| Author | Message | ||
     Xbimmer |
Anybody know whether the chewing gum foil paper-looking wraps on the O2 and ET sensor wires under the baseplate are conductive or maybe insulating or? I'm thinking of bypassing the harness under there and going straight to the ECM. Thanks. | ||
| Etennuly |
I believe that foil is heat insulation. Mine didn't work so well for the ET sensor, the wire's regular insulation was cracked and fell off to bare wires for an inch or so. I replaced the ET sensor for the wire. | ||
| Xbimmer |
Thanks Vern, I'm thinking the same. I put my DVOM to them and they conduct but not worth a hoot, I can run new leads to the back with better heat protection anyway. Gotta sort out these gremlins, think something got damaged in the harness during my last two back to back rotations that only turns up when it's good and hot. | ||
| Teeps |
Yesterday, the Uly had skip spark all the way home from La Cresenta. And, yes this was after about 2 1/2 hours of continuous riding 55 mph or faster. The weird thing was some times it felt like skip spark but no red engine light. At one point the red engine light stayed on and the skip spark stopped. Only a minute later to start up again. Found 2 DTCs fan open or short and 02 sensor open. | ||
| Sagehawk |
When i first got 12x, and reading on this site, i bought several feet of small diameter vacuum hose. Cut to length of whatever wire by rear cylinder head i was covering. Slit it lengthwise and slipped over wire. Awkward looking but nothing touching hot or sharp metal. 0 problems to date with sensor wires in that area. Now where is that piece of wood at to knock on? | ||
| Xbimmer |
At one point the red engine light stayed on and the skip spark stopped. Only a minute later to start up again. Last Sunday mine did similar, started SS'ing about 15 miles into the trip, then from about Fontana to Pasadena the light stayed on and it ran great. Then back to flashing and skipping the rest of the day whenever I pushed it above 60-65. ...and 02 sensor open. Same code I get. Second new sensor so I'm suspecting wiring first. Pulled my ETS yesterday, I don't remember doing it but I think there's copper antiseize on it, maybe that was skewing the readings. In any case I'm routing that away from the harness too. Tom I don't remember you having Skip Spark issues before, correct? I like the vacuum hose idea, think I'll cut some short sections to cushion away from the valve cover and frame sections. Tried wire loom once, big mistake. Stuff melted all over my rear valve cover... Hope this isn't all pointing to another broken ECM, that's going to be a hard sell to my personal accountant after all the money I've dumped into this bike lately. | ||
| Teeps |
My Uly has done SS, off and on, for a few years now. Only at freeway speeds and only after an hour or more of continuous running. In March, this year, the fan came on in less than 3 miles from a cold start. Ambient temp was less than 70F. And, I thought it was fixed after I soldered the ECM terminals... :-( | ||
| Etennuly |
I had that run/skip issue for two and a half summers and it drove me nuts. I replaced a bunch of stuff that made sense and changed a few things here and there but it never stayed fixed until I hard wired the fan. I found the fan is controlled by ground through the ECM. It is an electric motor, it takes a lot of power to start this little motor especially when hot. My theory, after fixing it and a lot of consideration, is that the ECM is being overloaded by the on/off ground switching of the fan. But what do I know?  I ran a ground wire to a switch on the bars, through the switch, and back to the wire that I cut loose from the ECM that controls the fan. I turn it on after warm up and leave it on the entire time I am riding. I shut it off when I shut the bike off. It has never over heated or gone into run/skip since, the only problem is that I have a constant red light because of the fan wire being removed from the ECM. But after two and a half years of HD saying it never happened, and several trips being ruined by run/skip, I was so happy with the way it runs, I don't care if a little red light is on. It is my glaring little reminder that I finally won over that little bastard of a repair. The light will flash if any other problems come up, and it is not the oil pressure light, so I just don't care. I got a great ride that runs cooler than the stock set up and the seat stays cooler as well. | ||
| Danair |
I've always hated the ecm used as the ground path, especially with an iffy fan. Fabbed a latching relay triggered by the call for ground from ecm. Let it handle the current. Once upon time we i had a Yamaha XS 650, only transpo. My grandma's Rambler had a horn that would wake the dead, and just foul. Took it changing her oil and put on bike just waiting for the next cager to cut me off or take to long on a green. They did and I layed it on and held it down....take that. I couldn't get off the bike or get my glove off fast enough. The contact in the housing melted right thru the button and starting thru the glove. And now it was melted closed. Luckily, I had come straight off the battery, so we just stood there and listened to it kill the battery and generate smoke....horn made such strange noises as the battery was in its death throes that the bike was..... well, smoking and we could only laugh hysterically. | ||
| Teeps |
So. I swap out a '05 XB12S ECM with the '07 Eprom flashed. Rode for nearly an hour, in town (stop lights & stop signs) and along the coast (@ 45mph), before the fan came on, about 25 miles.... No running problems today. | ||
