 7000 6000 5000 4000 3400 2900 2400 1900 1350 1000 800
255 230 234 241 229 220 225 255 240 185 175 170 160
175 210 215 220 200 216 216 250 235 185 175 170 160
125 160 160 165 190 195 200 220 225 185 175 170 160
100 130 120 145 160 165 189 190 225 185 175 170 160 Fuel
80 100 110 115 128 147 159 166 185 190 175 170 160
60 75 82 87 92 115 120 129 150 166 175 170 160
40 40 40 45 53 68 75 80 90 107 130 135 135
20 24 24 25 26 29 33 35 44 50 63 84 90

This is from a 10 bikes ECM, using TunerPro, exported in TXT. The 3D part
would be the fueling which are the box numbers. With TunerPro you can do so
much and get so much information it is hard to believe and way to much for
me to list here. It really IS a window on the bikes ECM and engine systems.

All I know is that I wished I had known about it when I had my 06 bike. It
did in fact help me spot the problems with my 10 bike IE Faulty BAS, IAT, etc.
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Jesse_lackman
Posted on Friday, June 12, 2015 - 09:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Will tunerpro read a 2010 EBR ECM?
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Uly_man
Posted on Sunday, June 14, 2015 - 12:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I should think so but I have never tried.

Jesse, as a matter of interest, what is it that you think needs doing with the EBR ECM. I have the same bike (Euro headers, no cat, K&N air filter, breather mod and Stealth SS can) and it runs perfect. I can not fault it. It will even accelerate up hill in 5th gear from 30 mph, although that is "pushing" the limit, with no issues IE Judder, vibration, over hot engine, etc. The bike just "wafts along" on a bed of seamless torque.
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Jesse_lackman
Posted on Sunday, June 14, 2015 - 12:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

My 2010 X is practically flawless with the XB9 primary, EBR ECM, and new plug wires.

It's so good I can't believe it's got a timing table like the one posted above.

It's a curiosity thing. It's not broke but I might want to fix it anyway.
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Uly_man
Posted on Sunday, June 14, 2015 - 12:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"It's so good I can't believe it's got a timing table like the one posted above". That is because it is, sort of, not.
That one is the 2nd (2D) map but it also has another map which is NOT the same and has a much broader
map (3D) of fuel, rpm and load numbers. This seems to be mostly in the mid load/ rev range.



"My 2010 X is practically flawless". What is it doing wrong?

(Message edited by uly_man on June 14, 2015)

(Message edited by uly_man on June 14, 2015)
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Jesse_lackman
Posted on Sunday, June 14, 2015 - 02:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

It's doing nothing wrong.
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Arcticktm
Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 01:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

OK Uly_man, now you threw me for a small loop!
In my vocabulary, what I posted above (my crude Excel version) are in fact 3D maps, as it has 3 variables (% throttle, RPM, timing or fuel).
In fact viewing them as a 3D plot is the easiest way for me to see the relative changes.
How is that different than what you posted above? It looks exactly the same to me.
Maybe I am misinterpreting your comment?

I'm intrigued by the combo of yours and Vern's comments on the other pinging thread with regards to fan control.
Not sure if I am intrigued enough to learn TunerPro, though, as I don't think I can change the fan controls with my ECMSpy.
I could also do it the manual way like Vern did, of course.
You are pretty right on with your temps on the other thread. My issue doesn't show up until engine temp reads 195-200C or above. By then, air temp sensor is also reading about 20C above ambient temp as well. Add in the frame becoming a fuel heater, and there is a lot of potential for thermal troubles, especially in that poor old rear cylinder...
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Uly_man
Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 02:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hi. The 06 bike has the same map as the 10 bike but the 10 bike also has a second map that is much broader IE More cells and mostly in that 3-400 rpm mid load range.

I have never had any pinging problems with either bike. I did however find a problem with my IAT sensor on the 10 bike as it was reading 30 C above ambient. I changed it out but also insulated the wires right up to the air box base as I found high heat transfer to the IAT pins. I used a surface temp probe to test these and they were 50C?

I have just run a 10 bikes log and it was, from cold, air 15C/ engine 21C and after a run air 21C/ engine 210C max. The fan came on at about 160C engine and the air remained stable at 21C all the time.

TunerPro is easy enough. Download it (the std version not RT) with the Buell plug-in DDl file in the same dir. Then add the .XDF and .ADX files for your ECM from ECM-SPY site. Switch on TunerPro and download your ECMs BIN (SAVE THIS) file and your done. A XDL is the log file. The only hard part is to setup the dial face if you want it.
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Uly_man
Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2015 - 02:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Question for Arcitictkm? Does you engine run VERY HOT IE So hot you can hardly get close to it. Or to put it another way like you are sitting above a fire.
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