| Author | Message | ||
     Advoutlander |
The other night I started up the uly and it was running very asthmatic. It sounds like a wheezing sound coming from the intake area. I let it warmup for 10 min and as I set off it immediately bogs down and cuts out if I do not give it a lot of throttle. Around 20mpg it sounds really asthmatic, and the engine note sounds different, power is way down and is simply not running right. The past two weeks have seen heavy snow, so the bike has been in the garage on a battery tender and started up once a week. The thottle adjustment was out of whack but I adjusted it to a decent setting. I had replaced the transmission vent hose as the old one had burnt on the header. I have replaced both pcv grommets and the rear pcv valve as I broke it by accident. One of the grommets fell forward into the square shaft on the rocker which I doubt has anything to do with the problem. I had replaced the oil filter, engine oil and trans oil. It almost sounds like one time when I started in the morning being left out all night at below freezing temperatures. I took the bike to a local motorcycle shop, No luck so far, any ideas? | ||
| Sharkguy |
It could be a number of things. A fouled plug is the first thing that comes to mind. Have you been starting the bike and then not riding it? This can cause problems with the plugs as they don't really get a chance to get to operating temp to clean themselves. I believe there is a procedure for fouled plugs that does not involve taking them out. However, I would at least remove them and take a look if you can. Have a new set to replace them with. What do you mean the throttle adjustment was out of whack? They don't just go bad from sitting. | ||
| Pagprivat |
*It sounds like a wheezing sound coming from the intake area* If this is a "new" sound that suddenly appeared on your bike, I'd go after that first. Leaking intake seals would be the first to come to my mind? Would think fouled plugs would make her hard to start, I've had that. Fixed by using the check coil function in EMCspy 4-5 times, that dried them up without removing them and was good to go again. | ||
| Reepicheep |
The throttle plate inside the intake is intact and working, correct? Those shafts can fail. | ||
| Advoutlander |
Yes the bike has been started, let to idle and shut down. I had been messing with the throttle adjustment as I had removed the risers as the throttle cable was binding. I cant use ecmspy as its an 08. The throttle plate is the flap right? It works ok but when I adjusted the throttle cable that would effect the throttle plate. I adjusted the cables so when I didnt touch the grips it was shut and any time id let go of the throttle it snapped shut when the bike was turned full left, straight and right. | ||
| Ratbuell |
1. NEVER start a buell if you aren't going to ride it for 30 minutes. You will foul spark plugs. Just let it sit. 2. When you set your throttle cables, did you do a TPS reset? Any time you change cable adjustments you need to tell the computer what you've done - and that is through a TPS reset procedure. The sucking sound could easily be from an air cleaner baseplate not put on correctly. | ||
| North_of_55 |
My '08 has been making that sneezing sound off and on since I bought it... I've spent all kinds of time diagnosing... even thrown a few parts at it... still not right. Mine lacks low end power and pops and sneezes off idle. Stalls when decelerating on occasion. I've done: EBR ECM, Iridium plugs (twice), intake seals, countless TPS resets. This spring I'm going to change the TPS. I've read several people report that this solved similar problems. Late in the fall I found some wires that were rubbing on the rear cylinder head (could see from under seat). I tied that up and it went like snot (ran like never before) for one ride... then went back to normal. I'll probably split that bundle and replace some wire in case it's damaged from years of vibration. BTW: I made my own ECM cable and ECM spy works just fine on my '08 with EBR-ECM. Let me know if you find a solution. | ||
| Etennuly |
I agree with the fouled plug diagnosis. Even with your bikes anti-foul cleaning method they are prone to leave the bike running like crap. You can put in a brand new set of plugs, cold start the bike, letting it run but not ride it, about four times before they will start to falter and not run right again. No amount of cleaning them will bring them all of the way back. You could also have carbon build up on the throttle plate edges that keep it from sealing properly. It needs to be cleaned off before doing a TPS reset or it will never run right. Combine these two problems and you could end up with a bike that you push home. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Sounds like your plate is fine. | ||
| Sharkguy |
