| Author | Message | ||
     Uly_dude |
Hi. Long time reader, occasional contributor. I have one of those kurvorkian LEDs in my instrument cluster that stays solid green when everything is fine with the charging system. Everyone with a Uly should have one of these. Well it started blinking yellow and then red when idling and the headlight is on. Yes I can turn my headlight on and off. When I rev the engine just a little it goes solid green. When I turn off the headlight at idle, it'll go solid green. I have a brand new compufire VR installed, original stator, original battery. I just got a new battery today. Let's face it, the original was 7 yrs old and getting a bit long in the tooth. The new battery didn't change things. So then I quickly and easily plugged my old OEM VR back in and started her, no improvement. So I'm pretty sure it's not the VR or the battery. Wires and connections all look good from the outside. Is it safe now to assume my stator is going bad? Do they do that, slowly go bad? And is it ok to keep riding it as long as I keep my revs up? Or am I going to wreck something? I can't believe it. It finally stopped raining here in MN and now I have to take it out of service to replace that stator. Any other ideas or thoughts before I crack open the primary?? This sucks. Just glad I've got my little LED...... being stranded would've really bitten the big one! | ||
| Hughlysses |
It seems like most of them that fail, fail pretty quickly, but I suppose a slow failure is possible. The first thing I'd do is the stator checks from the shop manual. IIRC, that includes continuity checks from each phase to ground (you don't want continuity there), resistance checks across each phase (you want low resistance) and then a voltage check with the engine running between each 2 phases (you want a certain minimum voltage). Of course, you can always do the smell test- open the primary and if it smells like something died in there, your stator is likely fried. If those checks are OK, I'd look elsewhere. | ||
| Ratbuell |
+1 on performing the actual tests, instead of being "pretty sure" and throwing expensive parts at a possible non-problem. 77 connector? If it's hot, it'll unplug normally even if it's fried. Try it cold, and it'll be welded together. DAMHIK. | ||
| Tootal |
Any other ideas or thoughts before I crack open the primary?? This sucks. If it test bad and you have to tear it open you might like the XB9 conversion while you have it all apart?  | ||
| Uly_dude |
Thanks for the input guys. I'll probably do those tests this weekend, or for sure before tearing into the primary. I replaced the 77 connector long time ago. If there's one thing you learn from this forum, it's the charging system is a weak link, so I got after that and the VR as soon as I could. But two important questions(to me); Can I continue to drive the bike while I wait for parts or winter? I mean 90% of the time the revs are up and I've got a solid green. Or will that little bit of blinking red time destroy the battery or the VR? Also, who makes the best stator for our bikes? I'm not so sure I want to buy OEM stuff when it fails so often. I only have 16k miles on this puppy! | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
Usually when stators go bad, they have a failure cascade wherein heat builds up from a short and makes more heat, making a worse short. Perhaps yours is one of the rare cases that have one of the three windings pop open so that you are 2/3 power. BTW, that failure cascade mentioned above will smell bad so the easiest test for that is the "sniff test". Open the primary chain inspection hole with two screws and take a whiff. Whatever is wrong with your bike, I strongly suggest not using it until you figure out what it is. Fear the unknown. | ||
| Froggy |
If that happens you are at 1/3 power as you lose two phases. The 1125s with the "recall harness" switch off one leg which kills two phases to keep the stator cooler. With 3 phase systems (A-B, B-C, A-C), if you lost connection in C, you only have A-B remaining. | ||
| Blitzer454 |
I have the same problem with my bike, but always assumed it was normal. Well, normal in the sense that my idle is set around 900 RPM. If I increase the idle RPM to 1150 (recommended setting) the LED is solid green. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
Oh yeah frogmaster. I forgot the "center" isn't supposed to be grounded. My 2008 uly has a subtle thing now too. My own kuryakin thingy dropped a green LED. It always used to have two of the three greens lit but now it's at one LED when idling. Perhaps mine is on the way out too? It's been 3000 miles since it stopped lighting that LED at idle. I'm starting to lean towards my issue being the kuryakin toy since I fluked the battery and the voltages seem OK to me. | ||
| Uly_dude |
Here's a question. I'm looking at stators and rotors at the Compufire website. http://www.compufire.com/index.php?option=com_cont ent&view=article&id=7&Itemid=15 Are our engines considered the "EVO" or the "Twin Cam" type?? They show a different stator for each type of engine. Thanks. | ||
| Uly_man |
Yes do the tests but? For the charging system to start working the bike needs to be at 1050 rpm plus. I would also, if you can, run a log with ECM-SPY or other to monitor the voltage output. This will vary from 14 to 15.1 volts and it will be ok as long as the volts do not go past 15.1 for any length of time or "spike" a lot past 15.1 volts. Kuryakyn's LED Battery Gauge lets you know if your motorcycle's charging system is working with just a glance Green LED indicates normal operating range of 12.5 to 14.5V Amber LED warns the bike is not charging If reading drops below 10V or exceeds 15V, flashing red LED alerts the rider. These devices can be very sensitive to voltage and are best fitted directly across the battery. If not they can "pick-up" drain from other components IE The lights and may give a false reading. Also a bad connection in the wiring of this device to the bike can do the same. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
