| Author | Message | ||
     North_of_55 |
I have had a number of other bikes in the past that would do this from time to time, but never quite to this extent. I started it up, let it idle for 30-40 seconds, road it 100 ft across my yard, hopped off to grab my wallet from my truck and turned around to see this:  Total run time under 2 minutes. Now it wasn't bright out but the photo looks way darker than it was (cell phone). The rear pipe was also glowing, but probably 1/4 of what the front was doing. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Was it dusk? My M2 scared the heck out of me doing that once... I had just addressed a sheared exhaust stud, and was letting it idle to burn all the solvents off the head and header, and shut it down and flipped off the garage lights to see it glowing... thought I had done something horrible. Turns out it just does that. That looks really bad, but it could have been circumstance and lighting. | ||
| Danair |
Hell yes! At the beginning of my saga, ran like crap between 1500/2000. So I crank it, turn the idle screw to hold it in that range....really running bad. Turn around to get my temp gun off the bench and same thing. 20 sec max. Well, I thought, I won't be needing that as it doesn't have RFH on the display. Don't know why, when it stopped, or what I did to make it stop. These are some moody bitches........ | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
Mine does NOT do that! My X1 made a dull red glow from time to time when it was dark but never my xb12x | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Nice red ceramic coated headers  | ||
| Mrakz83 |
I've never seen mine do that... That can't be good. | ||
| North_of_55 |
THis is a bike that has never (or very rarely) run properly for me. I am wondering if there is a problem with the injectors themselves. It is leaning out all of the time? | ||
| Froggy |
I've never seen it to that extent before, but glowing red headers is normal. | ||
| Ourdee |
They do that if you don't ride off right away. My kaw 750 was real good at that. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Stare at them too long and you'll get cataracts. I'm thinking it's time to get out the marshmallows. | ||
| Portero72 |
Mine has done that occasionally, under certain conditions. Seems to happen at startup only, while idling. My 09 has 55k on it and still going strong, so I would not sweat it. I have seen other threads about this. | ||
| Dmcutter |
I think mine would do that if I was looking at it with my infrared camera... | ||
| Etennuly |
I have seen my '06 do that on warm up. My guess would be that the timing is retarded until it warms up. | ||
| Cyclonedon |
I've never seen my pipes glow, PERIOD! That's unbelievable! | ||
| Reepicheep |
Dmcutter has a point. Cell phone / camera sensors are much more sensitive to the infrared spectrum than the eye. Point your cell phone at a remote control, put it on video, and push the button... you will see the signal. I wondered if the camera made that look worse than it was. Clearly there was fairly low ambient light, and you can see from the picture the camera was struggling to gather as much light as it could to get an adequate picture. | ||
| North_of_55 |
If anything I'd say the camera dulled it down a little. Except for the awesome photo I've seen of an LC8 motor on a test stand I have never seen pipes glow as brightly as they were. | ||
| Danair |
Mine was RED, in broad daylight, all the way down to the muffler. It might not be as scary as you think. Warning….if you have something to do today, come back later. On aircraft there is a mixture control. Carbureted engines simply apply manifold pressure (vacuum, but expressed oppositely), to the float bowl chamber, thus the delta P at the venturi. Injected, fuel pressure at the nozzles. Every altitude, RPM, man press combo naturally has a fuel flow that is correct and you constantly monitor this and adjust, referencing exhaust gas temp (screw the EPA), which for this purpose is expressed in degrees rich of peak or lean of peak. Before the advent of modern EGT systems, with carbs you simply leaned until you detected a little roughness and richened a bit. Injected, you used the mfg's charts for fuel flow for that altitude, RPM, man press. Notice I keep mentioning that combo. That's because some ac also have a prop governor. Lower powered engines have a fixed pitched propeller and that's that. The 150ish hp and up have what are called constant speed propellers which have variable pitch and is constantly changing to keep the engine at the rpm you set. I know, I know......get to the