| Author | Message | ||
     Etennuly |
No, the original fan went up in a literal ball of smoke while 600 miles from home on a hot August weekend four or five years ago. The problem was happening with the old fan as well as the new one. I also always tried to figure out the "why" while I was going through two and a half years of trials and tribulations. It was stressing me out, burning me out, pissing me off, ruining one ride after another, and more than once I looked at trading the Uly for something else.....anything else. I figured it out on my way back from Homecoming 2010 while riding with Wolfridgerider down a 95F degree Interstate in Indiana, when I could not exceed 55 mph again. Even he was getting annoyed at going that slow. I pulled into a gas station really pissed off this time. I had no remorse or second thoughts, I just cut the fan wire and rigged it to stay on full time with a wire nut I found on the ground at that gas station. After that, when ever I stopped, I took the wire nut off. It worked great. It was the only thing that worked and stayed.....ever. So here I am today. Fan manually turned on all of the time after the engine is warmed up. It still works great.  I no longer even care why.....I mean why bother, HD never did, even though they had the bike for more than a week at a time more than once, specifically for this problem. I know it did it to them, they just had no fix so they denied that it ever happened. | ||
| Etennuly |
I bought mine new in June 2006, the longest I have owned a bike also. Well except for the XL250 that is in my shed, Oh yeah, I bought the wife's Blast before the Uly by six months. But I know what you mean. It could be my last also, I ain't getting any younger, and it only has 61,000 miles on it so far. I really believe the problem is simply too much voltage/amperage load through the ECM. I also think it can be the cause of other ECM controlled items to miss-fire due to the electrical over load. The way I see it the ECM has it's work load on controlling and "thinking" about engine commands and such, then a really hot electric motor demands a large voltage spike through the ECM momentarily "dimming" it's other controls. But that is just my opinion, I am just a body man gone rogue on electromechanical problems that apparently the experts at HD could not find resolution for.....for if they had we would all be drinking at that trough for this problem.  Sometimes an algebraic solution is best viewed without showing your work. (Message edited by etennuly on June 24, 2014) | ||
| Teeps |
Well you shot my fan theory into the weeds Etenn. | ||
| Xbimmer |
Update, bike ran great yesterday to work, ran a 30 mile loop mostly freeways 75-85 mph, no CEL or SS. Engine loping along as it should at stops, and the weather was pretty warm by noon. Only issue, which I consider unrelated since it's been going on long before all this recent crap, was that sporadic momentary shutdown once. Again I suspect the BAS since the one time that happened at night I lost power but not the headlight, it could also be the kill switch circuit I guess but BAS's DO wear out I've discovered. Vern your Fan Switch Fix will go down in history as Great Buell Mods like Treadmark's Weep Hole  but for now I'm trying to isolate why this only occurred after I did my overhaul. Before that I had NO SS issues after installing that '07 ECM, even while freeway droning at 75-85 through the desert coming back from Tucson couple of years ago with temps in the 100-teens! | ||
| Xbimmer |
Hmmm.... where can I find a 12V ambient temp thermostat activated switch...? | ||
| Etennuly |
With my Uly it started doing it's SS thing while heading west one sunny day on a trip to get a truck for my work. There is a looooooong up hill on Interstate 40 West of Knoxville. I was cruising along at about 72 mph and got passed by a Honda 1000 crotch rocket something or other, in two up form(really nice passenger form). So I thought it would be cool to catch up to cruise behind them for a while. I call them "radar rabbits". Someone willing to run ten mph faster than the crowd, where I lay back a fair distance and mimic their speed, keeping them just in sight. I gave my throttle a little twist and it slowed down, further and it slowed more. Soon I had to pull in behind the truck I was passing and let other traffic pass me as I slowed to 55 mph for the duration of the hill. After that it did SS randomly as if it knew when I was wanting to actually go someplace. As a few weeks went by it started hitting SS everytime the temperature was above 80 wherein I was trying to run 70 mph. I had the Uly into HD several times for this, once a technician supposedly rode it home each night to see if it would happen. They said they could not replicate the problem.....BS. Even as I left the dealership I could not make it NOT happen. Then I got into lists of stuff I fixed like you guys