| Author | Message | ||
     Buellerxt |
My current Harley/Buell battery is only 26 months old and the starting delay has grown from the regular Buell delay to 2-3 seconds before it fires up. With three bikes I don't ride it every day but I get it out on good rides and have 30,000 miles on it. I also keep it on a battery tender all of the time. My tech said, 'yeah you've lost cranking amps but it still has life'. I don't want to be stranded though so I'm looking at a replacement. Thoughts on the big loss in cranking power in only two years? Thanks. | ||
| Fotoguzzi |
why do people insist on using a battery tender? they don't do what you think they do.. my bikes start right up after winter (indoor, Odyssey batt) storage without any tender . | ||
| Rayycc1 |
I never use a battery tender...and my bike fires right up after winter too...As far as the delay goes...clean the grounding contact up under the air box...the big bare looking cable. I recently rotated my motor for other work and cleaned that cable and its grounding points as i was putting it back together...and now I have no delay at all...I also fixed my 77 connector at that time...but since doing those two things my charging system is putting out 14.4volts religiously. I'm not sure which solved what but i'm happy they did. | ||
| Buellerxt |
Are you suggesting that the battery tender reduces battery life or harms it in some way, Foto? (Message edited by buellerxt on September 29, 2014) | ||
| Fotoguzzi |
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=67447.0 There have been a LOT of people on this forum that have connected a Tender to their battery, and a month later when they go to start the bike the battery is TOAST. A search of the forum will reveal them. Most people then blame the fairly new battery, not the charger which they assume is perfect. So they just get a new battery, and connect the defective charger back onto the bike. I have heard that story so many times from so many people, I suspect that the Tenders have a flaw. I think they can get in a mode where they 'stick' at the high charge rate and cook the battery. I use a cheap desulfate charger from Northern Handyman. I opened it up and set the peak voltage to 14.2, and the standby voltage to 13.4. Those voltages don't put a full charge in the battery, but they protect it from sulfating. I don't plan to change this formula because my battery life has been amazing. Good post, Sack, but I'll add one thing. AGM batteries will not lose water if charged according to the manufacturer's specifications. But going even a little above the AGM battery's recommended float voltage is likely to cause venting out the overpressure valve, which all AGMs have, whether they're easily visible or not. Since the glass mats in an AGM are saturated with acid (electrolyte), but have none to spare, venting will lead to rapid deterioration of the battery. Hence, AGM batteries are more sensitive to overcharging than flooded batteries that allow replacement of lost water. | ||
| Reepicheep |
All battery tender technologies are not equal. I had the $5 one from harbor freight, didn't hurt anything, but did no good either. Then I got a Shumaker smart tender from Wal Mart for $30 or so, and if I put it on and off 5 or 6 times, it will bring an otherwise barely working HD AGM battery back to "works OK". My HD dealer offered no core refund for the battery replacement, so I now have 3 HD AGM batteries kicking around the garage. One is in the Uly, one is in the KZ-400 cafe project, and one is on the bench getting refreshed by the smart charger. The worst of the three batteries is the newest (I wasn't alone noticing a quality drop in newer HD AGM batteries). | ||
| Etennuly |
I have never run a tender on any of my batteries. My Uly has only run a half dozen times in the past six months and always starts on it's own with a now two year old AGM battery. It will crank hard sometimes on the first start of the day, but it always does start, and it cranks great as it is run and has time to top off it's charge. Usually I run these batteries until they crank the Uly too slow when fully charged. Then I put that battery into the wife's Blast for a couple more years. When I rode nearly every day for several years the batteries never made it more than two years in my bike. I rode year round with a lot of lights and heated stuff on in cold months. (Message edited by etennuly on September 30, 2014) | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
