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Buell Forum » Big, Bad & Dirty (Buell XB12X Ulysses Adventure Board) » BB&D Archives » Archive through November 02, 2013 » Engine noise.. timing retard through ecmspy « Previous Next »

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Ktmguy
Posted on Monday, September 23, 2013 - 10:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I described an engine noise in the top during low throttle input in the 2500-3200 rpm.. Seems like I was given some advice that lead me to believe it was detonation, and so I wanted to try to retard my timing through ECMSPY. SOme great guy on here gave me all kinds of advice and had done something similar and showed me screenshots. Im TRYING to search for that thread, but cant seem to search by my username, so I simply cannot find it..I cant remember if its under here or the xb12 board.. it IS a Uly. Any Help on how I can find that thread? Please?
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Teeps
Posted on Monday, September 23, 2013 - 11:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Xopti?

http://xoptiinside.com/
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Ktmguy
Posted on Monday, September 23, 2013 - 12:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Nah, I dont think that was it..
It was through ECMspy if I remember.. I was talking about retarding the timing, and the discussion went, why mess with all of it when theres only a narrow band the needs tweaking?

Is there a way to search by user?
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Ktmguy
Posted on Monday, September 23, 2013 - 01:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Found the thread, I had posted it under the xb12 board..Amazing how long you will look for information sometimes!
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Thumper1203
Posted on Monday, September 23, 2013 - 11:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hey Ktmguy, post the link if you would.. I'm kinda curious now ..
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Hughlysses
Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2013 - 06:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Interesting- so you're not mechanically retarding the timing, you're altering the spark advance curve in ECMspy. If it's not that hard to do, it might be a better fix for those 06 owners that had spark knock problems way back when.
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Reepicheep
Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2013 - 08:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Do you remember those Hugh? Were they right at 2200 RPM?

Chasing down a noise on my Uly right now, sounds like it could be pinging, but it is intermittent and only at 2200 RPM.

I was going to just retard the timing a little with the plate (I have an 07) and see if it goes away. I'm just hunting the gremlin right now.

No metal in either primary or swingarm oil, so there is hope I'm not hunting a dragon : ) )
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Hughlysses
Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2013 - 09:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I don't remember seeing a specific RPM range but that sounds about right. If your noise is pinging, it will immediately get worse under heavy throttle and go away under light throttle; that should be easy to test.

A couple of people suggested a wonky lifter was causing the problem when my noise appeared- that might be worth checking.

No metal in swingarm is VERY good. Glad to hear that.
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Ktmguy
Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2013 - 10:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Here is the previous Thread..

http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/327 77/711990.html?1368382219

Hugh / Thumper / Reepie

Sifo helped me chase this down, and I have not performed it yet, but his symptoms matched mine to perfection and it worked for him.

It makes sense, why retard the whole system and loose perfromance everywhere if its just a narrow window.
Mine comes on in the 2500,3200 range under very low throttle inputs.. A little more throttle and it goes right away. If I accelerate throught it, its never there. just light throttle (15%-20%) in those ranges. I can pull away from 1800 rpms or so in 5th gear up hill in 95 degree temps and not hear a rattle at all. This is the exact opposite of what one would expect. But again, he had EXACTLY the same symptoms, and it worked. Mine materialized after Kevin Drummer uploaded his person Bikes map to my ECM. Itr uns FANTASTIC.. I just wanna get rid of the noise.

(Message edited by ktmguy on September 25, 2013)
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Hughlysses
Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2013 - 10:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

It makes sense, why retard the whole system and loose perfromance everywhere if its just a narrow window.
Mine comes on in the 2500,3200 range under very low throttle inputs.. A little more throttle and it goes right away. If I accelerate throught it, its never there. just light throttle (15%-20%) in those ranges. I can pull away from 1800 rpms or so in 5th gear up hill in 95 degree temps and not hear a rattle at all. This is the exact opposite of what one would expect. But again, he had EXACTLY the same symptoms, and it worked. Mine materialized after Kevin Drummer uploaded his person Bikes map to my ECM. Itr uns FANTASTIC.. I just wanna get rid of the noise.


Interesting observations and what you say makes a lot of sense. I didn't think about it, but my description of ping is based on old school cars with vacuum/centrifugal ignition advance. The Buells with their ECM and TPS may exhibit completely different characteristics from the "traditional" ones.

The one thing that hasn't changed about "ping"/spark knock is the sound it makes- it sounds like someone is rapping on your cylinder heads with a ball peen hammer (I used to hear it on my S3 on occasion). It's a very "sharp" almost snapping/cracking sound.

Hopefully this will turn out to be an easy, sure-fire fix and some of the guys that mechanically retarded their timing years ago can try it out.
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Reepicheep
Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2013 - 12:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Bingo! Mine is only on light throttle also. I got home from the upper peninsula in MI by just avoiding light throttle. : )

Odd that it suddenly materialized after almost 30,000 miles.

I'll start by just backing the timing plate off to retard the timing of the whole system and see if the noise stops. If so, I'll set it back "right" and see if it comes back. If so, I'll just fix the timing at the narrow RPM range where it is a problem.

My front head does sound different then my rear head though (a bit more of a hollow / resonant popping than the rear with each rotation). So I may still pop off the front rocker box just to have a look at it. The rear head was already replaced after the accident sheared off the motor mount.
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Reepicheep
Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2013 - 12:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Ahhhhh!!! But now that I think about it, the ping type noise ***did*** show up after I was forced to run a tank of 87 octane "God knows what" gas because I was in the middle-of-freaking-nowhere with no gas left.