Here is something I wrote up awhile ago on the idle air control cleanout. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/142 838/634269.htmlIt wouldn't take long and might be worth a try. You can also check out your intake plate at the same time. Do you have a shop manual? I would strongly recommend getting one before doing any more wrenching on your bike. Also like Etennuly suggested do not start your bike unless you are going to ride it. Also make sure you do a TPS reset after doing the cleanout. It is recommended to do one after any intake or electricial work, It's easy to do. Just turn the key to on position without starting the bike. Grab the throttle and go through three wide open to closed throttle sequences SLOWLY. Shut the bike off wait 10 seconds or so then you can start the bike up and go for a ride for about 20 minutes. Try and keep the revs in the 3000 range for the first ten minutes or so. So you have some homework to do. Let us know how it works out. | ||
| Sharkguy |
Oh, yeah. Make sure you don't have a varmint nest in your air cleaner...it's been known to happen. | ||
| General_ulysses |
Double stuff on the varmit's nest. Take a look at what happened to me... http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/142 838/708830.html | ||
| Advoutlander |
Ill do the tps reset. I have the service manual. You guys were right. The spark plugs were totally fouled. I replaced them and it is now running sweet. This thread is the first time ive read you cannot idle the bike without riding it. Does this apply to all a bikes and cars? | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
It's generally bad to run any engine for a short amount of time but these XB engines seem more sensitive to that than any other bike or engine I have ever heard of. The day I went to the dealership to pick up my 2008 uly, the engine started and ran on one cylinder. I guess the dealership started it and blipped the throttle a few times before handing it over to me. They said plugs were fouled. Didn't matter to me as they had to fix it. My old X1 never gave me any issues no matter how stupidly I treated it. If I messed up the starting ritual of my ironhead, it would bathe the plugs in gas pretty quickly though. | ||
| Sharkguy |
Advoutlander, The Buell can be a fickle beast. Being a large displacement air cooled engine with fuel injection can cause issues with running if not allowed to reach operating temps. Operating temperature allows the plugs to self clean. I believe the bike is running rich when cold so when you start it and let it idle it's getting a bit more fuel. Then, shutting it down before it has a chance to properly reach operating temperature the plugs have not had a chance to clean themselves and have a nice mixture of soot and unburned fuel on them. Maybe you can get away with starting it like that once or twice, maybe only once. Why take chances with it. I have a first generation BMW oilhead that is similar. I had a BMW K bike that was water cooled that would do the same thing. Cars? I don't know. Maybe someone on here who knows cars could explain that. Bikes fueling systems are behind the times compared to cars if you ask me. | ||
| General_ulysses |
I think the reason the FI large displacement air cooled engine is more sensitive to fouling than a modern FI automobile is because the air cooled Buell/Harley engine has to operate at a much wider range of temperatures. It's air cooled and only has a small cooling fan on one cylinder, so its cylinders and heads can reach very high temperatures at times. This means if the spark plug isn't cold enough (in heat range) it will get a hot spot and cause destructive preignition. So the plug has to be selected in a manner that prevents this from happening. Unfortunately. a plug cold enough to not cause preignition at the engine's highest operating temperatures (i.e. stop and go traffic in summertime) will be entirely too cold for the coldest operational moments - like starting it briefly in the winter (which engages the cold enrichment mode) and then shutting it off. The plugs will not heat up enough under these circumstances to burn off the carbon deposits caused by the cold enrichment air/fuel ratio. If the plugs were replaced with much hotter ones (i.e. with longer electrodes) this problem could be avoided. But then you'd have the problem of preignition in hotter riding conditions. So unless you want to be swapping out plugs all the time, you put in the coldest ones necessary for hot riding and then be wary about starting it in cold weather and running it for short periods of time without allowing a full warmup. In contrast, modern automotive engines are thermostatically liquid cooled and have more sophisticated FI systems. The thermal range + air/fuel ratio the plugs must operate in is much more tightly controlled and so the problems previously described for cold starting for short durations generally do not occur. This is especially true for normal cars which are not high performance and hence operate within an even more narrowly controlled temperature range. That's why I can start my Honda Civic up during the winter and take it for a leisurely 15 minute round trip to the store and never have fouling problems. That's also why I can - using the same plugs - drive in stop and go traffic in the dead of summer with no preignition or pinging at all. | ||