I bought a Shorai. It went weak in under two years and Shorai's answer to that was to try to sell me another for 1/2 their full retail and that would be 115 bucks. I said they must be joking, that I've got too much invested in their shiity battery the way it is. They said they'd send me another battery once one comes in that checks out OK and that is a battery that comes in and they sucker the person into buying another at 1/2 price. That was over a month ago and I call them every week or two and they always give me the same song and dance. I'm still waiting for a replacement Shorai. My son's Shorai has held up just fine though. In the mean time I bought a regular battery at H-D and it works better than the Shorai ever did in terms of hesitation. Maybe it is because before I installed it I put it on a Tender for 1/2 a day even though the shop said it was fully charged. Bike starts without any discernible hesitation so far. | ||
| Buellerxt |
Thanks guys. I really appreciate the good input. I've tried to research batteries and tenders the best I can and looked hard at the lithium ion batteries too. Your input E.G., is in line with my findings. I've decided to go back with a Harley AGM, keep it on my Battery Tender Plus when not in use and ride on. Thanks again, it was all helpful.  | ||
| Teeps |
My experience: I bought my '06 Ulysses in May of '06, with 850 miles. The bike had sat, unused, from November '05 through May '06, battery was not on a charger or "tender." The original Harley battery crapped out summer of '06. Installed a Yuasa AGM and it lasted for almost 8 years; yes it was on a battery tender jr. (wall wart edition) Installed the second Yuasa this year. The first replacement was still working but I figured 8 years, why risk it... right? Interestingly the Buell-H/D dealer told me in '06 that the reason the original battery failed, was because it was not "maintained." | ||
| Reepicheep |
Read the instructions with your tender to make sure it is compatible with your battery technology. I think this is the model I got... $16 from WalMart. http://www.walmart.com/ip/Schumacher-XM1-5-Maintai ner-1.5-Amp/15140193 Useless for quick charge, full charge, or jump starting help. But it seems to work minor miracles bringing old tired batteries back to life (reboot it every few days for 5 or 10 times to have it re-start it's conditioning cycle.. not sure it is necessary but it makes me feel better). | ||
| Uly_man |
I have never used a tender and you DO NOT need to either. My old original 06 bikes HD AGM battery is still fine and is now on another bike. My 10 bikes HD AGM battery has been off the bike for 3 months and, just checked it, is still holding a 13v charge. The best way is to either remove the battery Negative lead or remove the battery, from the bike, if the ambient temp is going to drop to near zero degrees C which can damage an AGM battery. The thing that people need to understand is that an AGM battery is NOT like the old type lead acid versions. Nor for that matter is ANY modern type battery IE Li, Calcium, etc. The charging system on a Uly does not work well, in my opinion, for an AGM battery and may be the case on other modern bikes as well. I think that the constant charge (bike and/ or tender) causes a "memory" effect something along the lines of a Ni-Cad battery. What happens is that you get a faster than normal volt discharge. The result is that you check the battery volts after a run and it is say 13.5v but the following day it has dropped to say 12.2v. Which is WAY, WAY to much on a bike like the Uly which needs ALL the volts it can get for good cranking. With an AGM battery you need to use a smart charger that is specific to the battery type. The reason is because this "smart charger" will test the battery on connection and "condition" the battery as needed to give full output. A old school "load test" is NOT the way to test a AGM battery. It is true to say that a good AGM battery charger/ tender is not cheap. My Ring Smart Charge PRO25 cost me a lot of money but saying that it is a Pro tool and good for my car stuff as well. | ||
| Hootowl |
I use tenders designed for AGM batteries on all my bikes. If that makes me a moron, so be it. But all my bikes start, no matter how long I let them sit with the battery not disconnected. | ||
| Uly_man |
"I use tenders designed for AGM batteries on all my bikes. If that makes me a moron, so be it". That is how it should be done. | ||
| Big_island_rider |
2001 Harley Deuce purchased 2003, battery replaced 2010 2007 Harley Sportster, battery replaced 2014 2007 Harley Road Glide, replaced last month 2007 Uly battery replaced 2014 What do the first three bike batteries have in common? All are Harley batteries. And a Harley battery tender was used regularly. The Uly's battery was installed just prior to my purchase. YBLMV (your battery life may vary)  | ||