point already!!! Trust me, there is one, so a little patience please... Aircraft engines are designed to make peak power around 2500 rpm. Why is that? Because the limiting factor is the prop. Above that rpm, the tips go supersonic, and basically cavitate, so instead of producing thrust, they're now producing drag, and at that pesky inverse square law. The prop governor keeps the rpm's constant, where you set it, regardless of fuel flow, man press etc. Now, the egt is really important, because no matter what you do to with the throttle and mixture, the engine stays at the same rpm……the governor masking the engine telling you that you might want to reconsider what you’re doing with all those knobs. Business was really good when these egt system became affordable for the average guy. Notoriously cheap bastards, pilots now had a tool that gave them enough info to get themselves in trouble (see danair discovers ecmspy)) and eeking out the mixture, leaning until the egt peaked and going back to the rich side. Best power (for most aircooled engines) is about 75f rich of peak, best economy 25f rich of peak. BUT, the 1st gen egt's had only one probe, and that was in the collector. One cylinder could have gone past peak and now running leaner and leaner. Go ahead and get another cup..... Burnt exhaust valves were common. Then the modern multi probe digital egt's came out, and pilots noticed that even on a perfect day, one cylinder peaked way ahead of the others, wasting fuel in the other cylinders just to keep that one cool. The solution....injector matching. Instead of one size fits all, different ones in each cylinder matching the known airflow rates of the rather crude intake systems. Make each cylinder peak at the same time and voila, no wasted fuel, smoother engine, no burned valves, and even a new gizmo in the panel to fixate upon (see danair discovers megalog). THEN some genius, defying all conventional wisdom and wives tales and lore, started tinkering with running LEAN of peak. You think oil threads are "amusing"? Now that all the cylinders are peaking at the same time and taking away the roughness from one going too lean 1st, Hell, I can just lean her till she dies and brag about how little fuel I burn. You think tire threads are "amusing"... Well, the silly bastard was right and defying the mixture Gods, now "lean of peak” is all the rage. The key?? Yes, you can by golly run at peak (1800ish) or lean thereof IF and a BIG if, you keep the power below 65%. Since you can control everything mentioned above and basically "adjust the flame" to its absolute hottest, below that power setting you're not creating enough btu's for the valve to get hot enough to burn due to its on the seat cooling between strokes. The problem… you know there had to be one (see danair’s Uly runs great but he just can’t resist)…we have 2 ignition systems and two spark plugs per cylinder. Not only redundancy, but more complete combustion. All the fuel gets burned and the exhaust gasses are starting to cool by the time the exhaust valve starts to open. The egt probe is reading already cooling exhaust and each probe must be at the same distance from the exhaust flange since I plan to operate at the hairy edge of the limits so I can brag about how fast I can go on "XX" gph. (see danair for sure found the bad sensor). A simple fouled plug is really going to ruin my day because now I don't have that complete combustion and already decreasing egt's as the valve opens, NOW I have still burning exhaust gasses going over the valve face and seat and oh lucky me, its getting even hotter till its all burned! (BIG clue….one of my exhaust stacks are red). But wait, I have this fancy gizmo that keeps me out of trouble....that I'm going to choose to ignore because "that can't be right" (see danair...never mind) The point, if you're still here.....and this is for a fuel injected, air cooled, stainless steel (Monel or Inconel), "aircraft" exhaust, the only way you are going to make a header glow, especially at idle, is by exposing it to flame, not exhaust gas……the result of incomplete combustion, more like than not caused by an ignition problem….be it fouled plug, timing, plug wire, etc End of fable… | ||
| Milo_h |
Great write-up Danair! I loved reading it. Thanks Milo  | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
Nice write-up  So he has a weak spark in the front jug? My $300 Ford Escort did a similar thing when it oil fouled a plug and I drove it home anyways. Catalytic converter was ORANGE! | ||
| Danair |