I have mine wired to the back of the cigarette lighter behind the dash. It's been very predictable and boring for many thousands of miles. Previously, the only times that second LED would go out for me is if I was running the two 55W driving lights in traffic or if I was using heated liner with it cranked up all the way. | ||
| Uly_man |
Well that, do you not think, proves that the device is NOT showing you a true charge voltage. Even if you are not using these things others things like the fan, ECM and the like will be. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Suggested idle speed is 1050, for proper oil circulation/cooling, lifter pressure, and charging system output. If you want a "rump-rump-rump" idle cadence...spend money for a set of cams. Don't starve your engine of oil. That said, all the proper charging system tests are at a higher RPM - none are checked at idle speed. Start at the source - test the stator output per the book. Work your way through the system from there, methodically. Chances are, you don't have a failed stator and the issue is somewhere else. | ||
| Uly_dude |
OK, I did the tests. I have a failed stator. The ground test was good, but the resistance test between 1 and 2 read a big fat zero. The other 2(2-3,3-1) were right on. Then I started up the beast. Between 1-2 I was getting only 4v on idle and 10v when reving it up. The other 2 were 18v and 38v respectively. So the LED thingy does not lie! I'm thinking of getting the stator from compufire, maybe even their rotor for good measure. This OEM stuff seems to be inferior. It's about the same cost and it puts out 40amps. I just have to figure out which stator to get, the "EVO" motor or the "twin cam" motor. Anyone know the answer to that? If I have to I'll email Compufire, but they're not the most responsive bunch. | ||
| Froggy |
Compufire has a habit of stopping to communicate after you say Buell. | ||
| Uly_man |
If it was me I would use there rotor and stator set up as they will be a matched pair IE Designed to work together. I am sure they will tell you the type you need if asked. Or maybe not. (Message edited by uly_man on August 10, 2013) | ||
| Ratbuell |
"Twin Cam" is a Harley "Big Twin" - the 88" motor, then 96", now up to 110" in some models. "Evo" technically is the old 1340 motor. There was an Evo Sportster motor...but not sure if that translates over to our bikes or not. I'd just go OEM - I have the Kuryakyn gauge as well. My Uly is an 06. My 77 went out one night - fixed it the next morning, no other damage (this was probably...oh...six years ago). Then I noticed the "one green" symptom earlier this season, so I did the stator tests ASAP and turns out it was my VR. I installed a Shindengen MOSFET VR (there's a writeup on here) as soon as I diagnosed it, and no other damage. 30k on the bike, nothing but Syn3 fluids its whole life. I strongly suspect that damage to other components, gone undetected/unaddressed for long enough, is what kills stators (that, and the wrong fluid in a primary). Either that, or you're running a honkin' lot of accessories on the bike and it's overloaded. I run Buell heated grips. Buell GPS. Gerbings heated thermostat with heated jacket and gloves. HID low beam. 35W aux lights toggled with the high beam. And at 30k miles...I still have my OEM stator. And my OEM battery. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
OK I'll test mine as well. | ||
| Uly_man |
"I strongly suspect that damage to other components, gone undetected/unaddressed for long enough, is what kills stators (that, and the wrong fluid in a primary)". As do I. And that goes for the rest of the bike as well. Any bike has a hard life due the the various conditions it needs to work under. The Uly, I think, is a great combination of high tech mechanics, solid/well built and low cost simple/easy to maintain. The bike does not need much looking after but what it DOES need is a good checking over every now and then. Just things like checking the battery terminals are tight, wire damage, lubing a few points and the like. It is easy, quick and will cost next to nothing. You should do it with any bike but the Uly needs it more. Ignore it at your peril. The wheel bearings are a case in point. They will NOT instantly fail unless they were not fitted right in the first place. If you check them often enough you should be able to detect any wear and then be able to "head off" any problems by changing them out. It is a well known fact that as a bikes components wear people will adjust to them IE Suspension. The trick, and I know it is hard, is to remember what the bike should be like. All bikes have there "thing". Some it is charging, some it is head bearings or many other things. That is just the way it is with bikes. You could get a million miles out of any bike but you WILL NOT do so without doing some work to it. Look after your bike and it will look after you. Ride well, ride safe. | ||
| Uly_dude |