| Teeps |
Danair, Above you said a latching relay. Once the fan comes on, the relay does not shut it off until when? | ||
| Xbimmer |
Good news for you Teeps, think then it's your original ECM? Does your '06 ECM still have the '06 program? Anybody know whether the ECM connector terminal sockets are available from HD? | ||
| Etennuly |
Teeps I hope that fixes it for you. I swapped a known good ECM in place of my original, it fixed the problem for a couple of weeks, then it came back.....again, then I replaced other parts, it was fixed for a week or two, then it came back..... again.....repeat this about ten or twelve times over two and a half years. Good luck! | ||
| Teeps |
Until the bike is ridden steady for over an hour, I'm not declaring a successful repair. Not to mention that Al states on the American Sport Bike catalog that the ET sensors have proven troublesome and difficult to diagnose... short of replacement. Etennuly, I suspect that your ECM is in a default or failsafe mode (because the red check engine indicator is on.) I don't think you have "fixed" the problem with your fan control bypass switch, as much as you have applied a band aide. But hey! If it works who am I to dispute the success? | ||
| Etennuly |
It is the best band-aid ever. If it could be found, there are two years of threads of myself and many others fighting this problem. We all had many successful repairs that turned out to be temporary. This repair fixed it, I don't mind turning the fan on and off, it makes the bike work. The engineers who designed the set up never did come out with a fix that I ever heard of. My Uly started doing it while at the end of it's warranty program. HD had it several times and they even had a tech ride it home and back for a week. They said they could not recreate the problem that I had every time I rode the bike in above 80F temperatures. The last time I left there with the bike it did it again on the way home. I know it happened to them, they just did not have a fix. The light being on is a direct result of cutting the fan's control wire from the ECM. One of the engineering type guys executed an electrical patch to get the light to recognize the fan being outside the ECM's control. He made his light work normally with the fan set up manually. He is smarter and more ambitious than me. I was just looking for a functional bike that would not make me pull anymore hair out!  I GOT IT! I ride it! That problem is history for my Uly. | ||
| Teeps |
Ride On! | ||
| Teeps |
Xbimmer Posted on Wednesday, June 04, 2014 - Does your '06 ECM still have the '06 program? No, Daves flashed my '06 ECM to '07 specs, after I replaced the air cleaner cove with '07 part. The '05 ECM Eprom has the same flash. | ||
| Xbimmer |
All my running issues disappeared once I installed the stock new takeoff '07 ECM, ran great until recently with a momentary shutoff issue, and now after the overhaul the O2 sensor/SS issues. I'm suspecting the BAS for the shutoff problem but again I'm taking the harness out of the equation with a bypass. Found the pin sockets for the jumpers, nobody around here had Deutsch stuff but the local HD dealer had them not too badly priced, 72191-94, same as the trouble code jumper parts I bought which of course I can't find the extras now. Bought a Dorman 85388 O2 sensor pigtail and the ETS will take a standard bullet socket. We'll see, if those changes don't fix it maybe I'll get a new ETS next. Casually optimistic at this point but my old bike is starting to look pretty good about now... | ||
| Teeps |
Yeah, I'm anxious to take the Uly up to Wrightwood next week to see if the SS problem returns. | ||
| Uly_man |
O2, Neutral and ET sensor wires Earth at there mounting points and any covering is just protective. Add more if needed. You can try and diagnose engine running issues in this fashion but you WILL find it hard work, costly and time consuming. Using an engine diagnostic tool is the best way to do it and not hard or costly either. Al said that ET sensors are hard to diagnose a fault. That is because you would have NO IDEA AT ALL what data it was sending to the ECM without a tool to check it. These engines normal top line temp is about 220C and skip starts, unless someone changed it, at about 280C to protect it. So would you think you might have a problem if the ECM thought the engine was 280+ but the engine was in fact only at 200 odd? It is the old computer adage "crap in, crap out". Have fun. | ||
| Danair |
If anyone needs that connector, or the one for O2 at Aircraft Spruce p/n 11-06581....all of $3 Most others there also except the Duetsch 12 pin for the ECM. Get them at this other candy store http://www.deutschconnector.com/products/deutsch_connectors/deutsch_dtm_series_connectors/  (Message edited by danair on June 08, 2014) | ||
| Xbimmer |