have been going through above. I got a known good ECM that worked flawlessly on the bike it came from, where he installed a Race ecm. Fixed it for a couple of days.....then bam! It was back. Temp sensor.....couple of days.....again. Cleaned every ground.....again, fixed wiring, changed timing, added extra heat exhaust port, ran different oils, different fuels, tried octane boosters with a little more advance, removed and cleaned muffler.....the list goes on and on. Nearly every fix made it work fine for a hundred miles or so. All of this over that two and a half years until I got really pissed off one hot afternoon on the Interstate. This is why the red light does not faze me. It is my little victory marker. Now for me it is a marker that something is wrong if the light does not stay on. I had had enough of this;  .....it was too often interrupting this; That is my story and I am stuck with it! | ||
| Portero72 |
Xbimmer- Not trying to hijack, just want to clarify one of your issues; it was an O2 sensor code that you suspect was wiring related, you bypassed the(PITA) loom, and went straight to the ecm? I only ask because I have had a similar random issue that threw the O2 code. And do NOT want to dig through that harness again. Almost thought about installing a brand new harness... | ||
| Etennuly |
I had an O2 code at one time also. The O2 sensor wire was bound and worn/melted into the engine temp sensor wire where they crossed. Pulled them apart, wrapped and taped them back. All good since then. | ||
| Teeps |
Etenn, I tend to believe that the dealer could not duplicate the problem. As I have stated before, least for my Uly, the SS event is fickle, I can do several rides with out so much as a errant pop. Then out of the blue, there it is! Almost finished with the "Etennuly fan switch mod"; Sunday I will do the ride that usually produces SS condition on my Uly. When/if it happens, I will flip the switch to see what effect grounding the fan straight to the battery has, on SS. | ||
| Etennuly |
So you are still letting the ECM control the fan and using the ground as an overriding ground jumper wire? My program totally took the ECM out of the fan's control loop. If yours is an add on ground I would think there is a chance it may not work properly, unless you have tested it to where your ground switch overrides the ECM and just turns the fan on regardless. When the dealer had my bike for the week the tech supposedly rode it home every day, it was above 90F every day and the Uly could not make it two miles in any direction over 55 mph without hitting SS. It was really sick. Within a couple of miles of me leaving the dealership it was doing it. There is no possible way they could have NOT made it happen. I spent over twenty years working in new car dealership body shops having heard the stories customers go home with when there is no fix for a problem. I won't directly say that they will lie to a customer, but the denial of seeing the problem in their face first hand, and subsequent line of BS that follows, makes me think that a simple lie would have been more honest. | ||
| Xbimmer |
Portero I bought a Dorman 85388 pigtail and attached a new Deutsch socket to the end to swap out the factory connection. Taking apart the Deutsch ECM plug is easy.  The reason I bypassed the harness was ECM Spy kept telling me the sensor was "inactive or open". The swap worked great, no more 13 trouble code but the SS returned. Then the new ETS, and the 13 code reappeared. Then the idea to pull both ECM connectors and spray the crap out of the sockets with electronics (plastic safe) cleaner, and everything's been golden this week including drastically reduced fan activity. Since I had re-ziptied the connector bundles each time I did something in there I don't know whether that had any influence. The new ETS has a Delphi connector instead of a small bullet connector, I ran that straight to the ECM also. I'll take pics eventually but as of now I'm not disturbing ANYTHING until I get my ride in this Sunday!  I understand Etenn's fix, sort of get Danair's fix, waiting to see what Teeps does before I build my fan bypass. If I go the manual switch route, think I'll use my dormant AutoSwitch I have in there, that would also give me an indicator light on the panel for operation. Another day yesterday, no CEL or SS, fan off until shutdown.  | ||
| Teeps |
Etennuly Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2014 - So you are still letting the ECM control the fan and using the ground as an overriding ground jumper wire? Yes. When the aux fan circuit is off and the bike is shut down, the ECM controls the fan using the normal cool down routine. | ||
| Etennuly |