| Etennuly |
Let us not forget we are getting 103 horse power out of two cylinders. That is high performance from any engine. By contrast that would be equal to a 412 hp V8. I have had several small block Chevy v8 engines pushing 400 hp back in my racing days. Most of them would not idle below 1500 rpms without fouling the plugs. I never started those engines until it was time to go on the track because they would kill the plugs in a short start run cycle. True a big ass Holley carburetor was not nearly as efficient at idle as fuel injection and electronically controlled spark can be, but the same principals apply. | ||
| Uly_man |
It should also be noted that your going to have problems with oils and other things. Condensing water in the oil and corrosion of metals doing this. Not good for seals or gaskets either. This is what I found. If you are not going to use the bike for a period of more than two weeks disconnect the Neg lead. It will not go flat as the drain is just from the ECM. Otherwise use a tender. It is also not good idea to leave a half flat AGM in freezing conditions as it will kill it. (Message edited by uly_man on February 15, 2014) | ||
| Uly_man |
"Bikes fueling systems are behind the times compared to cars if you ask me". Maybe more not "quite right" than times. A bikes FI is far more complicated than a cars due to the nature of how a bike needs to work. It also needs to be able to deal with the bain of bikes IE Wiring issues and weather. It is something that worries me given all the electronic stuff they are fitting to bikes now. Being able to use something like ECM-SPY on your bike is a rare thing and not going to happen on other bikes, like a Duke, in the future. Even other makes have, still do, have problems with there FI but all are getting there now. The 06 ULY was ok but the 10 bike is superb. I can ride up hill at 40 in 5th and it still goes. Amazing. They really got it right in the end. | ||
| Arry |
Geneeral-ulysses I liked you theory and explanation, makes sense to me. I try to avoid a lot of unnecessary starting and stopping, and yet I do get away with doing short hops (less than 30 minutes, a lot of the time). I just replaced the plugs that were in the bike when I bought it (12k miles + I don't think they were new plugs when I bought the bike), the gap had widened out to .040, but it was still running fine. | ||
| General_ulysses |
Arry I've only owned my Uly for about a year now (purchased last spring). I've found that what Ratbuell says is true. If you can't ride it for 30 minutes or more, don't bother riding it at all. I tried starting a few times without really warming it up and then shutting it off. I could tell the plugs were loaded up next time I tried to start up. So now, I try to fully get it warmed up to burn the carbon off the plugs and also to drive the moisture out of the oils. I dont really want to do highway driving because the higher speeds freezes my nads off (don't have any fancy winter riding gear). Kinda hard to do in the winter because it's more difficult to get the engine and trans fluid really up to full temp. But I can still usually get the cooling fan to come on, so I figure it's probably pretty warm. Plus I put my hand on the crankcase and it feels pretty hot (and a nice hand warmer too!). I just want wait for the the weather to break to get out there and start rockin' and rolling again. And hopefully pick up a nice S1 too. | ||
| Sagehawk |
Does anyone have a sporster or big twin that is fi? Do they have the same style of starting, warmup issues? It seems as simple as a vertical intake system right over the heads , any extra fuel during the start , warmup mode hits the plugs and fouled they are. I never had a bike with fi before and I learned the hard way first year and two sets of plugs. Was curious if the horizontal intake systems were likewise? Also, depending on climate, would it behoove one to back off the fueling percentages for cold start enrichment? | ||
| Woodnbow |
I've owned several FI big twins, Electra Glides, Road Kings and Road Glides, but I can't answer your question regarding the comparison. They just never got any use during the cold season, I never start my motorcycles unless I intend to ride till they're completely warmed up, and they're not really very good short hop bikes. Anybody ever see a movie called "Big Hogs on Ice"? Me either, there's a reason for that... | ||