Well I have some good results I think. Very satisfied with the O2 pigtail, plenty of length back to the ECM, but I'm not so happy with the ETS jumper so I'm going to make a longer one. Sunday first test, 90 deg outside, ran it hard down the freeway to pick up the wife from work about 6 miles, fan on at stop but no SS. This was expected, usually starts with more distance. She geared up and we took off for the mountain. Took some surface streets to a rural road running enthusiastically, still OK. Got to 138 and started opening it up. Hwy 138 is an awesome road leading out of San Bernardino into the mountains, long sweepers and open views ahead, you go from city to forest in minutes. It starts climbing quickly too, and at 80 that's where it started again. Dammit... Slowed down some to 65 and it went away somewhat, resigned to the fact that I'm still needing to work at this. Instead of continuing to Big Bear we cruised around Forest Falls and turned back. Now it gets better, without the uphill grade (though into a good headwind) we clipped along again 75-80 back the same way, no SS. Rode city streets to dinner for a good 10 miles stop and go, fan running like crazy (still in the 90's) but no SS. Yesterday on the way to work (high 80's again) ran the freeway the long way and fast, no SS. Took extended surface streets in to work and still no SS. On the way home a quick 4 mile blast still no SS. So I'm happy with the O2 sensor reroute, but I still think I'm having an ETS issue, after the bike sits hot it restarts then settles into a lumpy erratic decreasing idle. And just before the SS issue started Sunday it did the momentary shutoff thing again, so hmmm. Think I'm going to try grounding the ECM better with one of the extra sockets I bought, and maybe a new ETS anyway to take it out of the equation. | ||
| Danair |
Teeps, you wire the relay's "coil" ground in series with the fan ground into the ECM.. Now you're grounding less than an amp instead of fan current. You can get solid state that will cycle conditionally...either as.a true latching needing 2 signals or as a normally open solenoid rated for continuous closed. One of the best 12v mechanical ones I've used over the years for various "projects" is a Bosch hi-beam relay (mechanical latching) and horn (momentary) out of 70's 80's Volvos at the junk yard. The fuel pumps out of those Bosch K-Jetronic fuel injection Volvos are handy marvels also....external by the fuel tank, clipped inside the frame rail next to the rear axle. "Salvaged" in less tha a minute. They're about the size of those tiny V8 juice cans and are 12v self contained pumping fools (45-80psi iirc) positive displacement with an internal bypass. I've had all the above issues and posted earlier. For one, bought ETS from AL, made a socket, and effed with it for an hour, thinking socket was wrong size...felt like it wasn't fitting over the hex. Solution...the damn thing was already loose, 2 threads from coming out. Did O2 sensor due to lumpy idles, SS, etc as described here. Solution, head gasket leaking giving O2 sensor *fresh* air skewing its signal. Just happened to notice with ECMspy that the idle was going south...Im talking smoothness not rpm, right when the EGO voltage would come alive, which is not for a while. You'd swear it was idling on one and will quickly reveal that your primary chain is too loose. At speed, smooth as a sewing machine for a while, then I could feel it coming, barely noticeable then creeping up to the SS. Leaking exhaust gaskets will do same. And, since I have the floor, I've noticed that when it all comes together....and those of us that have had these issues know what I mean... you can tell as soon as it lights off. Could last one cycle of the key or a week, so you ride like hell until then. But no amount or method of clutch adjusting makes it shift sweeter than when that engine is running smoothly as intended and has the right amount of rpm decay during the shift, IMHO | ||
| Teeps |
Danair, If I understand your relay installation correctly. The fan only runs at full speed, until the ECM turns the ground path off.  | ||
| Reepicheep |
If you need a "smart relay", I could whip something up using the parts I already have for the heated grip controller. It would probably drive the fan just fine, and it is all solid state. I could change the code to make the fan do whatever you want, including being responsive to temperature. It would be some work, but I can be bribed with parts, bourbon, cigars, or even intriguing promises. If you just want to get the current out of the ECM though, the relay schematic above would work perfectly well, and probably last as long as the fan would provided you got the appropriately spec'd relay. | ||
| Teeps |
Roger that Reep. Seeking clarity of Danair's description. | ||
| Xbimmer |
You guys keep talking about this fan mod, I'm all ears.  Is there a way to rig this so to keep the variable fan speed, or maybe a lower temp triggered low speed to cut in earlier? And the CEL issue would have to be solved, that would drive me nuts if it stayed on. So leaking exhaust gaskets can cause a lean issue/hot running? I don't hear any leaks but I did run those nuts down very lightly to keep from breaking a stud when I r/r'd the pipe. | ||
| Teeps |
Any thing is possible Dean, but at what cost. The dual speed fan is not a deal breaker for the relay mod, in my book. I didn't ask Danair if the CEL was on with his setup, but if it's like the schematic I made... there you go. I might be trading the Uly in for a new bike. If that falls through I will probably pursue the relay suggestion. | ||
| Danair |
That's it. Had a gotcha fiddling with this. I installed smart fuses, they have tiny led's across the fuse terminals so if the fuse opens, it lights up. Basically how to check fuses in place with a volt meter. That tiny led and its minuscule draw made the ECM think the circuit was good. The fuse had blown, I had no fan, and it was HOT, and no CEL!!! As far as dual speed, I haven't messed with it yet. But that's next. As was said above...anything is doable. I'll post when done. That's 120 watts we're taking out of the ECM. (Message edited by danair on June 11, 2014) | ||
| Reepicheep |
That's an important discovery Dan, I saw those fuses for sale and thought them clever, but didn't get one because I'm a cheapskate. But I can see now how they could cause other problems... |