That is interesting. What I have found that with the fan manually on all of the time is that the engine runs a bit cooler all around. When I get to a stopping point I shut the engine down, turn off my key, step off the bike, remove my helmet and gloves, then turn off the fan. Engine heat is less a problem altogether. So far the only time I walked away without turning off the fan was with a group of Uly riders where everyone's fans were on and I did not remove my helmet right away because I was carrying it in to the restaurant we were entering. Twenty five or thirty minutes later it still fired right up. Oh well, the only thing that matters is that it avoids SS and it works! | ||
| Teeps |
Well, I was all set to "flip" my bypass fan switch, when ever Uly decided to SS. Made the 50 mile run to the diner. Stopped there for an hour or so. Then Rode 100 miles continuously and did not experience SS. I guess it was not hot enough(?) today... I did make another observation, with regard to the manual switched fan parallel ground. As before manually switching the fan on produced the CEL. Switching the fan off; the CEL would go off. Except when the ECM sees fan operation temperature. Turning the fan switch to off in this condition. The CEL does not turn off, but the ECM has control of the fan, and the fan stays on. Toggling the IG switch off/on turned the CEL off. | ||
| Etennuly |
What CEL?  Look at the fun you are having learning stuff!  I would just as soon not ever "wait for ss to happen". It simply doesn't happen with the fan manually on. | ||
| Teeps |
Check Engine Light (red) Did you put tape over it? | ||
| Etennuly |
Check Engine Light (red) Did you put tape over it? No, it is still red. I just don't look at it anymore.  Like any good warning light, if you see it all of the time, soon you will no longer see it at all(unless it flashes of course). | ||
| Teeps |
roger that. | ||
| Xbimmer |
Sorry for this lonnnng post but couldn't get my lazy butt to do it this week and I have new info. Last Sunday was great, good seeing you again Teeps. Rode around with my daughter and my brother in the mountains and up the coast, only issues at the time being a failing horn and erratic jumping tach. Bike did so well that week I decided to wash it (!) Saturday so I figured some water got in somewhere causing those problems. Teeps pointed out we got shot. Me back "home": http://shop.rockstorephotos.com/p287017063/h15032c 30#h15032c30 My brother: http://shop.rockstorephotos.com/p287017063/h15032c 30#haecf4bc My daughter: http://shop.rockstorephotos.com/p287017063/h15032c 30#h6848365 Went on to watch my son and younger daughter play hockey and after-game lunch, I had a GREAT postponed Fathers Day ride!  Everything else was fine except for the hot-start idle-down thing. Then on the way home, at the 230-mile mark, CEL lit up. I rolled it up to 90 and backed off and so did the light, but then at the 238-mile mark... SS again. Not for long, maybe a mile, and it was pretty hot with a good headwind at the time. Slowed to 70 and it went away for the rest of the 40 miles home. I attributed this to the heat in the 90's, speed and lots of headwind, so didn't worry much but that tach was bugging the hell out of me by then. Everything back to normal (except the tach) last week, until Tuesday... CEL came on on the way to work. Got to work, plugged in my jumper to check for a code, hit the power/kill switch, nothing. Toggle key and switch, nothing. Pulled off the seat, jiggled the wires and the BAS, nothing still. Gave the ECM a good rap with my knuckle and on comes the fuel pump and muffler valve. Checked the code and got good old 13. Wednesday was worse, leaving a stop and turning left through the intersection it shut off momentarily (again) and I damn near dropped it for the first time in 8 years... So Thursday night I plugged in my resoldered '06 ECM, bike fired right up though with a bit high idle. Put it on ECM Spy next morning to 0 the TPS and went for a test ride. Gone is the tach issue, it runs great, the ping that plagued the bike when new until I swapped ECM's doesn't seem to be there and my 35-mile loop produced a SS condition only after 85 mph in 100deg heat against 30mph+ winds for 15 miles, and only for a minute. I'm encouraged. This w/e I build a better ECM ground wire and start planning my fan bypass, add to that rewiring the IAT and cracking into the '07 ECM now. Think I'll pull the fuel pump too, maybe it needs filter attention. The saga continues... | ||
| Teeps |
Making progress... Did 160 miles on Ulysses today, and SS occurred, sooner than expected. Which actually made me happy, for a change. I flipped the AUX fan switch while SS was occurring; SS is gone! AND, the Check Engine Light was off, too. So, I turned the fan switch off and SS came back. Turned the fan switch back on and SS gone, and again CEL was not on. This knowledge satisfies my concern that the ECM is not in some kind of "backup" or "limp mode", because of the open circuit detected. AKA Etenn fan circuit mod. Adding the aux ground switch the way I did mine. Retains the cool down routine when the ride is concluded when the AUX switch and IG key are turned off. Next step, when I get ambitious, add the power relay, with a path from the fan to the ECM by way of a diode. This way, the AUX ground path will be seamless, while retaining the normal key off cool down routine. | ||
