| Author | Message | ||
     Timbobuell |
I'm reluctant to oil post but here it goes. I have tried various oils and the one that seems to make the engine most quiet has an odd characteristic. When checking the oil hot there is much foam. Like the head of foam on a guinness. No oil light ever. Trail tech temp is lower, fan runs less. Change oil no foam, back to this brand = foam. Is this harmful? I would rather not mention the brand right away, and solicit thoughts on foam only and the potential of engine damage. | ||
| Uly_man |
Without wishing to get into a "OIL" thing myself it should be known that air/oil cooled engines are not as quiet as a water cooled engine and never will be. I found foam in the oil sometimes with HD oil and use, as I did with the 06 bike, Torco 20w50. Foam means air which is not good and I had the odd oil light come on with it. NO problem now or before with the Torco oil. It has been between 80 and 98 F here for some time and I have had no problems. | ||
| Etennuly |
A little bit of foam in the tank will not be a problem because the oil is pulled back into the engine from the bottom. A lot of foam cannot be good IMHO because if there is that much in the tank, at some point it is foaming up(running on air bubbles) before it returns to the tank. But then oil air bubbles are still carrying lubrication. I have seen some tests where the 'additive' experts use that a foaming oil is bad and a non foaming is better, but, as I recall they proved that it foamed, not that it failed in any way. | ||
| Buewulf |
"A lot of foam cannot be good IMHO" Agreed, though I don't agree with the assertion that the bubbles still carry lubrication. Most lubrication is provided by oil pressure rather than the oil itself, and you get a dramatic drop in pressure whenever air is introduced into the system as anyone who has ever squeezed on an improperly bled brake can attest to. Even if there isn't enough pressure drop across the system as a whole to trigger the oil light, pressure may still become insufficient across certain passages or critical components and cause metal-to-metal contact. I personally would discontinue using that particular oil. Just my opinion. | ||
| Teeps |
Over the last 28k miles I've used several different oil brands and weights. I've never seen foam on the dip stick, or in the tank. I'm "guessing" that the oil that foams may be too thin at operating temperatures? Another thought; there is an air leak in the scavenging system. | ||
| Timbobuell |
thanks, good input. As far as an air leak, it is only with a certain brand of oil. All other oils have no foam. I ran this oil before and had the same problem. Switch brands and it goes away. I only came back to this oil because it has such a great reputation. I will not run it again, two strikes, however I posted in an effort to determine if I should drain now or wait until next normal change. 500 miles on this bubbly oil. Average oil changes for me 2500. Rarely ride less than 100 miles, usually 200 per ride. Bike ironically runs the best [temps, sound, idle] on this bubble oil. Checked hot and foam runs down swingarm. Not over or under filled. | ||
| Teeps |
Understood. Now I'm curious what brand of oil? | ||
| Buewulf |
What is the grade of that oil? I would guess the same as Teeps that it is too thin during operation. That would explain the better cooling and idling. Oh, and I would drain it if it were my bike. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
Don't run Tide in your oil tank. That's for washing laundry. | ||
| Satori |
I would drain the oil, and use one that you haven't had this issue with. One thing to look at also, just because you are using the correct viscosity, i.e. 20w50 doesn't mean its the correct grade.That is the designation after the viscosity. Check your owners manual and use that grade or better. Oh and the "w" doesn't stand for weight, it stands for Winter,  | ||
| Timbobuell |
It's time to reveal the foamy oil. Some will be angry. The oil that I shall drain out after 500 miles and never use again Amsoil 20w50 Thanks for the input. | ||
| Shagg1970 |
I have ran Amsoil 20w50 in both holes since 5000 miles and never has any issues. before that ran it in all 3 holes on a 2002 HD soft tail with no issues, also helps the trans shift smoother. Just my two cents worth. | ||
| Buewulf |
The only other instance I have ever heard of foamy oil was, coincidentally or not, also Amsoil 20w50 in a friend's Yamaha Warrior. After all kinds of lashing about how he must have mixed oils, didn't ride long enough to bake the condensation out, was somehow getting too much contamination past the rings, was just trying to slam a great American product, etc., etc., a change in brand also remedied his foaming problem. I don't have any experience with Amsoil products, but I'd have to imagine this is somewhere way outside the norm. Amsoil would probably appreciate knowing about your experience. They may have had a run with out of spec or improperly metered defoamant. | ||
| Brighton |
I blame Obama and those bleeping Democrats. | ||
| Hughlysses |
I wonder if oil level isn't more of a factor than oil type. If too much oil is staying in the bottom of the cases (I know it's a dry sump engine), the crank could be whipping it up and causing the foaming. Might be another good reason to keep your oil level on the bottom half of the dipstick. | ||
| Uly_man |