I've done probably 5 partial fill ups since then (typically would go 130 to 150 miles then refill). So that gas should pretty much be gone or diluted. But maybe it has some lingering effect on something.
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Uly_man
Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2013 - 02:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"Mine materialized after Kevin Drummer uploaded his person Bikes map to my ECM". I am not 100% but I would have thought this was just a fuel map change and not a timing one. Ask him about what has been changed.

"I can pull away from 1800 rpms or so in 5th gear up hill in 95 degree temps and not hear a rattle at all". This is a good indication that the timing in the ECM is changing for load as it should IE Your Earths are ok. So that is a good start.

Sifos maps are for the Buell 06 race ECM. You could give it a go but before that I would check that your timing is spot on and that you are using good fuel first.
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Ktmguy
Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2013 - 02:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yes, I certainly agree I'm not just going to plug his variables in. I'm going to use them as a guide though as far as increments to change.
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Firemanjim
Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2013 - 04:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

With ECM Spy you can go into the timing maps just like the fuel maps and make changes in just those areas.
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Reepicheep
Posted on Friday, September 27, 2013 - 08:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

And (stupid question, sorry) help me get both the terms and processes right for the record...


Advancing the timing" is changing the timing so that it actually fires later in the cycle. This fires the plugs when the air fuel mix is under higher compression, makes a bit more power, but runs the risk of pre-detonation (pinging) where the compression itself is causing ignition instead of the spark plug.

Retarding retarding timing is firing the spark sooner while the air fuel mix is less compressed. This makes a little less power but makes the compression event itself less likely to start combustion (predetonation / pinging).

And on an 07 or earlier Buell, rotating the timing plate which direction retards the timing? (I can't remember which way the crank spins when I turn the rear tire the "go forward" direction)...
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Teeps
Posted on Friday, September 27, 2013 - 01:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Advanced ignition timing is, typically, expressed as the number of degrees of crank rotation before Top Dead Center, that the spark occurs.

If we use 0 degs (or top dead center) as a reference point.
Advanced timing would spark before TDC.
Retarded timing would spark after TDC.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/ignition-system1.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignition_timing

Ulysses crank turns clockwise, as viewed from the right side of the engine.
So to retard the "base timing" the plate would be rotated clockwise.
Moving the moment of ignition closer to TDC, at TDC, or even ATDC depending on how far the plate is rotated.
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Hughlysses
Posted on Friday, September 27, 2013 - 05:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

+1 Teeps. Advancing the timing makes it "earlier", makes more power, but it can lead to spark knock/ping. Retarding the timing makes it "later", makes less power, and can cure/prevent ping.

What happens to cause ping is the spark plug ignites the mixture in the combustion chamber. The flame front/pressure wave races across the combustion chamber, compressing the remaining unburned air/fuel mixture in front of the wave. If the wave moves fast enough, it compresses the remaining mixture enough to cause it to auto-ignite (due to heat). When the two flame/pressure fronts meet, you get the "PING!" sound that we hear.

Retarding the timing reduces this effect so you only get one clean burning wave throughout the combustion chamber until the fuel/air mixture is completely consumed.
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Reepicheep
Posted on Friday, September 27, 2013 - 06:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Thanks guys! I appreciate really understanding the details.
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Reepicheep
Posted on Monday, October 07, 2013 - 11:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Update on my search...

I retarded the timing slightly. I think the 2200 rpm rattle got a little better, but didn't go away.

I dropped the oil pump (the exhaust could using painting anway) and peeked up in the cam cover at the pinion gear and the cams I can see. Everything looked perfect, including the oil (no glitter).

I removed the front isolator and closely inspected it. It had some visible wear, but no obvious tears. I just put it back on.

Now I have another "bad" feeling... I switched keychains half way through my last big ride (I take my spare set of keys with me for big trips in case one set gets lost). The other keychain has extra loops and dongles. Could it be rattling at one RPM? Hmmmm.... I'll slim it down to just the ignition key and try again.

And there is a lot of potentially rattle stuff under the flyscreen with my HID setup and horn relocation and GPS wiring and heated grip controller etc...

I should rotate the engine down and replace the plugs, but then I would be tempted to pull the front head (where the noise sounds the worst). And the noise doesn't seem bad enough to do that yet. And I was running the bike low on oil (not out low, like half a quart low), so it is possible I just got air in a lifter. And I haven't run it enough since I topped it off again to pump the lifters back up. So before I pull a head I'd like to put a few more miles on it and chase a few more things and really make sure the noise is coming from there.
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Arry
Posted on Monday, October 07, 2013 - 02:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"I should rotate the engine and replace the plugs,..."
I hope you know that you don't have to rotate the engine to replace the plugs (but if you rotate, it's a good time to do the plugs, also).
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Reepicheep
Posted on Monday, October 07, 2013 - 04:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Good point.

I did it once on my XB9 without rotating the engine... it worked, but gave me the heebie-jeebies about cross threading, mis-torquing, or dropping crap in the motor. So ever since, I just wait until I am rotating the motor for some other reason and replace the plugs then.

Good point though... this is a case where I just want to replace the plugs and nothing else. So I could do it without rotating and just be really careful again.
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Hughlysses
Posted on Monday, October 07, 2013 - 07:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

^ Bill- really, it's not too hard. You can access the front plug by removing the left side scoop. That way you can thread the new plug in by hand and have no doubts about cross-threading it. For the rear plug, you have to remove the airbox base. To install the new plug, get a ~1 foot length of gas hose (3/8"?). Push end of the hose over the spark plug, and use that to thread it into the hole. Again, you're using your fingers so you have no worries about cross-threading it and ruining the threads. If it won't screw in all the way, it's not straight so back it out and try again. Once both plugs are tightened up snug by hand, then torque them to spec.
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Pontlee77
Posted on Wednesday, October 09, 2013 - 10:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

a little anti seize grease on the threads of the spark plug is a good idea for the future.
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