Anything that prevents the fuel charge from burning completely on the combustion cycle will do it but a retarded spark with everything else correct is the worst. "Hey, lets light this baby off right before the exhaust valve opens" Throw in some overlap and its coming out both ends, as they say. Now throw in that the cylinder right next to it shares the intake and you have a party. | ||
| Buewulf |
Never seen my '06 do that. I often let it sit there an idle as I gear up, too. | ||
| North_of_55 |
Since I have an '08 and am completely unable to alter timing... the plugs are nearly new Iridiums and I checked the wires for any signs of chafing or damage a few hundred km ago... what do I take from all of this? My EBR-ECM is retarding my timing to the point that I am sending half of my fuel charge out the exhaust valve unburnt? | ||
| Danair |
Only have experience with 06/07's. When mine did it, it was clearly not running right. Another thread hashes out timing on those with it at zero degrees warm at idle. I would think since only one cylinder is doing it is telling. Apparently mine had done it before undetected because the sheath on my new clutch cable is melted right there. Has anyone ever posted a carbureted one doing it? Had you done any work on it right before. Was it running different? | ||
| North_of_55 |
My bike generally doesn't run well... it hasn't since I bought it. These days the idle fluctuates and it sputters and coughs when it's cold. When I try to leave home it either pulls like a freight train or pops, coughs and sputters for a few minutes (even stalls while in motion sometimes). Once it's warm it runs alright but lacks power. It occasionally intake-pops and/or stalls when starting from a stop. I have to get moving (over say 30 km/h) before I can get on the throttle or it kinda bogs. Every so often it will stall at random while warm (coasting into a parking spot for ex). The other day was the one and only time that I saw the red pipes. Last week I went riding with a friend. He is my size and was riding my old DR350SE (which is no rocket ship) and he could accelerate off the line considerably faster than I could. It's Frustrating and somewhat embarrassing to ride my bike... Not a very happy Uly owner! | ||
| Danair |
A lot of us have been there, but you're in the right place. Take care of the known issues, grounds, ecm, etc and at least you'll know where you stand. They are just too fun when they're right so the effort is worth it to me. Sounds like you inherited the problem which is common. Look at the bright side.....you can't possibly have the only bike that can't be fixed..... because I'm sitting here looking at it. jk | ||
| North_of_55 |
So... having done the following: - Installed and relocated EBR ECM - changed plugs (Iridium) and checked wires for any sign of wear - Cleaned grounds (except behind flyscreen) - Changed intake seals What should I do next? After a couple of items I've read online I'm thinking I might try replacing the TPS next. I have found a list of 4 (or was it five) aftermarket versions of the TPS that sell for ~US$55-65... but of course nobody stocks an aftermarket TPS for a BMW in Northern Ontario. It looks going to cost me $147 (aftermarket) or $176 (HD Dealer) to test this theory. | ||
| Desert_bird |
Have you tried to run it with the stock ECM? (presuming that you upgraded for leisure and not necessity) (Message edited by Desert_bird on August 26, 2013) | ||
| North_of_55 |
The ECM was my first attempt at dealing with the poor performance issues. Wouldn't have been my first choice (due to price) but the resin on both connectors is separated from the ECM housing on the stock unit... and based on a whole lot of reading I felt that it was quite likely that the ECM was behind some of my issues. I could try the stocker again... but the EBR did improve things somewhat. | ||
| Danair |
Maybe you can ask someone with a properly running bike to try your old ecm in it 1st. I'm baffled there's no ecm test rig out there. Seems way cheaper and easier than replacing as many under warranty as they have not to mention shop time man hours and certainly not to mention customer good will. I mean, you would think the mfg would have to test them before they were shipped, right? Anyone know who makes them? | ||
| Desert_bird |
Happy let you take a shot with my stock '08 ECM, if you wanna give another one a run. This sounds distinctly like an ECM issue to me, given how the hardware has been covered. The ECM works fine and it would help you knock out a key variable. Could be that one in a million time when both your ECMs were funky. PM me if you wanna give it a try. I'm in NM. You can send out a self addressed box. DB |