| Etennuly |
That is progress! I just got back from a 110 mile jaunt at 80F+ with my fan and red light on. It ran perfectly! Never hit SS, so I avoided having to turn the fan on.....because it was already on!  Is your objective to make a sensor, outside the bike's normal ECM control system, turn the fan on and off at a prescribed temperatures to avoid the manual switching? If so would that not override the ECM's SS limp home mode? Seems like maybe opening another potential can of worms? As it stands my Uly's red CEL will flash if it overheats, and it will still go into SS. | ||
| Teeps |
Etenn, Short answer is no. In the end, my way (with relay & diode) will relieve the ECM's job of grounding the fan. Without turning on the CEL and retaining the normal cool down routine. So are you saying that even running the fan manually, your bike still does SS? | ||
| Etennuly |
Well by a test done purely by brain fade, by me no less, I rode the bike for nearly an entire day in 60F temps without turning the fan on at all. All was good and normal until I went up a two mile long hill at 65 mph. As I neared the top it went into 'flashing light SS'. I turned the fan on immediately. It did the SS for about three minutes at which time I also crested the hill. It cooled down and never did it again. But I also have not ridden in temps above 50F without the fan being on since that time. | ||
| Teeps |
^^^ Interesting ^^^ | ||
| Xbimmer |
Teeps, how about a schematic? I'm toying with the idea to incorporate an ambient temp activated "on/off" switch: http://www.amazon.com/Hayden-Automotive-3653-Adjus table-Thermostatic/dp/B000C39C6I | ||
| Sagehawk |
Just installed a hayden fan n controller in my mazda b2500 and i really like it. Thing is, your not really measuring coolant temp with that probe. Radiator is 12 or so inches away from motor and i shot hose temps to get idea of what radiator was doing. Thats where adjustment is going to be at. Just have to view parameters differently. Like shooting oil line temps. Didnt care what oil was actually doing as to what each component of system was doing. Anyhow, my uly has never done ss. What ecms are involved in this? Stock, ebr, buell race ecms? I just altered my key on temp setting where fan just runs at lower temps to help cool. Might lower it more now that 90's are the norm. | ||
| Etennuly |
My Uly has done SS with two known good stock ECMs. I am still running the second ECM with my fan mod. The results of changing ECM 1 for known good ECM 2 were no change at all. First time out SS happened where the bike it came off from never had it happen. Also it did SS with two different fan motors. | ||
| Teeps |
Xbimmer Posted on Friday, July 11, 2014 - Teeps, how about a schematic? How's this?  I used 18ga wire for the fan circuit. 20ga could probably be used for the relay coil circuit. Also, the fan on my Uly draws 5 amps, as measured straight to battery ground through an amp meter in series. How and where connections are made is up to you. | ||
| Teeps |
Etennuly Posted on Sunday, July 13, 2014 - My Uly has done SS with two known good stock ECMs As has mine. The ECM is the only part I've replaced. But, not for SS problem. I have not replaced other parts for SS problem. Because other folks have reported that various new parts did not fix the problem. This whole SS thing is stinking like Al Lighton's first rule of Electrical Troubleshooting. "All electrical problems are ground related; until proven not." | ||
| Rayycc1 |
"My Uly has done SS with two known good stock ECMs. I am still running the second ECM with my fan mod. The results of changing ECM 1 for known good ECM 2 were no change at all. First time out SS happened where the bike it came off from never had it happen. Also it did SS with two different fan motors." Have you ever physically checked to see exactly what temps your motor is making? just wondering if your motor might not get warmer than normal for some reason? I cant tell you how much i have a love /hate thing going on with this thread...on one hand i hate to think of being halfway thru a couple hundred mile ride and have to deal with this.....on the other hand.... I hate to say it....but i am kind of glad this happened to you guys and that you figured it out for the rest of us. My bike for some reason...knock on wood...seems to run ...dare i say...cool. I dont have a comfort kit on it and the heat doesnt bother me much....and most times unless i'm really going the fan hardly ever seems to run. I am glad should it ever SS that i now know theres a fix. Thank you . I can fix most things but electrics are not my strong point. |