| Arcticktm |
Uly-man Where are you getting your "if the ambient temp is going to drop to near zero degrees C which can damage an AGM battery" information or experience from? A temp like that should be no problem for any AGM battery (or any battery at all) in halfway decent shape. Of course it will have less power like any conventional battery at cold temps, but it should suffer no permanent damage. AGM's are used all the time in equipment that gets way colder than 0C (like snowmobiles). Just wondering, as I think it may make some folks paranoid this winter. Like you, I invested in a nice smart charger finally (though not as fancy as yours, for sure). My '06 XB12X stock battery lasted a strong 6 years, and I still have it as a functional (if borderline) back up battery. that was before I bought the charger. Note that 1.5amp charger some have mentioned is still too much amperage for small batteries. I got a charger that goes down to 0.5 amp if needed because I also have some small batteries to maintain (son's Yamaha TTR50). | ||
| Reepicheep |
That charger is microprocessor controlled, so it isn't a universal 1.5 amp, it is throttled (though I don't know how much). | ||
| Buellerxt |
A lot of good input. Thank you. Now the GOOD news. My Uly got a new Harley AGM battery, fully charged on my Battery Tender Plus before installation, and it fired to life immediately! Ah, if it could only do that, consistently, for the next 3-4 years! I LOVE this bike. It's a great sport bike, adventure bike, touring bike, etc. A hard to beat combination for sure. Light, powerful, fun, comfortable, a LOT of torque, great storage, and on and on. Sorry to digress but I can't help myself when talking about my Uly. | ||
| Ratbuell |
I rotate a Battery Tender Jr. through my bikes during the off-season. Couple days on this one, couple days on that one, etc. 06 Uly, replaced the FACTORY BATTERY earlier this season. Still started fine, but I had a trip-odometer-reset issue that I thought was amp draw zeroing it out. Turns out (through further testing)... I have a bad battery wire going to the cluster that I have to trace. I probably could have gotten 1-2 more years out of that battery. 98 S1W, put a battery in it in 06 when I bought it...still going strong. 01 M2L, put a battery in it when I bought it for the ex back in...what...08? 07? Still going strong. 09 1125CR, bought new at the blowout in 09. Stator died, I sucked the battery dry getting it home. Warranty replaced that battery in '11, still going strong. 95 S2, put a battery in it in (I think) '06 or '07, going strong. I also have kuryakyn voltmeters on every bike except the 1125, and my Uly (when the VR crapped out) got a shindengen VR which gives me rock solid V readings at all revs and all loads (heated clothes, 55w aux lights, both-on highbeam mod, heated grips, HID low beam). | ||
| Fotoguzzi |
where do you get that shindengen VR? | ||
| Ratbuell |
roadstercycle.com | ||
| Ulyful |
I've always thought the battery tenders could possibly malfunction and "cook" the battery, but I still use it. To keep that possibility from happening, I only plug it in long enough to get the light on the tender to turn green (3-4 times over the ~5 months the motorcycles sit in the garage in sometimes sub-zero temps over the winter) and then I unplug it and put it away for next time. I don't bother taking the batteries out of the bikes either. Had plenty of MC batteries last +8 years. | ||
| Fotoguzzi |
sounds like a good policy.. I have at least 3 trickle chargers that came with bikes i bought.. never used any of them..but my garage is heated over winter at 45F. Lucky me! | ||
| Griffmeister |
Yeah, I don't get the part about zero degrees C either. My bike is outside all winter and ridden when the roads are clear and dry. My limit though is about 22 degrees F in the morning, I'm not a big fan of winter, but we do get days below zero F which is about -18 degrees C. Original battery in an 08 and still working. I also don't get the deal about keeping the charge rate low. The Uly is a 30amp system with nothing regulating the charge rate. If that first crank on a cold morning draws the battery down then it's going to want to suck up whatever the charging system can give it until it's recharged. Yes, I know the battery doesn't want the full 30 amp potential, but it will definitely be getting more than 1 or 2 amps. Lastly, refer to section 1.10 page 1-33 in the 08 electrical diagnostic manual. A battery is considered to be 100% charged at 12.7 VDC. A fully charged battery can be load tested at 1/2 CCA which for an original HD battery is 100 amps. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Griff, the Uly absolutely does regulate the charging rate... the voltage regulator is a shunt regulator that dumps excess current to ground thereby preventing the battery from going over voltage. Basically, the voltage regulator watches the voltage sinusoidal wave climb, and when it exceeds the maximum voltage the battery can safely handle, it basically shorts out the stator output to ground (keeping it away from the battery) for the rest of that wave form. A goofy way to do it, to understand why that approach works you have to understand the equations for power (volts times amps is power). You can "game" that system and switch large power by keeping either the volts or the amps at zero, thereby keeping the power the device is dissipating at near zero. 100V and zero amps? Easy peasy. 100 amps an no volts? Harder, but a thick enough chunk of copper will do it forever with no problem. 50V at 50Amps? Smoking crater. | ||
| Griffmeister |
But Reep, the manual says it's a series regulator. Wouldn't that mean it's a MOSFET type rather than a shunt? Either way it's not regulating current directly, only as a function of voltage. Under normal conditions the VR will try to maintain an output voltage of 14.7 VDC. If you add an extra load to the system, the voltage is going to try and drop. The VR will respond by allowing an increase in output to bring the voltage back up. As I was trying to say, if the battery is somewhat depleted by starting the engine, it's voltage will be low so the VR will probably allow a significant amount of current through to maintain 14.7 volts in the system, most likely more than 1 or 2 amps. That's why I don't think that an exotic battery with critical charging requirements is such a good idea with this type of system. | ||
| Reepicheep |
You can make a shunt out of a MOSFET or an SCR. If I was designing a shunt regulator, I'd use a MOSFET. You would need either a MOSFET or a transistor to make a simple series regulator. Whatever it is would have to be REALLY big, because it will have to dissipate MAJOR power. I never noticed the manual saying it was a series regulator. The way it is wired in (the VR connects in parallel with the stator output) I think it must be a shunt and can't be series. But I don't have the schematic in front of me, maybe it changed or maybe I misread it. I agree that the voltage regulator (regardless of configuration) was engineered (fairly well, apparently) for a lead acid AGM battery, and that using some other kind of battery could have significant negative effects on both the charging system and the battery. (Or it may not matter, the whole system is designed to take a lot of abuse even when it is working right). | ||
| Teeps |
In this application (permanent magnet alternator) the V-reg has to deal with the excess current. That current has to go somewhere, that somewhere is to ground through the regulator. Hence the bigass heat sink (fins) on the regulator assembly. In a field/rotor alternator, the V-reg controls the voltage/current to the field/rotor. So in theory, the V-reg prevents excess current from being produced in the first place. There is no extra voltage/current and no extra heat in this design. There is also a performance and/or MPG gain to be had with smart control of the field current. Most(?) if not all modern cars have smart alternator controls for this reason. Far as those fancy batteries goes, the battery should have a built in regulator or charger to cope with their specific needs. Whether they do or don't, I have no idea. | ||
| Stevewauk |
I've stored my Uly in an unheated shed in the back yard through a couple of Wisconsin winters. I have heard extreme cold can damage the battery if it's not kept on a tender on trickle charge, so I hook one up. It works so far. Starts right up in the Spring. | ||
| Griffmeister |
Maybe the 08 and later system is different? Section 1.9 in the electrical manual specifically says series. Also there is no schematic for the VR itself, just shows it as a unit in the charging system, two wires in and two separate wires out. Nothing parallel there. Wish they did show the insides in the schematic but I guess as a non serviceable unit it didn't matter. Steve, keep the tender or bring it inside. After all, lead/acid is just a chemical reaction, the lower the charge the more the liquid component turns to water. We all know when water freezes. |