Good advice all around. For the record, I do maintain this bike meticulously(sp?). Every winter I tear it down and put it back together, usually throwing in one or two big projects(this winter the 08 fork clamps and fork rebuild). I read this forum just to learn what I need to keep up with all the little issues with this bike and take everyone's issues/ideas seriously. There's some great knowledge out here. It's because of this I put the LED thingy in, and glad I did. I do not have hardly any gizmos on my bike. No extra lights, no gps. OEM Heated grips and I rarely use them. I've only put Amsoil in the primary. Being the second owner I can't attest to the PO fluids, but the LED showed good for the last 3 yrs up til now. I know it's not the VR or the 77 connector cause I replaced those yrs ago. For the most part I baby this bike, ride it to work 3 times a week and keep my finger on its pulse very well. It's like a girlfriend! But there's just too many complaints about charging systems on this bike for me to spend another $150 on a OEM stator. If I can figure out which stator to buy I'm going with the compufire. I did put a question into them, see what that yields. Sorry Froggy, I had to mention BUELL. I couldn't figure out how not to. Thanks for trying to help Ratbuell. I'll get to the bottom of it and figure it out. I'll report back when I find something out. | ||
| Uly_man |
I guess I will get my ass kicked for this? I do not do the miles on a bike like you Guys in the US do, maybe 8k a year, but I am going to make a point of getting 50k plus out of the Uly. Now you Guys may think that is nothing on a bike but in the UK a bike with 50k on it is worth less than a Big Mac even with the fries? So to me spending money on it now for the future is worth it. I will, at some point, need to replace the Uly but it will be hard to do so for the money. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Because the Buell VR is a shunt regulator, "loading" the electrical system should actually cause less stator wear, not more. (Provided the Buell system really is a shunt regulator, that is common wisdom, but I've never seen an actual schematic.) | ||
| Uly_man |
"should actually cause less stator wear, not more". What wear would that be then. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Thermal wear on the insulation. The way we *believe* the VR works is that when the current is climbing due to the increasing magnetic field (a sine wave of increasing current) the voltage also climbs. This continues until the voltage hits the "trigger point" of maximum voltage the regulator is designed to allow, say 15 volts. Power (watts) measures heat. It can be calculated as I (current) squared times resistance. So right before this moment the regulator goes into shunt mode, the heat the stator sees is measured as X amps squared times the resistance of the stator windings. And at this moment, the stator has a potential voltage of at least 15 volts. Now picture the moment after the regulator goes into shunt mode. Basically, you electronically walked up to that stator output and slapped a wrench across the terminals, shorting them out. It seems to me that at this point, the current goes *up* because you took away that last 15V of resistance that was outside the stator and dead shorted the poor thing. Any increase in current (I) causes an increase in stator heat by a squared factor. The heat degrades the insulation of the individual stator windings until the insulation degrades and the windings start to short. At which point you have an even hotter short, and the start of a death spiral to complete stator failure. I think. I'd want to see a real VR schematic first, followed by empirical validations to be sure, but they would be expensive and time consuming. | ||
| Reepicheep |
So the best wear scenario for the stator is when the system is externally fully loaded... and the sine wave voltage output from the fully loaded stator never quite gets right to the edge of the "trip point" for the voltage regulator, but never quite trips it. Of course in that case, you will be undercharging at any lower RPM, so you can't actually run that way. | ||
| Danair |
As discussed in my "electrical opinions sought" thread, my replacement stator had the clearance issue &%#*&^. Stealership brought another in under warranty.....same friggin deal. I sent them all the knowledge out there with pictures even but of course Harley does't need to hear that. I did this in the hopes that whoever shipped the new on would look at the "27 8x10 color photographs, with circles and arrows, and a paragraph on the back of each one, explaining what each one was, to be used as evidence against us" and not send the same thing. 20 minutes on the phone making sure he got the email and pix. Go to pick it up and voila...same. *^*^#% Never opened the email. I coaxed him into reading it at the counter so he could cipher the problem. The light came on but I doubt that will flow up the chain. Watch out for this clearance issue, or better yet, But it from Al at American Sport Bike as he includes a perfectly detailed letter with pix showing the gotcha. DON'T just buy it from Harley and slap it on. End rant........ | ||
| Reepicheep |
How frustrating. I wonder how many times those bad stators will just be re-shipped out to some other poor Buell owner... | ||
| Nobuell |
My 08 stator died when on a ride at about 34k miles. I have a voltmeter that I watch when riding. It went out at one time and the charging light went on. I installed a headlight switch when installing HID lights so I was able to ride 30 miles to a dealer on battery power. I was flogging the bike pretty hard when it failed. | ||
| Uly_man |
"The heat degrades the insulation of the individual stator windings until the insulation degrades and the windings start to short. At which point you have an even hotter short, and the start of a death spiral to complete stator failure". This is true and is caused by the windings insulation breaking down due to being over hot because of the wrong primary oil (the cooling medium), lack of, or damage to the windings insulation. A common issue with the early 1125Rs in some hotter conditions. |