| Uly_man |
"Also, depending on climate, would it behoove one to back off the fueling percentages for cold start enrichment?" No as it is all built into the FI prog IE Automatic. If everything is working right you should have no problems. I have been using my bikes for short runs to work for seven years now. 10 to 15 miles in the city and for about a half hour run with no problems. I start the bike, put on helmet and gloves then ride away but do not "thrash" it until it is warmed up. The bike will heat up faster doing this than letting it idle on the stand for 5 min. I also tend to let the bike idle for about 10 seconds before switching it off and not "bliping" it before doing so either. No idea if it helps but I always have done this with bikes. Works for me. | ||
| Firemanjim |
Bike FI is way behind cars and the early Buells were really sad--07 back--- as they only had a cam sensor, no crank sensor and no IAC. Heck, my 99 Triumph Sprint had those. And I have had a couple EBR ecm's come in and the warm up fueling was too much in that it was still adding a ton of fuel when the bike was warm enough to go into "learned fuel" and skewing the AFV nearly every ride. The stock ecm had a much better warm up fuel map. | ||
| Sagehawk |
Thanks fireman jim, I apreciate the outside the box thought. Have you ever had a ecm that was not powered for 5 months and when 07 12x was brought back on line, there seemed to have no cold start enrichment like before? Did that with motor roll and hard set tps, then softset tps, checked timing etc. Bike acted like brand new, and ecm had to relearn everything . I had newest version of ecmspy to do this and 1500 miles later, still fire bike up, 1000 rpm, and timed for 4 minutes doesn't slow or idle down. But I warm up 2 minutes normally, and drive off. Bike runs fine for me. I just wonder, something in ecmspy that I don't see? My ocd has kicked in on this one. | ||
| Uly_man |
No crank sensor? That is not good. My post on FI parts quality on bikes over cars was about this? I have a 1988 BMW car and the ECM is built out of alloy and then built into an alloy box with double seals on the plugs. It has then been put into a second sealed plastic box and also fitted in a place on the car that would NEVER come into contact with water or anything else. It NEVER goes wrong and as such makes used parts worthless. No need for them. Not bad for a near 30 year old car is it? This sort of thing is something that bike makers need to address. Maybe it is just me but I would build a bike with a SINGLE Earth point, double seal plugs and Silicon wiring. But, as with everything these days, it is about money. Frame Earths were always a problem and with FI it is a big "NO NO". | ||
| Ratbuell |
It's not a "bike thing". My Jeeps, and cars, and trucks, get crappy performance on short hops. x100 in cold climates. My diesel pickup (2001 Dodge with 5.9 Cummins) drops from 21mpg in "nice" weather, to 14 mpg in the winter. I don't understand people's compulsion to start an engine and run it for 5 minutes in winter. I just don't get it. What good do they think it's doing?? You're circulating oil that's full of water condensation. You're not warming it up enough to burn off that condensation. You're not warming up the fuel system enough to close the choke (carb) or get out of cold-start enrichment (EFI), you're not thinning the intake mixture, you're not fully warming the plugs to burn off residue and fuel, you're not spinning the stator enough to put voltage back in the battery you just used to crank it over...just let the damned thing sit in the cold. It'll be FINE. Charge the battery come spring, fire it up, and RIDE IT. It's not your wife, it doesn't need five minutes' attention every 2 weeks so you feel better about yourself. Leave it sit in the garage, it'll be there when the weather warms up. And if you're going to put tools on it, either to do repairs or to farkle it...READ THE DAMNED MANUAL BEFORE YOU CHANGE STUFF. If you can't read the book FIRST...put the tools down and step away from the motorcycle. Grab a beer and call someone qualified, or read the damn book. | ||
| Tootal |
 +1 Rat! | ||
| North_of_55 |
Okay... having an '08 that has never run the way that I think it should I am going to ask a question that has been popping up in my mind since the start. Throughout my posts about my bike I have had several people say my plugs are fouled... and that they need to be changed. While I did this once (with no change) I can't help but wonder: How does an engine have "fouled" plugs yet idle smoothly, run great at higher RPM, and have a low/mid range running issues? I have a lot of experience with automotive, marine and small engines and I have never had a plug "sort of fouled". They either fire or they don't. Anyone have any insight? |