Ok. I had a 06 bike and I am sure it was original oil as the bike only had 1500 miles on it. I changed it with Torco oil and is was fine to the 14k I had it. When I went to look at the 10 bike I found that the bike oil was over filled and with some foam. The oil light came on every now and then. The past owner may have use another oil but it only had 2500 miles on the bike. Who knows what people do? It came with a FST so they did some things to it from new. I removed some of the oil but still had some foaming. It went to HD for some warranty work and I had the 5k service done at the same time. It was fine after that and has been since the change at 7500 miles. One thing that IS A FACT? Do not keep changing from one oil type to another. And YES it does say that in the book. | ||
| Buewulf |
"I wonder if oil level isn't more of a factor than oil type." He only experienced the foaming with one particular brand. So unless he only overfilled it during those two oil changes, I am not sure that is the problem in this particular case. | ||
| Mark_weiss |
Have you checked with Amsoil? | ||
| Sagehawk |
Curious as to any oil on other end of motor, the breathers? Was air cleaner getting the wet end of tubes? Manual states of two ways oil returns to scavenge pump. Directly from passage in crank area and back of oil pump in timing chest from upper end drainback. Out of curiosity, has anyone had issues with the reed valve that separates the crankcase from timing chest. A little off the thread subject but as hughlysses pointed out, any oil that stays too long in the chest get chewed and chewed on with areation as the end result. Seems all oils used would be that way tho. | ||
| Othrider |
www.sscycle.com/oil just started advertising 25w60 engine oil - it's made by spectro in usa -haven't tried it yet, has anyone else? | ||
| Timbobuell |
To answer the question reference calling Amsoil. Just spoke with tech D Wallace, (Amsoil), DW says its normal since the bubbles go away quickly after shutdown. | ||
| Teeps |
Timbobuell Posted on Friday, August 09, 2013 - 02:17 pm: Just spoke with tech D Wallace, (Amsoil), DW says its normal since the bubbles go away quickly after shutdown. I never knew it was ok for oil to foam; except during laboratory testing... I need convincing, that oil foaming during normal use is normal; I'm throwing the B.S.Flag on this play. http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/255/oil-foam (Message edited by teeps on August 09, 2013) | ||
| Uly_man |
All I do know is that the oil was foaming in my bikes swing arm and the engine oil light would come on every now and then. Now it maybe just be me but that would indicate air in the oiling system. Foam on the surface is one thing but it will also, in very tiny bubbles, be in the oil itself and unlike dirt it will pass through the oil filter and back into the engine. You can compress air but NOT a fluid. Any pockets of air, no matter how tiny, in a oiling system will affect how well that oil will lube the engine. Yes I may be mad but I am not insane. There is no way on this Earth that I will I try to run "metal on metal" on anything and no less an engine. It is 101 basic mechanical engineering. | ||
| Buewulf |
"DW says its normal since the bubbles go away quickly after shutdown." Who cares how quickly the bubbles go away after shutdown? I'd be much more interested in how quickly (and abundantly) they are forming and collecting during operation. I'm with Teeps. Sumpin' ain't right. | ||
| Mark_weiss |
All dry-sump motors aerate the oil. In keeping the crankcase nearly empty, the scavenge pump(s) necessarily pick up a fair bit of air. Oil with more detergent is more prone to foaming. Apparently Amsoil has less de-foaming additive than most. Any ideas on what EBR does? Amsoil is clearly a sponsor and generally, that means that the product is actually used. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
I would assume that since the bubbles are filled with air, they tend to collect at the top of the tank. So the oil being fed to the engine is from under the bubbles. It's probably just a byproduct of the increased film strength of the magical synthetic stuff. I don't think our engines are as picky as you guys seem to think they are. | ||
| Sagehawk |
If you can believe an ad Mark, the amsoil book i recieved has Eric saying that they use the Dominator 15w-50 racing oil in the ebr bikes. probably a different formulation than the 20w-50 or 60wt. oil that 'we' normally use. A 16 year old road king of mine plugged off a oil filter during a 160 mile ride one sunday eve. no oil out breathers but that motor was smoking hot. put pan under filter, pulled filter and fired motor off with all kinds of foam drooling out. finally liquid oil started out but i ran a good quart and a half into drain pan flushing timing chest and oil pump. | ||
| Timbobuell |
***Warning*** Some may find picture offensive Ambient temp 83 Bike ridden steady for 25 miles at 50mph. 500 miles on oil. Oil level on low side, just Will touch dip stick cold. Oil checked immediately after shutdown. Amsoil aware and says All ok, good to go.  | ||
| Mark_weiss |
That looks an awful lot like there's moisture in there. | ||
| Sagehawk |
Timbobuell: have you checked vent line from oil tank to motor for blockage? Did all that just overrun out of tank when plug was pulled? Have you checked air cleaner for breather puking? Just thoughts as wifes sporster return oil has the foamed look within the other oil after a good ride. But larger, different tank, and oil light has never flickered. |
